[arguably OT] Keyboards

[Tom Anderson]

Evening all,

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?

(I argue that this is on topic, because this group is about java
programming, and one does not get very far in java programming without a
keyboard.)

The trouble with reviews i read online is that they're often written from
the point of view of "ZOMG it has fifteen special function keys and a
volume dial and an LCD!!!!", which is of absolutely no value to the
working programmer. I deal with at least three different computers (local,
virtual, and remote) and dozens of apps and tools through that keyboard
every day, all of which already have their own key bindings, and most of
which have no interest in custom keys or LCDs, so those things are no use
to me, but i do spend all bloody day typing (well, on average half of the
day, given that we pair-program), so what i do care about is a keyboard
that makes typing comfortable, accurate, and fast (we have some keyboards
where the case is far too high beneath the space bar, so you can't type a
space with your thumb - how did these ever get built?), and if possible is
resistant to biscuit crumbs (today's keyboard has a crumb under the Z key,
which encourages accurate editing, because it makes it a challenge to undo
things).

What i want is a keyboard designed according to the old-school unix
philosophy - it should concentrate on being a keyboard, and nothing else.
A keyboard designed for programmers. That doesn't mean bells and whistles;
does a saw designed for professional carpenters have lots of bells and
whistles? No, it's just bloody good at sawing.

Personally, i really like Apple's desktop keyboards - nice low-travel keys
with a sturdy feel, and good build quality. However, their key layout is
weird, so if we plugged them into our linux boxes, we'd either have to use
a Mac keyboard and have the keys in weird places, or use a standard keymap
and have some keys not emit the symbol printed on them. Neither sounds
good. Also, not everyone in the office likes low-travel keyboards.

So anyway, rant and ramble (rantble?) over, recommendations welcome.

tom

 

[Stefan Ram]

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?

I am using a Genius »SlimStar 310«. I spill tomato sauce or
some similiar food over my keyboard once a month and,
therefore, had to buy several keyboards a year. The
»SlimStar 310« is somewhat waterproof and has resisted the
sauce for about 20 months now. It is mentioned here:

http://www.generation-nt.com/genius-clavier-slimstar310-actualite-18360.html

Unless waterproof, this would cost me $359 per month, but
should make an impression:

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg

(It also seems to have programmable macro keys implemented
in the keyboard - not via software on the computer, and a
foot switch.)

Mentioned here:

»He used this funky ergonomic keyboard
and when he typed it sounded like one of those ratcheting
noisemakers you spin over your head at new years.«

http://xooglers.blogspot.com/2005/12/they-say-its-darkest-before-dawn.html
(gone)

 

[Jim]

Evening all,

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?

(I argue that this is on topic, because this group is about java
programming, and one does not get very far in java programming without a
keyboard.)

The trouble with reviews i read online is that they're often written from
the point of view of "ZOMG it has fifteen special function keys and a
volume dial and an LCD!!!!", which is of absolutely no value to the
working programmer. I deal with at least three different computers (local,
virtual, and remote) and dozens of apps and tools through that keyboard
every day, all of which already have their own key bindings, and most of
which have no interest in custom keys or LCDs, so those things are no use
to me, but i do spend all bloody day typing (well, on average half of the
day, given that we pair-program), so what i do care about is a keyboard
that makes typing comfortable, accurate, and fast (we have some keyboards
where the case is far too high beneath the space bar, so you can't type a
space with your thumb - how did these ever get built?), and if possible is
resistant to biscuit crumbs (today's keyboard has a crumb under the Z key,
which encourages accurate editing, because it makes it a challenge to undo
things).

What i want is a keyboard designed according to the old-school unix
philosophy - it should concentrate on being a keyboard, and nothing else.
A keyboard designed for programmers. That doesn't mean bells and whistles;
does a saw designed for professional carpenters have lots of bells and
whistles? No, it's just bloody good at sawing.

Personally, i really like Apple's desktop keyboards - nice low-travel keys
with a sturdy feel, and good build quality. However, their key layout is
weird, so if we plugged them into our linux boxes, we'd either have to use
a Mac keyboard and have the keys in weird places, or use a standard keymap
and have some keys not emit the symbol printed on them. Neither sounds
good. Also, not everyone in the office likes low-travel keyboards.

So anyway, rant and ramble (rantble?) over, recommendations welcome.

tom

I've been using the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000 (it is wired).
Reviews aside, the keyboard is just comfortable. The only nick I'd
give it is they added an "F Lock" key that locks out the function
keys. Every once in a while I hit it and then things just don't work
well. Volume controls are nice. Anyway my $0.02US

http://www.microsoft.com/hardware/mouseandkeyboard/productdetails.aspx?pid=043

Jim

 

[Lew]

Unless waterproof, this would cost me $359 per month, but
should make an impression:

http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg

I used this keyboard on a job for over four years. It fixed my
repetitive-motion pain, but I hated the tiny function keys.

Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg>
for a couple of years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but it
was fragile as heck. The cable to the PC kinked, the keys fell off, and my
wife and friends found it frightening. But it's not as wide as most
keyboards, thus it fit beautifully on my narrow keyboard shelf, and the
ergonomics of it are everything they claim.

But the fragility made it infeasible to replace.

So now I use a Microsoft Wireless Comfort Keyboard 1.0A. I've worn the
letters off several of the keys, it's grimy from a few years of use, but the
key layout is comfortable (it has the long "Delete" key below "Home" with the
"Home"/"End"/"PageUp"/"PageDown" suite in a vertical arrangement, and the
arrows in a low inverted-T) and just won't quit.

My hands pronate some, but it's not causing injury like some cheap keyboards
would.

If Maltron made a durable, wireless USB version it'd be ideal.

The Microsoft is so much less expensive, though. I use the Microsoft wireless
mouse that came with it, and I find it perfect. In the end, Microsoft wins.

 

[Lew]

Fixing my copy-paste error.

Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
<http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-etype-intro.html>

 

[Kevin McMurtrie]

Look for scissor switch keys. They were originally created for laptops
but some makers have put them in full-sized desktop keyboards because of
their exceptional longevity and nice feel.

Typical keyboards having plastic pistons wear rapidly when keys aren't
struck straight down. They don't hold up well to software development
that makes heavy use of the meta, underscore, and symbol keys at the
edges of the keyboard.

 

[Wojtek]

Tom Anderson wrote :

Evening all,

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace them
with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell them
to me?

(I argue that this is on topic, because this group is about java programming,
and one does not get very far in java programming without a keyboard.)

The trouble with reviews i read online is that they're often written from the
point of view of "ZOMG it has fifteen special function keys and a volume dial
and an LCD!!!!", which is of absolutely no value to the working programmer. I
deal with at least three different computers (local, virtual, and remote) and
dozens of apps and tools through that keyboard every day, all of which
already have their own key bindings, and most of which have no interest in
custom keys or LCDs, so those things are no use to me, but i do spend all
bloody day typing (well, on average half of the day, given that we
pair-program), so what i do care about is a keyboard that makes typing
comfortable, accurate, and fast (we have some keyboards where the case is far
too high beneath the space bar, so you can't type a space with your thumb -
how did these ever get built?), and if possible is resistant to biscuit
crumbs (today's keyboard has a crumb under the Z key, which encourages
accurate editing, because it makes it a challenge to undo things).

What i want is a keyboard designed according to the old-school unix
philosophy - it should concentrate on being a keyboard, and nothing else. A
keyboard designed for programmers. That doesn't mean bells and whistles; does
a saw designed for professional carpenters have lots of bells and whistles?

I am using a 20 year old keyboard. It has a DIN plug with a DIN->PS/2
converter. I love this keyboard because it has function keys at the top
AND down the left side. It also does NOT have "Windows" keys. The space
bar is nice and wide for my thick thumbs.

There is a full size cursor key layout (not in the inverted T style),
and a built-in calculator with LCD screen, now broken.

The only name I can find on it is "5001"

I love this keyboard. It has a solid feel to it. I have taken it apart
a few times to clean out the contacts.

I have tried to so searches for left side function keys, but alas, I
have failed to find one.

Well there is the Optimus Maximus keyboard:
http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/ but it is just out of my
price range

It would be cool though. Switch to Debug mode in your IDE and have the
key-caps change to debug commands...

 

[RedGrittyBrick]

Evening all,

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations
for keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to
tell them to me?

1) http://bit.ly/cT701e
2) http://bit.ly/9EdqWU

 

[shane]

I used this keyboard on a job for over four years. It fixed my
repetitive-motion pain, but I hated the tiny function keys.

Ditto, It's a great keyboard, but Kinesis really messed up with the
'impossible not to fat-finger' function keys. All they'd have to do is
relocate the 'keypad' and 'program' keys, then they'd have enough room
for real function keys...

Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
<http://www.maltron.com/maltron-kbd-etype-intro.html>
for a couple of years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but
it was fragile as heck.

Ugh... I was thinking of this as a next purchase.

So now I use a Microsoft Wireless Comfort Keyboard 1.0A. ...
My hands pronate some, but it's not causing injury like some cheap
keyboards would.

Hmm... I've always been scared to migrate back to a non-split design.
Perhaps I'll give it a try.

Shane

 

[Lew]

Ugh... I was thinking of this as a next purchase.

Well, the version I bought was not from Maltron, but from
<http://www.ergo-comp.com/>

Perhaps the Maltron, at nearly $900 U.S., is more durable but I'll never find
out at that price.

The key dropoffs were less a problem than you might suppose, since they snap
right back on.

The fragile wire was an issue, but maybe the "model changeover" mentioned on
their home page will fix that. Or maybe they're going out of business. Or
maybe they're switching away from Maltron. Or maybe they're doing something
completely unpredictable.

 

[Lew]

I'll have an interesting sleep tonight...

Nightmares of the click of each key on the 20 year old one.

Beautiful dreams of the ridiculously expensive Optimus Maximus.

Ridiculously expensive, non-ergonomic, and unabashedly stupid. What need does
a touch typist have for a screen on every key?

 

[Arved Sandstrom]

I used this keyboard on a job for over four years. It fixed my
repetitive-motion pain, but I hated the tiny function keys.

Then I used a version of the Maltron keyboard
<http://www.kinesis-ergo.com/images/kb_adv-pro_met720x471.jpg>
for a couple of years at home. I loved it - I absolutely loved it - but
it was fragile as heck. The cable to the PC kinked, the keys fell off,
and my wife and friends found it frightening. But it's not as wide as
most keyboards, thus it fit beautifully on my narrow keyboard shelf, and
the ergonomics of it are everything they claim.

But the fragility made it infeasible to replace.

So now I use a Microsoft Wireless Comfort Keyboard 1.0A. I've worn the
letters off several of the keys, it's grimy from a few years of use, but
the key layout is comfortable (it has the long "Delete" key below "Home"
with the "Home"/"End"/"PageUp"/"PageDown" suite in a vertical
arrangement, and the arrows in a low inverted-T) and just won't quit.

My hands pronate some, but it's not causing injury like some cheap
keyboards would.

If Maltron made a durable, wireless USB version it'd be ideal.

The Microsoft is so much less expensive, though. I use the Microsoft
wireless mouse that came with it, and I find it perfect. In the end,
Microsoft wins.

This whole discussion comes at a good time, since I want to buy two
keyboards and one wireless mouse. One complete set is for the new
Windows 7 Dell that I acquired in December, and it's basically because
my better half saw my Mac wireless keyboard and my Magic Mouse and she
insists on going wireless. The other keyboard is for my tried and
true old Dell with Windows XP Pro - the keyboard is simply due to be
retired (rather annoyingly the Shift is having major issues).

I've never much liked the stock Dell keyboards, but they haven't been so
bad that I'd go out and buy a new one while the other still worked. But
now I need to bite the bullet. I like the recommendation above for the
Wireless Comfort KB and I think I'll get one so my gf can test-drive
it...then I'll borrow it for a bit. I don't need but a few hours to
figure out whether I like a KB or not.

What's somewhat ironic is that the Mac wireless keyboard I have is more
ergonomic by far - short-travel Chiclet keys and all - than any other
keyboard I use right now, home or work. Mainly because the profile is so
low. For the same reason the keyboard on my MacBook Pro is very
comfortable: short-travel keys and a natural area for both palms to rest
on. These observations are of course applicable to me only. But any PC
keyboard that offered similar features - non-flimsy feel, short-travel
keys, and suitable palm rests - would do the trick for me.

I won't be surprised if I end up with two MS Wireless Comfort keyboards
then. Since a wireless mouse is also involved I imagine I'll look at the
Optical Desktop Pro combo, or the Wireless Laser 6000 combo (I think
Peter mentioned something like this latter).

On the subject of mice, I could actually not care less about the
wireless aspect, although there are some minor conveniences involved
with that. What does have me badly spoiled is the Magic Mouse...I'll
never be happy with track balls or scroll wheels again.

AHS

 

[Roedy Green]

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?

see http://mindprod.com/bgloss/keyboard.html

I have written extensively on the subject.

 

[Roedy Green]

Ditto, It's a great keyboard, but Kinesis really messed up with the
'impossible not to fat-finger' function keys. All they'd have to do is
relocate the 'keypad' and 'program' keys, then they'd have enough room
for real function keys...

I wrote them recently about the keys. They have not changed them.

Apparently the older keyboards, such as mine, are on a lifetime
warranty.

 

[Roedy Green]

In my office, we have several rubbish keyboards. We are going to replace
them with less rubbish keyboards. Does anyone have any recommendations for
keyboards they really, really like, and if so, would they care to tell
them to me?

Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
never use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right
hand rests.

 

[Lew]

Consider gettinga keyboard WITHOUT a numeric keypad. You probably
never use it. Without it, your mouse is closer to where your right
hand rests.

Now there's an assumption.

One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder, especially
for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left side. Removing the
numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will have no effect on where the
right hand rests whatsoever if people do that smart thing.

 

[Lew]

Now there's an assumption.

One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
side. Removing the numeric keypad from the right of the keyboard will
have no effect on where the right hand rests whatsoever if people do
that smart thing.

And while we're on the subject, on what statistical or evidentiary basis do
you conclude that someone "probably" doesn't use the numeric keypad?

I'm betting none whatsoever.

Many people, of whom I am one, use the numeric keypad quite extensively. It
is so much easier, and so less prone to induce pain, to use that then the row
of number keys above the alphabetic ones.

I do agree that if one is not one of those people then a keyboard without such
a keypad might be useful. That brings up the question of what, if any,
keyboards are available without that keypad. And what else they sacrificed,
e.g., other ergonomic factors, when they dropped it.

I recommend that one consider learning to use the numeric keypad than to
abandon it.

 

[Martin Gregorie]

One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
side.

Training yourself NOT to use the scroll wheel helps a lot too.

I got bad RSI from heavy use of the scroll wheel and now I'm weaning
myself off, the condition has almost vanished.

Using the mouse purely for shove'n click and doing all scrolling with the
other hand on arrow and PgUp/Dn keys drastically evens up the load
between my hands, but I admit that this probably works best for us left-
handers.

I wish it was still possible to find a 3-button mouse with no scroll-
wheel capability. Preferably optical, but I know that is asking for the
moon. OTOH, if I open up the mouse and carefully apply epoxy or Zap to
the mouse wheel's axle....

 

[Zlatko Duric]

One of the standard tricks to prevent repetitive-motion disorder,
especially for right-handed people, is to move the mouse to the left
side.

Can you elaborate a bit that one? Why is that, what's the trick?

 

[Lew]

Can you elaborate a bit that one? Why is that, what's the trick?

Why: because keyboards already have too much for the right hand to do.
Putting the mouse on the left balances the load better.

What's the trick: I don't understand the question.