Another discovery - css does preserve bandwith?

N

Neal

Just found brilliant article about css...

"Why style sheets are harmful"

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/styles/harmful.html

"Date of original creation: 1997-04-16. Last update of this page:
2001-10-10."

(Don't know what was updated, actually.)

Typical quote: " Most browsers do not support style sheets yet, there is
no guarantee that they will do and do it correctly, and in particular they
might discard the difficult concept of cascade - but just in the wrong
way, ignoring user declarations."

Anything about stylesheets LESS than 7 years old, and reflecting CSS2,
which only came into effect 12-May-1998, or over a year after the article
was written?
 
R

rf

Neal said:
"Date of original creation: 1997-04-16. Last update of this page:
2001-10-10."

(Don't know what was updated, actually.)

The last update date of course :)
Typical quote: " Most browsers do not support style sheets yet, there is
no guarantee that they will do and do it correctly, and in particular they
might discard the difficult concept of cascade - but just in the wrong
way, ignoring user declarations."

Jukka has I belive changed his views a little since he wrote that. He most
certainly does not argue *against* css these days, although who can tell, he
argues against anything.

In any event the thrust of his agument is not against css in particular but
the ease with which it leaves too much control in the hands of the author.
This is still the case. Authors can use the correct amount of css and build
a good page or they can go overboard like a control freak and build pages
that are inaccessible and which do not work with any browser except that
microsoft one. The same sort of argument was raised by the purists years ago
when the <font> element was introduced: "What is wrong with plain old
ascii?" they said..

The philosophy of the article still has some bearing, but not the way the
person who quoted the article in this thread thinks.
 
T

tm

You are kidding. Good, I'd have to kill you. ;) But just in case - what
about it do you feel is ugly?

I find the colors ugly. Depressing puke-greens that remind me of being
forced to eat over-cooked okra and listen to classical music at
grandma's house.
But maybe that's what you are going for?
 
H

Henry

Neal said:
Well, I threw this together in about a half hour. The job is far from
complete, but it shows the basics of how to do this.

http://users.rcn.com/neal413/boxedarttest.html

Feel free to ask or improve, all.



It's 'boxed' for sure.

When will become an art, let me know!

:)


BTW. To colour candy. Black, gray and white could do the job of
informing what BoxedArt is.

Actually nice, simple layout.

:)
 
N

Neal

It's 'boxed' for sure.

When will become an art, let me know!

:)

Well, I'm not going to continue it, it's just to show you how simple it
would be to do this in CSS. Of course, I'd use better colors, and the
borders on the boxes would have rounded corners, and the font sizes can be
changed somewhat, etc. etc.
BTW. To colour candy. Black, gray and white could do the job of
informing what BoxedArt is.

Not sure what you mean here...
Actually nice, simple layout.

:)

And easy - as I said, I banged this out in a half hour. Some folks here
could do it in less.
 
J

Jan Faerber

brucie said:
In alt.html Jan Faerber said:


a sasquatch wondered through the group yesterday leading the loch ness
monster on a leash. apart from that no, you didn't miss anything.


Did it look somehow like this?

(o o)
(__)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(___)
 
B

brucie

In alt.html Jan Faerber said:
Did it look somehow like this?

(o o)
(__)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(_)
(___)

close but with more humps. i was so surprised i forgot to take a
screencap. i'm almost positive bin laden was riding on its back.
 
J

Jan Faerber

brucie said:
close but with more humps. i was so surprised i forgot to take a
screencap. i'm almost positive bin laden was riding on its back.

For such cases it would be very good to have a 24 hour
alt.html internet radio channel with broadcasts concerning css,
w3c standards, etc.(frames - no frames/javascript shortcuts/...)
and then always a sudden news flash or alert information
about viruses, worms connected with police blue lights on
top of the physical screen and maybe a pager message.
 
H

Henry

Nik said:



Hard to read, not liquid, huge margin at RH side, waste of space, does
not look very pro.

Web design is DTP on much higher artistic and technological level.

Web design is DTP with more medium to be used and higher demand than
typical paper DTP. With more bandwidth available there will more
animations, music, Flash etc.

It's happening all ready and nothing will stop people loving it.

10 years from now and 90% web sites will be in Flash, most likely,
unless someone will develop even smarter way to make great, full of
colors and animations pages.

Can't accept progress? Be a taxi driver.

Web design is an art done by artists.

Coder is just a job, like taxi driver, blacksmith, spray painter etc.

Just make sure the design is displayed properly in as many browsers as
possible.

The same way like keyboard player is just a job. An artist in the music
is someone who does create, compose the music.

We call them all 'artists' but true artists are creators of something
new and unique.


The biggest artist, the harder to copy and imitate.


Cheers...
 
B

Beauregard T. Shagnasty

Quoth the raven Mark Parnell:
No one here is "pushing" you into anything. They are simply trying
to explain why CSS-based layouts are better than tables. If you
don't want to listen, that's up to you.

I just stumbled across a mainstream site this morning that really
surprised me. It has no tables. It is XHTML 1.0 and validates! It is a
nice design, suitable for its audience. It has no tables. It uses
JavaScript menus but works perfectly if js is disabled. It has no tables.

There are a few things I would do differently, such as not using <p>
for short phrases, and I might look into making it float instead of
fixed at 800px wide. But all in all, I think it is a nice job.

http://www.chevrolet.com/
 
T

Travis Newbury

Hopefully somewhat less graphic intensive. It took about a minute to
load on broadband. I dread to think how long it would take on dialup.

I completely agree about the number of images! I think what I miss the
most about an all CSS layout is the artistic-ness (is that a word) of
the pages. Most sites examples that appear in this group are rather
bland and boxy.

I have seen a few all CSS pages that are not that way (Zen garden is
headed in the right direction). But even some of these lack what I
would consider a commercial polished look.

A good example of what I like to see is http://www.chevrolet.com/ (I
think Beauregard offered it earlier)

I think a web developer who possesses not only the ability to code
correctly, but also has the graphic arts background and dare I say it
Marketing skills, would be golden.
 
T

Travis Newbury

The danger in your position is that when someone makes a site the right
way which is designed as well as yours and offers similar content, they'll
leave you in the dust because the page will work better.

Can you show an example of that happening? Where a company with a more
vanilla but easier to use page became more popular than a fancy one. I
could (most of us could) use that as an example because most new
customers are going to want fancy when they walk in the door, and we
have to get them on the accessible track.

Right now we show screen shots of the same site with different browsers
to get the idea across. Showing an example where a big company went
from fancy to accessibility it would be great.
 
N

Neal

Can you show an example of that happening? Where a company with a more
vanilla but easier to use page became more popular than a fancy one.

Mind you, that's not the comparison I'm after.

Let me restate: Assuming an equally attractive graphic design, and equal
content, the site which is more usable due to its having been written from
a more standards-oriented approach will have an obvious edge.
I
could (most of us could) use that as an example because most new
customers are going to want fancy when they walk in the door, and we
have to get them on the accessible track.

Why not attractive design AND accessibility/usability?
Right now we show screen shots of the same site with different browsers
to get the idea across. Showing an example where a big company went
from fancy to accessibility it would be great.

Here's what I can tell you.

The site I'm redesigning - in its original form, it barely got hits, it
wwasn't indexed in many search engines. After I redid it to standards, SEO
was automatically improved, and more people are hitting it more often.

I can't offer a site which proves the point - after all, that would likely
be impossible to do. For a large company, the site's success is such a
small facet of their marketing plan I can't imagine how to measure the
company's success against the website's design. For smaller niche
companies, there's often nothing else out there to compare it to.

However, let's use common sense as a reference point. Unless the content
is so specialized it cannot be truly duplicated anywhere, the faster site
is better than the slower site. The slower the site, the higher the
likelihood the visitor goes elsewhere.

Sites which use table layout are inherently heavier over the long haul
than CSS layout sites. Reason: table layout is re-downloaded with each
page, CSS is cached.

Studies prove that users either need to enlarge the text to read the
content, or they don't. So provide resizeable text. And, as this is
normally the basis of the content of the site, all design must be done
around the proviso that the user should be able to resize the text.

Fluid, text-size-based design and CSS layout is, without argument, more
accomodating to the user. Better accomodation means the user will have an
easier experience. Couple that with quality content the user wants, and if
that doesn't translate into sales, I don't know what will.

I recently showed how the boxedart page could be redesigned in semantic
HTML and CSS. See also [http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slashdot/] and
[http://www.alistapart.com/articles/slashdot2/]. This so clearly makes the
page more easily usable. How to test whether it is or not, I haven't the
knowledge or means. But if we accept that ease of use and speed of
download equate to more positive visitor experience, the conclusion is
unavoidable.

Those who bemoan the lack of inspiration in CSS designs are really
noticing that few talented graphic designers have really learned how to do
CSS layouts. Not being a graphic designer, I'm not well positioned to
remedy that. Hopefully, someone who is would be willing to step up to the
plate. It's clear to me that CSS layout can indeed be used to create
attractive layouts which appeal to users and rival the most attractive
table-layout websites out there.
 
B

Brendan Taylor

Right now we show screen shots of the same site with different browsers
to get the idea across. Showing an example where a big company went
from fancy to accessibility it would be great.

I don't understand where people get the idea that "fancy" and "accessible"
are mutually exclusive.
 
S

Spartanicus

Brendan Taylor said:
I don't understand where people get the idea that "fancy" and "accessible"
are mutually exclusive.

An artistic talent and a technical talent don't happily coexist in the
same person, hence sites made by dezigners are poorly coded, and
properly coded sites are bland to look at.

Smart people form teams with a dezigner and a coder.
 

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