Best way to do server side tasks with new ISP

Discussion in 'Perl Misc' started by Paul E. Schoen, Jun 29, 2009.

  1. This is my first post here and I have never used Perl, so please bear with
    me. I am mostly a hardware guy but I have done a lot of programming since
    the punchcard days of the IBM 7094 in 1967, and MSDOS and Windows apps
    using BASIC, Pascal, C, and assembly, and embedded Z80 and PIC projects
    using assembly and C. More recently I have done some scripting in
    JavaScript and VB, and I have done some simple HTML for my website.

    I have been with the same dialup ISP, smart.net, since 1996, and I have
    been happy enough with the default performance and tools I have used,
    particularly a hit counter and the ability to view a directory that does
    not have an index.htm. But now I have switched to Verizon FIOS, and their
    10M of web space has a broken web counter tool, and viewing of the files in
    a directory is forbidden. Also it seems that they do not allow a CGI-BIN
    for their residential service.

    So I am looking elsewhere for a website host. I could stay with Smart.net
    but their web space seems rather expensive. The domain registrar I use,
    MyDomain.com, has 10G webspace for about $6/month, and they say they have a
    full line of tools like a hit counter and they allow CGI-BIN, but they have
    permanantly disabled directory listing of files.

    It seems that JavaScript does not provide access to server-side file
    directories, and on one forum it was advised to look at
    http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.opendir.php. It looks like PHP is
    composed of elements of C, Java, and Perl. So I decided to look at Perl,
    and I have scanned much of the FAQ. It is rather overwhelming to analyze
    and compare the features of so many similar languages and attempt to become
    proficient in one or more, especially when I only need to accomplish a few
    rather simple things that have probably been done many times before.

    I plan to use Borland Delphi for all my local applications, and perhaps use
    JScript or VBScript with the WSH for simple local tasks. I also need to use
    JavaScript for programming PDF documents using Nitro Pro or Adobe Pro. And
    of course some applications such as Access require VBA. And I have also
    written some more complex apps in Delphi that use the automation interface
    to utilize methods, properties, and events of objects in other programs.

    Thus I am just trying to determine if I should attempt to use Perl, or
    perhaps PHP or some other language, to do what I want to do. Mostly, I
    would like to make a simple index.htm that can display a list of files in
    its directory so that users can simply click on any one for download.
    Mostly these will be JPG or TXT, but possibly also XLS, DOC, ZIP, or other
    common types.

    And I would also like to be able to implement a simple form that would have
    its results emailed to me, which of course is a common task, but I assume I
    would need a CGI application to do that.

    Thanks for any advice you may be able to provide.

    Paul E. Schoen
    www.pstech-inc.com
    Paul E. Schoen, Jun 29, 2009
    #1
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  2. On 2009-06-29 01:05, Paul E. Schoen <> wrote:
    > This is my first post here and I have never used Perl, so please bear with
    > me. I am mostly a hardware guy but I have done a lot of programming since
    > the punchcard days of the IBM 7094 in 1967, and MSDOS and Windows apps
    > using BASIC, Pascal, C, and assembly, and embedded Z80 and PIC projects
    > using assembly and C. More recently I have done some scripting in
    > JavaScript and VB, and I have done some simple HTML for my website.
    >
    > I have been with the same dialup ISP, smart.net, since 1996, and I have
    > been happy enough with the default performance and tools I have used,
    > particularly a hit counter and the ability to view a directory that does
    > not have an index.htm.

    [...]
    > but their web space seems rather expensive. The domain registrar I use,
    > MyDomain.com, has 10G webspace for about $6/month, and they say they have a
    > full line of tools like a hit counter and they allow CGI-BIN, but they have
    > permanantly disabled directory listing of files.
    >
    > It seems that JavaScript does not provide access to server-side file
    > directories,


    This is correct for JavaScript running in the browser (some web servers
    offer server side JavaScript - this has of course access to server-side
    resources, but not to browser resources).

    > and on one forum it was advised to look at
    > http://us.php.net/manual/en/function.opendir.php. It looks like PHP is
    > composed of elements of C, Java, and Perl.


    And Perl is composed of elements of C, awk, and sh (with a little bit of
    OOP and functional programming thrown into the mix).

    > So I decided to look at Perl,
    > and I have scanned much of the FAQ. It is rather overwhelming to analyze
    > and compare the features of so many similar languages and attempt to become
    > proficient in one or more, especially when I only need to accomplish a few
    > rather simple things that have probably been done many times before.

    [...]
    > Thus I am just trying to determine if I should attempt to use Perl, or
    > perhaps PHP or some other language, to do what I want to do.


    You could try to solve your problem in Perl, PHP, and a few other
    languages and see which one you like best.

    Here is a Perl solution which assumes that you can put Perl CGI programs
    directly into "normal" directories and aren't constrained to using
    cgi-bin:

    #!/usr/bin/perl
    use warnings;
    use strict;
    use CGI;

    my $cgi = CGI->new();
    print "Content-Type: text/html; charset='UTF-8'\n";
    print "\n";
    print "<title>Directory listing of ",
    $cgi->escapeHTML($cgi->self_url),
    "</title>\n";
    print "<ul>\n";
    opendir(my $dh, ".");
    for (readdir($dh)) {
    print "<li><a href='", $cgi->escapeHTML($_), "'>",
    $cgi->escapeHTML($_),
    "</a></li>\n";
    }
    print "</ul>\n";
    __END__

    Making the output more beautiful, adding metadata (size, modified date,
    etc.) and other embellishments are left as an exercise to the reader
    ;-).

    hp
    Peter J. Holzer, Jun 29, 2009
    #2
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  3. "Peter J. Holzer" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    [snip]
    >
    > Making the output more beautiful, adding metadata (size, modified date,
    > etc.) and other embellishments are left as an exercise to the reader
    > ;-).


    Thanks for the response. That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    JavaScript. But at least it's a start, and perhaps I can get used to the
    syntax and make sense of it.

    Paul
    Paul E. Schoen, Jun 30, 2009
    #3
  4. "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    >That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    >JavaScript.


    Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.

    jue
    Jürgen Exner, Jun 30, 2009
    #4
  5. "Jürgen Exner" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    >>That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    >>JavaScript.

    >
    > Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    > the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.


    Well, I am used to C and Pascal (Delphi), and a little bit of Visual Basic.
    I can do just about anything I need on my local machine with those
    languages. Then I tried some JavaScript and VBScript using the WSH for some
    simple file manipulation scripts, and found some limitations. I also used
    some JavaScript in a PDF, and ran into a few more limitations.

    But I am coming to understand the issues of security when one includes code
    (script) in an HTML document that is downloaded on someone else's machine.
    And another level of security when dealing with server-side CGI where even
    reading a directory or doing some simple file I/O can be dangerous.

    It's already a big leap from embedded assembly and C routines where all of
    the hardware and software are visible and under control of the designer, to
    applications that run in the context of an OS on a local machine, and then
    finally to an instruction set that works in the context of a web page in
    someone's browser, or a CGI program that accesses files and resources on a
    server.

    But mostly I can't understand why well-known languages such as C and
    Pascal, or even VB and .NET, are not used for CGI apps (although maybe they
    are), and instead require rather arcane-seeming code such as Perl and PHP.
    I will need to look into the language a bit more before I can really make a
    judgment as to its suitability for my purposes. For now, though, it just
    seems confusing.

    Paul
    Paul E. Schoen, Jun 30, 2009
    #5
  6. Paul E. Schoen

    Uri Guttman Guest

    >>>>> "PES" == Paul E Schoen <> writes:

    PES> But mostly I can't understand why well-known languages such as C
    PES> and Pascal, or even VB and .NET, are not used for CGI apps
    PES> (although maybe they are), and instead require rather
    PES> arcane-seeming code such as Perl and PHP. I will need to look
    PES> into the language a bit more before I can really make a judgment
    PES> as to its suitability for my purposes. For now, though, it just
    PES> seems confusing.

    then you have never tried to do major text munging in c with all of its
    problems of memory management, poor string handling, etc. this is true
    for most compiled languages. perl was the best dynamic language when cgi
    came forth and became the defacto language of the web in those days. its
    ease of handling strings and memory made it popular with cgi and many
    other application areas. and thinking today that perl is still mostly
    used in cgi is way off base as it is used in many more areas and with
    major amounts of code (see cpan).

    and calling pascal well known today is just being silly. cobol is more
    well known and is still being coded.

    uri

    --
    Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
    ----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
    --------- Free Perl Training --- http://perlhunter.com/college.html ---------
    --------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
    Uri Guttman, Jun 30, 2009
    #6
  7. In article <DYh2m.2067$>,
    "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:

    > "Jürgen Exner" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    > >>That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    > >>JavaScript.

    > >
    > > Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    > > the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.

    >
    > Well, I am used to C and Pascal (Delphi), and a little bit of Visual Basic.
    > I can do just about anything I need on my local machine with those
    > languages. Then I tried some JavaScript and VBScript using the WSH for some
    > simple file manipulation scripts, and found some limitations. I also used
    > some JavaScript in a PDF, and ran into a few more limitations.
    >
    > But I am coming to understand the issues of security when one includes code
    > (script) in an HTML document that is downloaded on someone else's machine.
    > And another level of security when dealing with server-side CGI where even
    > reading a directory or doing some simple file I/O can be dangerous.
    >
    > It's already a big leap from embedded assembly and C routines where all of
    > the hardware and software are visible and under control of the designer, to
    > applications that run in the context of an OS on a local machine, and then
    > finally to an instruction set that works in the context of a web page in
    > someone's browser, or a CGI program that accesses files and resources on a
    > server.
    >
    > But mostly I can't understand why well-known languages such as C and
    > Pascal, or even VB and .NET, are not used for CGI apps (although maybe they
    > are), and instead require rather arcane-seeming code such as Perl and PHP.
    > I will need to look into the language a bit more before I can really make a
    > judgment as to its suitability for my purposes. For now, though, it just
    > seems confusing.
    >
    > Paul


    C and Pascal can be used as CGI applications. But Perl and PHP
    applications can be run within the context of the web server, thereby
    scaling a whole lot better (e.g. each connection is still running inside
    the web server's process space rather than as a separate CGI process).
    Add access to MySQL and you have a full-service application platform.

    Just as C and Pascal had their day, there are other web-technologies
    attempting to replace Perl and PHP. Most web hosting companies offer
    Perl, PHP, and MySQL. Good luck finding Cold Fusion. Or open your
    wallet _yearly_ for Microsoft-based development environments. In this
    area, the standard development cycle of edit, compile/build, test is
    shortened by removing the compile/build phase.

    I guess it's time you decide if you want to do web development or
    continue doing your C and Pascal programs on DOS. I've been programming
    for 30+ years. I learned new languages when I needed to. Fortran,
    PDP-11, DEC-10, or VAX assembly couldn't do it all as it turns out.

    Just remember that the penalty for complaining is that you'll live
    longer (and continue using Pascal). At this rate, you'll outlive a lot
    of us. And you'll still be complaining about C and Pascal.

    --
    DeeDee, don't press that button! DeeDee! NO! Dee...
    [I filter all Goggle Groups posts, so any reply may be automatically by ignored]
    Michael Vilain, Jun 30, 2009
    #7
  8. Michael Vilain wrote:
    > C and Pascal can be used as CGI applications. But Perl and PHP
    > applications can be run within the context of the web server, thereby
    > scaling a whole lot better (e.g. each connection is still running inside
    > the web server's process space rather than as a separate CGI process).
    > Add access to MySQL and you have a full-service application platform.
    >
    > ...


    Maybe it's time to slow down a bit. The OP wants to be able to list one
    or more directories and a hit counter and a form-to-mail app.

    Directory listing is a web server thing in the first place. Assuming
    Apache, an .htaccess file with this content:

    Options +Indexes

    might do. If not, it ought to be possible to ask the web hosting
    provider to allow directory listing for a specific account, or for one
    or more specified directories.

    As regards hit counters and form-to-mail scripts, there are numerous of
    them out there that may or may not fit the OP's needs. In any case, I
    can't see anything wrong with using C for those apps instead of learning
    a new language. (The latter presupposes that the hosting provider allows
    compiling C programs.)

    Scalability, mod_perl and stuff seems not to be a major concern.

    --
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson
    Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson, Jun 30, 2009
    #8
  9. >>>>> "MV" == Michael Vilain <> writes:

    MV> C and Pascal can be used as CGI applications. But Perl and PHP
    MV> applications can be run within the context of the web server,
    MV> thereby scaling a whole lot better (e.g. each connection is
    MV> still running inside the web server's process space rather than
    MV> as a separate CGI process). Add access to MySQL and you have a
    MV> full-service application platform.

    Er, C can be used within the context of the web server as well, and the
    last time I looked, there were C libraries for MySQL.

    Charlton



    --
    Charlton Wilbur
    Charlton Wilbur, Jun 30, 2009
    #9
  10. On 2009-06-30 03:43, Jürgen Exner <> wrote:
    > "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    >>That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    >>JavaScript.


    How is that code "intimidating"? It's just a bunch of print statements
    and a simple loop.

    Assuming you had access to a directory, how would that code be simpler
    in JavaScript?


    > Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    > the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.


    JavaScript is a fully-featured general purpose programming language. In
    fact, if you look at the standard, you won't find HTML mentioned at all,
    except maybe in the preface. The DOM tree is just a data structure
    provided by the environment, not something built into the language.

    hp
    Peter J. Holzer, Jun 30, 2009
    #10
  11. On 2009-06-30 06:07, Paul E. Schoen <> wrote:
    > "Jürgen Exner" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    >>>That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    >>>JavaScript.

    >>
    >> Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    >> the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.

    >
    > Well, I am used to C and Pascal (Delphi), and a little bit of Visual Basic.
    > I can do just about anything I need on my local machine with those
    > languages.

    [...]
    > But mostly I can't understand why well-known languages such as C and
    > Pascal, or even VB and .NET, are not used for CGI apps (although maybe
    > they are),


    They are. I wrote some web applications in C myself. But that was for an
    embedded system where the whole system (kernel, web server, application,
    and the data it processed) had to fit into a few MB of flash. It would
    have been quite a lot faster to develop the thing in Perl, but there
    simply wasn't space for a perl interpreter on the system (and using a
    bigger flash would have cost a lot more than my few hundred hours of
    work).

    > and instead require rather arcane-seeming code such as Perl
    > and PHP.


    Mass hosters can only offer a few technologies, and they will offer what
    their customers demand. Theses days this is usually PHP, plus a little
    bit of Perl, Python and Ruby, at least on Linux hosts. On Windows hosts,
    they may also offer VB and .NET, but I'm not a Windows guy so I wouldn't
    know that.

    If you want to write your web apps in C, it's probably best if you get a
    virtual host (I've seen some offers for less than 10¤/month). Of course
    then you wouldn't need to write a CGI app just to print a directory
    listing because you can just configure your web server.

    hp
    Peter J. Holzer, Jun 30, 2009
    #11
  12. On 2009-06-30 09:23, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <> wrote:
    > Directory listing is a web server thing in the first place. Assuming
    > Apache, an .htaccess file with this content:
    >
    > Options +Indexes
    >
    > might do. If not, it ought to be possible to ask the web hosting
    > provider to allow directory listing for a specific account, or for one
    > or more specified directories.


    The OP already wrote that he asked them and that it is *not* possible to
    turn on directory listings and that they won't make an exception for
    him.

    hp
    Peter J. Holzer, Jun 30, 2009
    #12
  13. "Peter J. Holzer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 2009-06-30 03:43, Jürgen Exner <> wrote:
    >> "Paul E. Schoen" <> wrote:
    >>>That code looks rather intimidating, compared to
    >>>JavaScript.

    >
    > How is that code "intimidating"? It's just a bunch of print statements
    > and a simple loop.


    Well, it's probably just about learning the syntax:

    my $cgi = CGI->new(); // I don't understand what this does, except
    possibly assign string $cgi to something

    opendir(my $dh, "."); // I assume $dh is a string containing the
    directory in text form

    for (readdir($dh)) { // So this apparently reads the string one line
    at a time

    print "<li><a href='", $cgi->escapeHTML($_), "'>",
    $cgi->escapeHTML($_),
    "</a></li>\n"; // I know this must create HTML code for
    hyperlinks to the directory items

    The single and double quotes and various other characters and symbols
    probably make perfect sense to a Perl programmer, but they seem difficult
    to read and understand.


    >
    > Assuming you had access to a directory, how would that code be simpler
    > in JavaScript?


    I'm not very fluent in JavaScript, but if I had access to an MSDOS command
    shell I would just execute a

    dir > dirfile.txt

    and then I would just parse the filenames and add appropriate HTML to
    prepend the URL of the directory to make them hyperlinks.


    >> Well, what do you expect? The one is a simple DHTLM scripting language,
    >> the other is a fully-featured general purpose programming langauge.

    >
    > JavaScript is a fully-featured general purpose programming language. In
    > fact, if you look at the standard, you won't find HTML mentioned at all,
    > except maybe in the preface. The DOM tree is just a data structure
    > provided by the environment, not something built into the language.


    I found JavaScript very limited when used in the context of the Windows
    Script Host, as it is designed to run in the context of a browser and an
    HTML document. It does have some file manipulation capability if you use an
    ActiveX FileSystemObject, where you can create directories and text files
    which can be written and read, and files can be copied from one place to
    another. But a local machine is a much different environment than a web
    server!

    Thanks for your patience in helping me understand more about various
    languages and their appropriateness to different environments. I don't
    think I want to learn Perl for the limited use I will probably have for it.
    I can see where it is a very powerful tool for text manipulation and
    negotiating the environment of the web server and user interaction with an
    HTML document, and gathering information. But it seems to be difficult to
    follow because of its shorthand notation for complex tasks.

    Paul
    Paul E. Schoen, Jun 30, 2009
    #13
  14. Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    > On 2009-06-30 09:23, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <> wrote:
    >> Directory listing is a web server thing in the first place. Assuming
    >> Apache, an .htaccess file with this content:
    >>
    >> Options +Indexes
    >>
    >> might do. If not, it ought to be possible to ask the web hosting
    >> provider to allow directory listing for a specific account, or for one
    >> or more specified directories.

    >
    > The OP already wrote that he asked them and that it is *not* possible to
    > turn on directory listings and that they won't make an exception for
    > him.


    Even if that may be the case, it's not what he wrote. He said with
    respect to his current provider that "viewing of the files in a
    directory is forbidden", and that's what Apache tells you if directory
    listing is not enabled.

    --
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson
    Email: http://www.gunnar.cc/cgi-bin/contact.pl
    Gunnar Hjalmarsson, Jun 30, 2009
    #14
  15. On 2009-06-30 22:13, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <> wrote:
    > Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    >> The OP already wrote that he asked them and that it is *not* possible to
    >> turn on directory listings and that they won't make an exception for
    >> him.

    >
    > Even if that may be the case, it's not what he wrote. He said with
    > respect to his current provider that "viewing of the files in a
    > directory is forbidden", and that's what Apache tells you if directory
    > listing is not enabled.



    To quote from the first posting in this thread:

    | they say they have a full line of tools like a hit counter and they
    | allow CGI-BIN, but they have permanantly disabled directory listing of
    | files.

    hp
    Peter J. Holzer, Jul 1, 2009
    #15
  16. "Peter J. Holzer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 2009-06-30 22:13, Gunnar Hjalmarsson <> wrote:
    >> Peter J. Holzer wrote:
    >>> The OP already wrote that he asked them and that it is *not* possible
    >>> to
    >>> turn on directory listings and that they won't make an exception for
    >>> him.

    >>
    >> Even if that may be the case, it's not what he wrote. He said with
    >> respect to his current provider that "viewing of the files in a
    >> directory is forbidden", and that's what Apache tells you if directory
    >> listing is not enabled.

    >
    >
    > To quote from the first posting in this thread:
    >
    > | they say they have a full line of tools like a hit counter and they
    > | allow CGI-BIN, but they have permanantly disabled directory listing of
    > | files.


    Actually my current dialup ISP allows CGI and shows a directory when there
    is no index. But my new high speed ISP, verizon.net, apparently does not
    allow either, and their hit counter is broken. I get 10 M free, but I would
    like a little more. So I am really just shopping for webspace, and perhaps
    there are providers that will give me what I want for a reasonable amount,
    like $5/mo for 100 M or so.

    Thanks for the interesting discussion.

    Paul
    Paul E. Schoen, Jul 1, 2009
    #16
  17. Paul E. Schoen

    Uri Guttman Guest

    >>>>> "PES" == Paul E Schoen <> writes:

    PES> Actually my current dialup ISP allows CGI and shows a directory
    PES> when there is no index. But my new high speed ISP, verizon.net,
    PES> apparently does not allow either, and their hit counter is
    PES> broken. I get 10 M free, but I would like a little more. So I am
    PES> really just shopping for webspace, and perhaps there are
    PES> providers that will give me what I want for a reasonable amount,
    PES> like $5/mo for 100 M or so.

    jeez, do you know how many web hosters there are out there? and that you
    can get decent deals for $5 or more a month? using your isp for a web
    host is usually a poor idea and even worse using them for the email
    domain. since you seem to have your own domain why don't you move it to
    a hoster that has what you want. most have large checklists of features
    for each plan they offer so it would be easy to find one that matches
    your needs.

    uri

    --
    Uri Guttman ------ -------- http://www.sysarch.com --
    ----- Perl Code Review , Architecture, Development, Training, Support ------
    --------- Free Perl Training --- http://perlhunter.com/college.html ---------
    --------- Gourmet Hot Cocoa Mix ---- http://bestfriendscocoa.com ---------
    Uri Guttman, Jul 1, 2009
    #17
  18. Ben Morrow <> writes:

    > Quoth "Paul E. Schoen" <>:
    >
    > (Notice how Perl makes the rather common operation of 'iterate over all
    > the entries in a list' much easier than JS does. JS 1.6 has
    >
    > entries.forEach(function { print(...) });
    >
    > but that isn't exactly pretty.)
    >


    Erm.

    JavaScript 1.5 *does* have the equivalent construct:

    'for (var in list)'.

    Mart

    --
    "We will need a longer wall when the revolution comes."
    --- AJS, quoting an uncertain source.
    Mart van de Wege, Jul 1, 2009
    #18
  19. PES> "Peter J. Holzer" <> wrote in message
    PES> news:...

    >> How is that code "intimidating"? It's just a bunch of print
    >> statements and a simple loop.


    PES> Well, it's probably just about learning the syntax:

    It *is* just about learning the syntax. Well, and the semantics.

    Perl is not Javascript, C, VB, or Pascal. You need to get your head
    around that concept first. You can use what you know of other languages
    to help you get a handle on Perl, but the sooner you accept Perl for
    what it is, and stop trying to understand it as if it were some other
    language with lots of errors, the sooner you'll start making progress.

    PES> The single and double quotes and various other characters and
    PES> symbols probably make perfect sense to a Perl programmer, but
    PES> they seem difficult to read and understand.

    Fortunately, there are plenty of resources to help you learn to read and
    understand them.

    All languages have learning curves. Why did you accept C and Pascal's,
    but balk at Perl's?

    Charlton




    --
    Charlton Wilbur
    Charlton Wilbur, Jul 1, 2009
    #19
  20. Charlton Wilbur <> wrote:
    > PES> The single and double quotes and various other characters and
    > PES> symbols probably make perfect sense to a Perl programmer, but
    > PES> they seem difficult to read and understand.
    >
    >All languages have learning curves. Why did you accept C and Pascal's,
    >but balk at Perl's?


    Well, VB, Pascal, C, they are all the same anyway.

    Try Lisp, Prolog, and APL. After you got familiar with those Perl will
    feel like a vacation on a tropical island with a light breeze and a pina
    colada in your hands.

    jue
    Jürgen Exner, Jul 1, 2009
    #20
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