Books just don't cut it

M

Mitja

Ste said:
Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the basics
by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm having
no luck.

Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

The problem is, you should learn the whole of haystack to accomplish all the
things you described above. And it will take time. _Lots_ of it, especially
if "scripts" doesn't even sound familiar.

You could search google for pre-made scripts, but I strongly advise you to
take a step at the time and throw yourself into static (i.e.
"non-generated") HTML+CSS, and after a few months, when you're at least
familiar with _that_ up to a point, start studying scripting languages. From
what you described, I'd recommend Python.
 
D

David Dorward

Ste said:
Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML

HTML is a data format. It is used for structuring information. You can't
program in it.
and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just
doing it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file.

Text editor: good.
Notepad: bad

Try something with syntax highlighting. JEdit <http://www.jedit.org> is a
good choice, its free and available on multiple platforms. It also does tag
completion for you.
The problem is that the
books just don't explain enough.

http://w3.org/TR/html4/ is the specification, its quite detailed.
My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an
information file that will then automatically change information on a
webpage, but I haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest
something about scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

You have present a form to the user using HTML, you need something else to
accept that data and do something with it.
Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the
basics by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm
having no luck.

Script - perhaps. You need a server side program of some description, it
will probably be a script, but you can use compiled binaries as well.
Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/forms/ is a good place to get started.
 
A

Augustus

Ste said:
Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

There isn't any one book that explains it all, simply because what you've
brought up in your posting actually covers quite abit of ground

What you are going over now is HTML... and how to build "static" websites.
These are sites that don't change and just present the information in the
form of web pages.

HTML encompasses the basic presentation of a website... how it is going to
be layed out and displayed to the user

Some examples of HTML markup would be: <p><br><table border=1 cellpadding=1
cellspacing=5>

From there the next best step is CSS (Cascading Style Sheets) this will give
you more control over your HTML so you can define the layout and display of
your web page with more control.

In its most basic form, an example of CSS would be something like:
<div style='font-family:arial;font-size:100px;'>BIG TEXT</div>

Once you have a good working knowledge of HTML and CSS the next step would
then be to look into "Server Side Scripting". It is difficult to explain
Server Side Scripting in one or two lines since it can encompass so much,
but in a nutshell: Server Side Scripting is a webpage written in a
programming language that is executed on a webserver and then results (if
there are any) are presented to the user. This can be as simple as loading
a file within another, printing the time on the page, reading information
from a database, returning search results, etc.

There are quite a few different choices as far as Server Side Scripting
languages go, an example in ASP (Active Server Pages) would be:

<%
for x = 1 to 10
response.write "<br>Item Number " & x
next
%>

Then once you have the hang of Server Side Scripting (with whichever
language(s) you choose to learn) the next step would be to delve into SQL.
SQL is a database language that differs from database to database but for
the most part has the same core structure and commands. SQL commands are
combined with Server Side Scripting to read/edit/update/delete database
data.

An example of SQL would look like:
(SELECT i.name FROM inventory i LEFT JOIN (SELECT show, itemID, storeID FROM
prices WHERE storeID=1) p ON i.itemID=p.itemID WHERE (i.itemType=1) AND
(i.canusa='usa') AND ((p.show IS NULL) OR (p.show='y'))) UNION (SELECT name
FROM mopsop WHERE storeID=1 AND itemType=1) ORDER BY name


In your example of being able to update and change a page with a form would
use all of the above:
- You would use HTML and CSS to design the page with the form you are
entering the data on
- You would use Server Side Scripting and SQL to process the form data and
write it to a database
- You would use HTML, CSS, Server Side Scripting and SQL to build the page
the user sees: you would use the scripting and SQL to pull the information
from the database and then the HTML and CSS to render it into the web page
the user sees.

This was probably a long and overly complex reply to your question, but
hopefully it provides some insight into what you need to do next to advance
to the next level.

Clint
 
D

David Dorward

Augustus said:
HTML encompasses the basic presentation of a website... how it is going to
be layed out and displayed to the user

Obsolete parts of HTML encompass the basic presentation of a website. The
rest (i.e. the stuff still in modern HTML) defines the structure of a page.
Some examples of HTML markup would be: <p><br><table border=1
cellpadding=1 cellspacing=5>

Very bad markup.

A paragraph containing nothing except a line break, followed by a table
(because a table can not exist inside a paragraph, the paragraph is
implicitly ended)
In its most basic form, an example of CSS would be something like:
<div style='font-family:arial;font-size:100px;'>BIG TEXT</div>

Except that one should never define font sizes using pixels.
There are quite a few different choices as far as Server Side Scripting
languages go, an example in ASP (Active Server Pages) would be:

<%
for x = 1 to 10
response.write "<br>Item Number " & x
next
%>

Which is ASP containing VBScript, since ASP is not a server side scripting
language but a means to embed a number of different languages inside a
webpage (the embedded code is executed on the server).
An example of SQL would look like:
(SELECT i.name FROM inventory i LEFT JOIN (SELECT show, itemID, storeID
FROM prices WHERE storeID=1) p ON i.itemID=p.itemID WHERE (i.itemType=1)
AND (i.canusa='usa') AND ((p.show IS NULL) OR (p.show='y'))) UNION (SELECT
name FROM mopsop WHERE storeID=1 AND itemType=1) ORDER BY name

A rather scary example.

SELECT * from members WHERE username="johnsmith"

is a better place to start :)
 
S

SpaceGirl

Ste said:
Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the basics
by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm having
no luck.

Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

Ste


There's no quick way of doing this Ste... before you can even start looking
at scripts, you need to be pretty fluent with HTML/CSS or you'll become
rapidly unstuck. Do you have any programming experience? Scripts and small
"lumps" of code that run like programms within your HTML pages. For example,
a script could validate the information typed in a form is correct (usually
javascript), or change the way a page is formatted on the screen (generally
ASP or PHP scripting languages). Without trying to scare you, web
development is a mix of many languages. A combination of 3 are essential -
Firstly, you must know HTML/CSS. Secondly, you should really have at least
working knowledge with JavaScript, as it is the most common script language
used in browsers to acheive visual effects and form validation etc. Lastly,
you need at least one "server side language". This is a script that runs on
the server and changed the HTML before it is sent out to a users browser.
For example, the script may add values from inside a database to the page.
 
S

SpaceGirl

Which is ASP containing VBScript, since ASP is not a server side scripting
language but a means to embed a number of different languages inside a
webpage (the embedded code is executed on the server).

Well sort of. Usually when refering to ASP, people mean ASP (VBScript). It
could contain JScript... I've never seen any other languages used though.
ASP.NET is something else again; it could be one of many languages.
 
B

brucie

in post: <
Ste said:
Is ther anybody who can help me?

i'll do anything if theres any chance of sex
I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing it by in notepad and saving
as a HTML file.

icky poo. notepad doesn't even have syntax highlighting. heres some free
editors that do:

jedit: http://www.jedit.org/
nedit: http://www.nedit.org/
netpadd: http://www.netpadd.com/
araneae: http://www.araneae.com/
1st page: http://www.evrsoft.com/
crimson: http://crimsoneditor.com/
ezpad: http://www.mmedia.is/ezpad/
acehtml: http://freeware.acehtml.com/
notetab light: http://www.notetab.com/
tswebeditor: http://tswebeditor.net.tc/
html-kit: http://www.chami.com/html-kit/
pspad: http://www.pspad.com/index_en.html
websmill: http://www.xtreeme.com/websmill/
metapad: http://www.liquidninja.com/metapad/
quanta (linux): http://quanta.sourceforge.net/
dirt&stick: http://bruciesusenetshit.info/editor/
notespad: http://www.newbie.net/NotesPad/index.html
grey matter pro: http://www.pagetutor.com/misc/grey.html
editpad lite: http://www.editpadlite.com/editpadlite.html
stones webwrite: http://www.webwriter.dk/english/index.htm
matizha sublime: http://www.matizha.com/en/products/sublime/
The problem is that the books just don't explain enough.

html tutorial/references:
http://www.w3.org/
http://www.userdox.com/
http://webtips.dan.info/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/
http://www.htmlcook.com/
http://www.w3schools.com/
http://www.webmonkey.com/
http://www.pagetutor.com/
http://www.htmlprimer.com/
http://www.html-color-codes.com/
http://www.echoecho.com/html.htm
http://www.chami.com/tips/internet/
http://www.vortex-webdesign.com/help
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/www.html
http://www.davesite.com/webstation/html/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/faq/html/all.html
http://www.pageresource.com/html/index.html
http://www.htmlhelp.org/design/standards.html
http://www.htmlcenter.com/tutorials/index.cfm
http://www.webpageworkshop.co.uk/main/html_index
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/index.html

HTML 4.01 Specification:
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/
how to read the w3c specs
http://www.alistapart.com/stories/readspec/
How to read the HTML DTD
http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/intro/sgmltut.html#h-3.3
Standards for HTML Authoring for the World Wide Web (old)
http://www.htmlhelp.org/design/standards.html

HTML Validators:
http://validator.w3.org/
http://valet.webthing.com/page/
http://htmlhelp.com/tools/validator/

"HTML validation" is a good tool, but just a tool
http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/html/validation.html

downloadable tutorial/reference
http://www.ncdesign.org/
http://www.trainingtools.com/
http://www.htmlhelp.org/distribution/
http://www.werbach.com/barebones/download.html

bobby "accessibility" validator http://bobby.watchfire.com/
A-Prompt (Accessibility Prompt) http://aprompt.snow.utoronto.ca/
Website analysis http://www.websiteoptimization.com/services/analyze/
Website Checklist http://www.xs4all.nl/~sbpoley/webmatters/checklist.html

css tutorials and other fun 'n giggly css stuff:
http://www.css.nu/
http://www.mako4css.com/
http://www.richinstyle.com/
http://www.blazonry.com/css/
http://www.w3schools.com/css/
http://www.websitetips.com/css/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/reference/css/
http://www.pageresource.com/dhtml/indexcss.htm
http://www.climbtothestars.org/coding/cssbasic/
http://www.htmlcenter.com/tutorials/index.cfm/css/
http://www.freewebmastertips.com/php/content.php3?aid=48
http://www.canit.se/~griffon/web/writing_stylesheets.html
http://www.utoronto.ca/ian/books/xhtml2/exerpt/css-4a.html
http://idm.internet.com/articles/200101/csstutorial1a.html
http://www.greytower.net/en/archive/articles/tsutsumi.html
http://www.westciv.com.au/style_master/academy/css_tutorial/
http://webmonkey.com/authoring/stylesheets/tutorials/tutorial1.html

layout examples:
http://www.glish.com/css/
http://www.csszengarden.com/
http://www.wannabegirl.org/css/
http://tantek.com/CSS/Examples/
http://www.saila.com/usage/layouts/
http://www.bluerobot.com/web/layouts/
http://www.benmeadowcroft.com/webdev/
http://nemesis1.f2o.org/templates.php
http://www.xs4all.nl/~apple77/columns/
http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/
http://www.htmler.org/tutorials/3/1.html
http://css.nu/articles/floating-boxes.html
http://webhost.bridgew.edu/etribou/layouts/
http://www.roguelibrarian.com/lj/index.html
http://css-discuss.incutio.com/?page=CssLayouts
http://ecoculture.com/styleguide/r/rollovers.html
http://thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html
http://www.webreference.com/authoring/style/sheets/layout/advanced/

some sites using css layouts:
http://www.inc.com/
http://www.wired.com/
http://www.opera.com/
http://www.kitty5.com/
http://www.cinnamon.nl/
http://msn.espn.go.com/
http://www.virtuelvis.com/
http://www.emptybottle.org/
http://www.fastcompany.com/
http://www.littleyellowdifferent.com/

rounded corners:
http://www.albin.net/CSS/roundedCorners/
http://www.webweaver.org/dan/css/corners/
http://www.alistapart.com/articles/customcorners/
http://www.guyfisher.com/builder/workshop/css/corners/

slants: http://www.infimum.dk/HTML/slantinfo.html
lists: http://www.alistapart.com/stories/taminglists/
pure css menus: http://www.meyerweb.com/eric/css/edge/menus/demo.html
Fast rollovers: http://www.pixy.cz/blogg/clanky/cssnopreloadrollovers/

centering thingys
http://dorward.me.uk/www/centre/
http://www.w3.org/Style/Examples/007/center.html
http://www.student.oulu.fi/~laurirai/www/css/middle/

master compatibility charts:
http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/css/index.html
http://macedition.com/cb/resources/abridgedcsssupport.html
old:
http://www.immix.net/html/CSSGuide.htm
http://devedge.netscape.com/library/xref/2003/css-support/

hiding CSS from crappy browsers:
http://diveintomark.org/safari/csshacks/
http://www.ericmeyeroncss.com/bonus/trick-hide.html
http://www.w3development.de/css/hide_css_from_browsers/

css checkers:
http://jigsaw.w3.org/css-validator/
http://www.htmlhelp.com/tools/csscheck/

cascading style sheets, level 1 specification
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS1
cascading style sheets, level 2 specification
http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/
Can anyone offer advice?

1. hang around in html type newsgroups for 12+ months
2. ask intelligent questions
3. kill file me (its just less painful that way)
4. read FAQs
5. chant "frames are evil" at least 5hrs/day
6. follow, read and keep links and posts of interest
http://www.milenix.com/ is excellent. example:
http://moreshit.bruciesusenetshit.info/myinfo.png
I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

always a problem with new fun 'n giggly things. just don't expect or try
to know everything at once and make lots of mistakes, you'll learn a
hell of a lot more trying to fix them than you would getting it right
the first time.
 
B

brucie

in post: <
Els said:
[list of free editors]
Your list is too short, brucie, you forgot TextPad:
http://www.textpad.com/

no i didn't. its in my not free editor list:

textpad: http://www.textpad.com/
notetab: http://www.notetab.com/
editplus: http://www.editplus.com/
ultraedit: http://www.idmcomp.com/
editpad: http://www.editpadpro.com/
hypertext studio: http://www.olsonsoft.com/
namo: http://www.namo.com/products/webeditor/
acehtml pro: http://www.visicommedia.com/acehtml/
ibm websphere: http://www-3.ibm.com/software/webservers/hpbuilder/
spider writer: http://www.actiprosoftware.com/Products/SpiderWriter/

are here are some others:

PHP
phpedit: http://phpedit.org/ [free]
Winsyntax: http://winsyntax.com/ [free]
HydraPHP: http://www.coldmind.com/ [comming soon]
Davor's PHP Editor: http://www.pleskina.com/dphped/main.php [free]

XML
xray: http://www.architag.com/xray/ [free]
peters xml eiditor: http://www.iol.ie/~pxe/ [free]
xmlspy: http://www.xmlspy.com/products_ide.html [$400]
turboxml: http://www.tibco.com/solutions/products/extensibility/turbo_xml.jsp [$270]
 
W

Whitecrest

HTML is a data format. It is used for structuring information. You can't
program in it.

Nitpick. You know what he meant.
Text editor: good.
Notepad: bad
Try something with syntax highlighting. JEdit <http://www.jedit.org> is a
good choice, its free and available on multiple platforms. It also does tag
completion for you.

good advice....
 
W

William Tasso

Els said:
...
http://www.textpad.com/

It's the one I left Notepad for.

Which syn file are you using for ...
o css
o html
o scripting

(just setting up a new workstation)

I can promise you a major sized portion of my exceedingly brilliant bubble &
squeak[1] on your next visit if you've found a good syn file for server side
scripting with embeded html ;o)

[1] voucher is also redemable against curry, chilli, beer or any other
kitchen product.
 
S

Ste

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file. The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

Also, I know that I can get a form to e-mail me it's contents upon a user
clicking a 'submit' button but for the life of me can't work out how. I've
set up a form but I think I'm supposed to have some particular script from
my ISP? I don't even have a website yet, I'm just trying to learn the basics
by writing and displaying in Internet Explorer and testing. But I'm having
no luck.

Can anyone offer advice? I've looked at website and searched places like
google but I'm afraid the mass of information is just too much for a
beginner, it's like a needle in a hay stack.

Ste
 
J

Jeff Thies

Is ther anybody who can help me? Or atleast point me to an FAQ? I'm really
new to programming in HTML and have so far just been following books and
building up a web page bit by bit. I have no fancy editor, so I'm just doing
it by in notepad and saving as a HTML file.

Notepad is a bit too simple and will make many things difficult. Try one of
the many free text editors, I use NoteTab lite.
The problem is that the books
just don't explain enough.

My main problem is with automation. I know from other websites that I can
use html to have a form collect data and automatically update an information
file that will then automatically change information on a webpage, but I
haven't a clue how to go about it. The books suggest something about
scripts, but what they are I don't know :(

What do you want to do? Do you really want to learn server side scripting?

Look at the cgi/perl,php and ASP tutorials and see what you feel most
comfortable with.

Pony up the $9.00 a month (or less) for a web host and go for it. No matter
what you are doing you will need to put sample pages on the web for others
to look at and you will need some web space to do that. You won't go too far
in usenet without someone asking for a URL to look at!

http://affordablehost.com/cpanel.shtml is all of $6/month.

Do one of the many tutorials and when you get stuck, ask in an appropriate
newsgroup (probably not the ones you posted this to).

BTW, if you choose perl, add this line near the top of your script:
use CGI::Carp 'fatalsToBrowser';

Perl has excellent error messages and will generally tell you exactly what
you have done wrong.

Most newbies can get by with existing scripts and there's tons of script
repositories:

<URL: http://nms-cgi.sourceforge.net/scripts.shtml>

Although, most web hosts already have many common scripts installed and
instructions for using them.

Cheers,
Jeff
 
S

Ste

A long one, but none the less quite informative.

Thanks to you all for replying so quickly. I reckon the common consensus is
right-I should get happy with static pages. I do have plans to have a form
filled out that will change the content of something else on the page in
real time but I'm not gonna try that. I ain't gonna be running before I'm
walking,

ste
 
E

Els

William said:
Which syn file are you using for ...
o css
o html
o scripting

Not sure what a syn file is, actually, I use TextPad for
html, and for css as well, allthough I might switch to
TopStyle(lite) for that. That one shows (by colouring)
directly if a certain style is supported in a specific
browser or not.
(just setting up a new workstation)

First time on XP?
I can promise you a major sized portion of my exceedingly brilliant bubble &
squeak[1] on your next visit if you've found a good syn file for server side
scripting with embeded html ;o)

hmm.. sounds like I'd better find out what a syn file is ;-)
Server side scripting with embedded html: do you mean Perl
scripts which generate html pages? I do those in TextPad as
well.
[1] voucher is also redemable against curry, chilli, beer or any other
kitchen product.

I'll keep that in mind, btw didn't know beer was a kitchen
product ;-)
 
B

brucie

in post: <
Samuël van Laere said:
What about Cooktop?
Its not in your list of free XML editors:

i cant remember it but i have it on my pending list. i cant remember
why, its usually because there was something icky.

my connection these days is too slow to download it (1.3k). i'll add it
to the list and if it screws up i'll point at you with my pointy stick
(which is the only editor anyone needs anyway)
Very kind regards,
Samuël

kissy
 
W

William Tasso

Els said:
Not sure what a syn file is, actually, I use TextPad for
html, and for css as well, allthough I might switch to
TopStyle(lite) for that. That one shows (by colouring)
directly if a certain style is supported in a specific
browser or not.

They're part of the magic of textpad. They associate highlighting rules
based on file name extensions.
First time on XP?

No - but first time in anger (proper dev/admin workstation)
I can promise you a major sized portion of my exceedingly brilliant
bubble & squeak[1] on your next visit if you've found a good syn
file for server side scripting with embeded html ;o)

hmm.. sounds like I'd better find out what a syn file is ;-)
http://www.textpad.com/add-ons/syna2g.html

Server side scripting with embedded html: do you mean Perl
scripts which generate html pages? I do those in TextPad as
well.

yes as well as ASP/vbScript, PHP etc.
[1] voucher is also redemable against curry, chilli, beer or any
other kitchen product.

I'll keep that in mind, btw didn't know beer was a kitchen
product ;-)

My kitchen produces all manner of wonderful and fearsome thingies.
 

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