Are there any Free C Standard Documents ?

[Ben Pfaff]

Do you have school libraries? How much are your textbooks?

Even the Stanford library doesn't have ISO standard documents as
far as I know. At least, "9899-1999" turns up nothing relevant
in the library search. So I don't think it's realistic to expect
an Indian library to contain the C standard.

 

[Dale Henderson]

AB> On 6 Jul 2004 06:44:17 -0700, (e-mail address removed)
AB> (Prafulla H)
AB> wrote:


AB> ... How much are your textbooks?

Probably pretty cheap. (At least by western standards). I know a
fellow student from Sri Lanka who had an "Eastern Economy
Edition" of a book that cost me 100 USD. He told me the price in
Rupees. It came out to around 6 USD. (Might have been less I'm
not sure). And thats not the only EEE book I've seen.

 

[Randy Howard]

That's 853 rupees. That's more than a week's wages for a lot of folks
there.

Then they should find a job in which the requisite information reflects
a smaller percentage of their take home pay, or expect their manager
to buy it for them.

OP: Get your whole gang together, take a collection, buy a copy, make
copies, & go about your business.

You really don't get this, do you?

 

[Randy Howard]

Likewise, for the case of the Indian student, there are freely available
(and, therefore, affordable) copies of the last public draft of both C89
and C99. Although they're perfectly adequate for the needs of a student,
neither Randy, nor you bothered to point the OP in the right direction.
Could it be that you're still despising the Indian students?

Spare me Dan, he asked for "the standard", not the closest approximation.
Don't start spewing political correctness instead.

 

[Randy Howard]

Do you realise what $18 could mean to a poor Indian student?

I remember what it meant to me when I was a poor American student. I
didn't steal documents to get around the problem. It is published
in book form. Perhaps it is available in a local library.

 

[Aslam Sheikh Durrani]

Besides, the fact that someone can't afford something does not, by

itself, mean that they should get it for free. I can't afford a new
Mercedes Benz. Does anyone know where I could get one for free?

This is typical idiotic stuff from Joona .
If you cannot help the OP then shut up. Usenet postings should not be
used to suffice your daily need to shout at someone. If a student has
a sincere desire to learn then one should help him out. Just what
value add do such postings make other than rants and cribs...
I agree plagiarism and stealing are bad things but your example is
making mockery of a innocent Usenet fella.
Do get some manners before posting(insulting) Usenet Newbies.
I stay in Pakistan and I think $18 is a fortune for most countries
including Pakistan.

 

[Ravi Uday]

Do you realise what $18 could mean to a poor Indian student?

Dan

To add to that what i dont understand is - since C99 is gaining more popularity
and seems like it would replace C89..
why dont the committee (or somebody) make C89 available publicly..

- Ravi

 

[Allin Cottrell]

To add to that what i dont understand is - since C99 is gaining more popularity
and seems like it would replace C89..
why dont the committee (or somebody) make C89 available publicly..

I believe it would be a Good Thing if the C standard were available as
a free download; nonetheless, your argument is not very persuasive:
there's scant evidence that C99 is "gaining popularity" and is ready
to "replace C89". There's more evidence at this point for the
hypothesis that the C99 standard was basically abortive, and may
never truly replace C89.

Allin Cottrell

 

[Prafulla H]

Hardly any schools have libraries in true sense. Things are not all
that very rosy. If you know anybdy of Indian origin, you can discuss
this point at length in your spare time.

Even the Stanford library doesn't have ISO standard documents as
far as I know. At least, "9899-1999" turns up nothing relevant
in the library search. So I don't think it's realistic to expect
an Indian library to contain the C standard.

Absolutely, ben. Frankly speaking, i do have access to C99, but
seldomly do i read it. clc (and clc archives) is a place where one can
find a lot of information about virtually any topic, with examples and
expert comments.

In fact me and my friends spend our weekends discussing about some
mails that appear on USENET.

To the OP: If you want information about a partcular topic, start with
clc archives. Language is far more easier to understand than in C99
(this is my personal opinion).

 

[Ben Pfaff]

In fact me and my friends spend our weekends discussing about some
mails that appear on USENET.

You are certainly dedicated students then. No wonder there are
so many Indian Ph.D. students here at Stanford.

 

[Gwar]

Then they should find a job in which the requisite information reflects
a smaller percentage of their take home pay, or expect their manager
to buy it for them.

That's Catch-22. In order to become a programmer you need the requisite
information but you can't afford the requisite information unless you're
already making the pay a programmer gets, under the particular
socio-economic circumstances of the OP.

You really don't get this, do you?

I get it that this is a game fraught with contradictions. It's obvious
that some people are not interested in other people getting requisite
information & that they're perfectly happy with a set up that benefits
those who already have the advantage.

 

[Dan Pop]

I remember what it meant to me when I was a poor American student.

Then, multiply it by a factor of 20 to 100 to realise what it means
to a poor Indian student.

I didn't steal documents to get around the problem.

You're the only one talking about stealing here.

It is published
in book form. Perhaps it is available in a local library.

Yeah, it makes perfect sense to expect local Indian libraries to be
well stocked with printed copies of the standard...

Dan

 

[Dan Pop]

Spare me Dan, he asked for "the standard", not the closest approximation.

And, in your opinion, what is more helpful? A plain no, or a no, but...?

Don't start spewing political correctness instead.

I must be the least politically correct of this newsgroup's regulars, so
I have no intention to spew any political correctness.

Dan

 

[Prafulla H]

You are certainly dedicated students then. No wonder there are
so many Indian Ph.D. students here at Stanford.

<brag>

We are'nt students anymore, unfortunately. We all are working now.
Back in our college days, we used to get surprised by looking at the
kind of assignemtns (mostly) US UNIVs give to their students. I tried
my hand on some, successfully. They are so informative, so helpful..
Best part is, they are on public domains with access to anybody and
everybody.

</brag>

 

[Dik T. Winter]

> In article <[email protected]>, (e-mail address removed) says... ....
>
> Then they should find a job in which the requisite information reflects
> a smaller percentage of their take home pay, or expect their manager
> to buy it for them.

Some try that and find a job in the US. Average yearly income in India
is US$ 350.

 

[Dan Pop]

You pass up no opportunity, as usual, to gratuitously insult Joona.

It was well deserved, not gratuitous. Whether you agree or not.

The OP did make it plain that he was looking for a free copy while
being perfectly aware that the document is sold, not given away. In
that context, the inference I draw is that he should be entitled to
steal it because he can't afford to buy it. I can certainly understand
it if Joona drew the same conclusion.

There is also the presumption of innocence, that your reasoning is
completely ignoring. The OP may know that ANSI and ISO are selling a
printed copy and he is interested in knowing whether online copies are
not available for free. As many other standards are *legally* available
in electronic format for free, this is not *a priori* an unreasonable
assumption.

The answer happens to be no, but this doesn't make the OP a thief.

Highly off topic rant follows, read it on your own risk.

It's all too easy to judge the poor from the position of the rich.
Try to spend some time in the shoes of the poor and you'll see that all
your moral system falls apart. I'm talking from first hand experience,
BTW, and not spewing PC bullshit: I've learned C from a photocopy of a
photocopy of a ... of K&R1, so bad that it was barely readable (and I
could keep it only for 2 weeks). And during this period I couldn't
care less about IP theft and related issues: buying a copy of K&R1 was
not an option and no public library in the whole country had the book.
It was a choice between learning C and not learning C and I chose to
learn C (even if, according to Joona, I was not entitled to it).
The K&R1 publisher had nothing to win or to lose from my choice
(eventually, it had something to win, because I bought K&R2, as soon
as I had the opportunity to do it). And this was not an isolated
example, this is how people learned CS, in my country, at the time.
Today, the political constraints are gone, but the economical ones
are still in place (average monthly salary on the order of $100), so
people still learn CS this way, with a perfectly clean conscience.
Talk to them about IP theft/copyright violation/whatever and they
will laugh at you: these are abstractions they cannot afford.

So, let the Indian regulars of this group judge the poor Indian student
asking for a free copy of the C standards: they're the only ones in the
right position for doing it.

This is a useful response, so long as the OP remembers that this is
not the actual standard, but very close.

I clearly mentioned it, in my post.

Dan

 

[Alan Balmer]

Hardly any schools have libraries in true sense. Things are not all
that very rosy. If you know anybdy of Indian origin, you can discuss
this point at length in your spare time.

Only curiosity about the educational system - I don't really want to
discuss it at length. I certainly don't want to intrude on your free
time, so forget I asked.

 

[Randy Howard]

I must be the least politically correct of this newsgroup's regulars, so
I have no intention to spew any political correctness.

Let me be more specific. Stop making false accusations about others being
racially motivated in their responses simply because they said something
you disagreed with. I know you have an ongoing war with Joona, I prefer
not to be dragged in, or associated with it.

 

[Alan Balmer]

That's Catch-22. In order to become a programmer you need the requisite
information but you can't afford the requisite information unless you're
already making the pay a programmer gets, under the particular
socio-economic circumstances of the OP.



I get it that this is a game fraught with contradictions. It's obvious
that some people are not interested in other people getting requisite
information & that they're perfectly happy with a set up that benefits
those who already have the advantage.

What nonsense. Don't blame your failures on others.

There are many successful programmers who do not have a copy of the
Standard. If you are not a successful programmer, the lack of a copy
of the standard is not the reason.

 

[Randy Howard]

Then, multiply it by a factor of 20 to 100 to realise what it means
to a poor Indian student.

You obviously are tremendously concerned about this problem, so you
must have already sent him a copy of the book, right?

Yeah, it makes perfect sense to expect local Indian libraries to be
well stocked with printed copies of the standard...

It would make a lot more sense for a library to buy 1 copy of the
standard so that dozens of students could share access to it, than
to have each buy one. If they don't buy books for a library there,
then they must obtain them somehow, or they wouldn't be libraries
at all. Whatever the process is, that seems more economical than
individual ownership. Particularly, when most people do not need
a copy of the entire C standard in their backpack 24x7.