[Code Challenge] WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Bryan]

Yes and you made your selfishness quite clear! Be careful my friend,
because as Tyler found out, this mindset becomes a slippery slope
*very* quickly!

I merely made the observation that most programmers don't think about
these topics and it would be good to get some more enlightenment, you
now you're accusing me of selfishness? That's an impressive mental
leap, though I don't think you quite made it to the other side.

Did you perhaps interpret my comment as "programmers SHOULDN'T think
about..."? I'm not saying programmers shouldn't think about these
things. On the contrary, all programmers _should_ think about them.
They don't, at least in my experience. That's a problem, it needs to
be fixed. If you think that's a mindset that's on a slippery slope,
you're the only one.

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

Here, here. From my queries to some of the Tcl/Tk folks, it seems that
while the knowledge and expertise is not present in the core developer
community, they would be more than happy to help people who do have some
knowledge in this area so that Tk could be made to be more accessible.

Grand conspiracies aside, I think the development communities behind
most GUI toolkits would be very receptive to people who could help make
developing accessible applications with their toolkits feasible.

(And if/when this does get done for Tk, I promise at least to make sure
that the tutorial at http:///www.tkdocs.com covers this topic).

Mark

It would be great if the Tk/Tkinter developers would be interested in making this GUI lib accessible.
There are no many people that know about this thing, but there are standards like MSAA that can be followed by them if they really want to offer accessibility.
I guess that if Tkinter would support MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility) in its Windows version, the screen readers would be able to offer support for Tk (or it might be offered by default... I don't know).

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

From: "Bryan" <[email protected]>
I wish I could respond to that, but I have no experience with screen
readers. Are there any free ones, or ones with free trials, that I
could try out? I'm not yet convinced it's any better or worse than
wxPython since you're only a single datapoint, but of course it's
possible. If you know of any free tools I can use to experiment, I'd
appreciate you posting them in this newsgroup.

Accessibility, like internationalization, is something few programmers
spend much time thinking about. I can only imagine the frustration one
must experience if all interactions had to be through a screen reader.




Hi Bryan,

(And thank you for your interest)

The most used screen reader and the one that have the most features is JAWS that can be downloaded from:

http://www.freedomscientific.com/downloads/jaws/jaws-downloads.asp

You can use it for 40 minutes after which you need to restart the computer to be able to use it again.

You can test that simple sample WxPython app and compare it with any Tk-based app.
Please tell us what you find.

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

There's more to internationalization than just Unicode. There's the
ability to handle messages in various languages which have a different
syntax and grammar.

There's an interesting Perl-oriented article on it here:

http://search.cpan.org/dist/Locale-...lization_Horror_Story:_It_Could_Happen_To_You
--

Perl offers a great support for I18n/L10N including its native support for UTF-8, and I am glad that Python 3 will also have improvements for it.
Just like the I18N, it would be a good idea if Python will also start to promote the accessibility, because just like the internationalization, it is targetted to make the programs accessible by as many users as possible.

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

From: "rantingrick" <[email protected]>
Tyler's argument, which lacked greatly in compassion for people with
disabilities brought out my accusation. It was not an accusation meant
to merely insult just to invoke a flame war; which is the definition
of Godwins Law.

It is a fact that Tyler displayed despicable intolerance for people
who have disabilities and such a correlation to totalitarian regimes
was not only the correct response but in fact the only response to
such veiled hate speech. We cannot allow such displays to slip by
unchallenged by this community. And hopefully Tyler will see the
unjust position he has taken and beg for forgiveness.



Tyler is not intolerant. He is a blind person.
He is one that cares more to please the others that might help it more in its life than to advocate for the benefit of the entire world.

Octavian

 

[rantingrick]

I merely made the observation that most programmers don't think about
these topics and it would be good to get some more enlightenment, you
now you're accusing me of selfishness?

If you are not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
I think you *do* want to help proliferate accessibility. However, you
have not displayed the attitude that we need to win the fight. You
see, selfishness is a natural human trait. We all harbor selfishness
to some degree. Even myself! We cannot fully ever be free of this
selfishness. However we can fight and suppress selfishness until it's
ill effects have no "noticeable" effect.

This is what i am speaking of when i say that you are part of the
problem. You need to educate your co-workers about accessibility. You
need to make them aware of their own selfish and erroneous ways. Then
and only then shall *you* be part of the solution. But don't expect
that they will just roll over! This will be an uphill battle so we
must be persistent! They need to choose libraries that are supporting
accessibility. Or at least choose a library that is *aware* of
accessibility and is moving forward into full blown support of
accessibility.

A comment was made earlier by Mark Roseman about how he would document
accessibly in Tkinter *if* someone else would bring Tk accessibility
into being. This is just one more example of someone paying lip
service to a problem without actually suppressing his selfishness and
producing some action. Mark needs to sound the battle call at his
site. He needs to send an email to the TclTk-dev team daily and ask
how they are coming along with accessibility. Then he needs to post
the response -- or lack there of-- on his site for all to see. He
needs to change his attitude from passive to aggressive. Then and only
then shall change come.

Change happens only when people demand change. And sadly the power to
change accessibility lies not in the hands of those directly affected
but in the hands of those twice removed from the torments of
accessibility. This is the same problem all GUI developers face with
the multiplicity of GUI libraries. If we could get these selfish and
moronic OS developers to agree on one GUI standard then our lives, and
the lives of our users would be bliss. Then we could have universal
accessibility, universal rich widget sets, universal cross platform-
ability, universal speed, universal look and feel, etc, etc.

 

[Ethan Furman]

> I am not
> trying to create a working file browser so you can steal my code.

This thread has been an eye opener for myself [...]
> we cannot even work together to get some simple code
debugged.

Aha! So you want to steal our code to fix yours? Why am I not surprised?

~Ethan~

 

[Neil Hodgson]

Octavian Rasnita:

There are no many people that know about this thing,
but there are standards like MSAA that can be followed
by them if they really want to offer accessibility. I
guess that if Tkinter would support MSAA (Microsoft
Active Accessibility) in its Windows version, the screen
readers would be able to offer support for Tk (or it
might be offered by default... I don't know).

MSAA was superseded by Microsoft UI Automation in 2005 which in turn
was superseded by Windows Automation API in Windows 7.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd561932(v=vs.85).aspx

Making Tk as accessible as Windows or GTK+ would be a huge job.

Neil

 

[Littlefield, Tyler]

RR, you idiot. Did you -not- read that I was blind and using a screen
reader? And wasn't it -you- yelling at someone about reading and
comprehention?

[...snip: good discussion...]

Rather, I believe
those pushing accessibility should concentrate on the root cause; that
of fixing TKInter, and not forcing everyone else to use a different
library.

Now you go too far!

And this is an ironic position from someone who supports the stdlib
GUI that IS forced on us by default. Sure you can choose a different
library, but in the case of a user (and accessibility is a big USER
concern when that user is handicapped!) the library is already chosen
(Tkinter:which does not support accessibility) by the developer . I
can also argue that Tkinter's inclusion in the stdlib is proliferating
non-compliance with accessibility. I'll bet you would not park in a
handicap spot however you support a GUI library that ignores handicap
people? IRONIC!

I believe that the approach is the main key here, and I have had this
argument many times. If I wrote an app, and someone said something
along
the lines of "you need to change a core library because it doesn't work
with this program," my first response would be who the hell are you to
say what I need to use?

Well these people you are chastising are disabled people. Who the hell
are YOU to be high and mighty about it? I guess these "disabled"
people get what they deserve huh! Maybe we should just do the world a
favor and exterminate them like the Nazis? That way we don't have to
cater to their selfish needs!

[snip]
I'd like to invoke Godwin's law at this point.

 

[rantingrick]

   Making Tk as accessible as Windows or GTK+ would be a huge job.

Not if we used the underlying MS library! Windows has such a rich
library why not use it? Why must we constantly re-invent the wheel?
Windowing GUIs are not recent technology. These things have been
around for decades. When are we going to agree on a damn standard. Is
it not far passed time to drop the selfishness and work together? I
said it before...

"Multiplicity is very important in emerging systems however at some
point we must reign in the madness else entropy will destroy the
entire system."

Selfishness = Multiplicity = Entropy = Shock = Stagnation = None

 

[Infinity77]

The crash on Linux is due to SetSingleStyle removing the all items and
the columns when the mode of the listctrl is changed, and then the
code continues on with the assumption that the columns still exist and
the crash happens when an item is added to column zero and there is no
column zero.  Apparently the native widget on Windows doesn't have
that limitation.  BTW, if the linux wx packages had the runtime
assertions turned on then you would have seen a Python exception with
some clues that would probably help solve the problem. I don't know
about others but on Ubuntu you can install the *wx*-dbg packages to
get a version with the assertions turned on.  Hopefully that will
change starting with 2.9 as wx now turns on the assertions by default
for builds configured normally, and the wx-dev team recommends that
the assertions are not turned off, except in rare circumstances.

BTW, on behalf of the wxPython community I'd like to apologize for the
havoc caused by the flaming troll escaping from his cage.  In general
wxPython users are much less militant and zealotty and honor
everyone's freedom to choose which ever UI tool kit works the best for
their own needs.

I have been involved in the wxPython development for many years
(mostly on implementation of custom widgets, in the AGW library), and
I share Robin's concerns about this kind of "publicity" given to
wxPython.

Python comes with TK as a "battery included" UI toolkit. I'm perfectly
fine with this, as I am not going to use it anyway. Whether in the
future TK will be replaced by PyGTK, PyQT, PySide, etc... in the
standard library, it won't make any difference to those aficionados
developers who use wxPython. We'll still download the wxPython
binaries/sources/whatever and use it to develop our own GUIs. There is
simply no match between wxPython and X (substitute X with whatever GUI
toolkit you like). This is obviously my very biased opinion.

It is very unfortunate that this topic "wxPython vs. Tkinter" has
drifted to another flame war, as there is really no point in this kind
of discussion. As a general rule, a GUI-newbie should try all the GUI
toolkits out there and settle with the one which looks easier/nicer/
more convenient/more feature rich. As usual, it is a matter of
personal taste.

For those experiencing with wxPython for the first time, I highly
suggest you to join our wxPython mailing list: you'll find a friendly
place, with many experienced developers answering questions and a BDFL
who's there (almost) every day offering solutions for the toughest
problems.

Andrea.

 

[Littlefield, Tyler]

It would be great if the Tk/Tkinter developers would be interested in
making >this GUI lib accessible.
They're not going to do it without knowing what makes accessible
accessible, and why it needs to be so. So, rather than tell the world
about how -some- blind people want to be like sighted people (we call
that independence in my world), why not go help out? It's bad, you want
a switch, and you've already said that they're using a lib that is
unaccessible. So fix the lib, and you will have fixed tons of programs
without fixing the program. That is all I ment by finding the root of
the problem, not "everyone with readers should fix their health
problems." You take my words, blow them out of perportion and at the end
of the day, you are still sitting here complaining about the lack of
accessibility, rather than doing something about it. This is awesome. We
for sure need more complainers and less people to do what the
complainers are complaining about!

 

[Neil Hodgson]

rantingrick:

Not if we used the underlying MS library! Windows has such a rich
library why not use it? Why must we constantly re-invent the wheel?

It is up to the GUI toolkit or application to implement the
interfaces defined by Windows Automation API on every object it
displays. The standard Windows controls have this implemented. Tk does
not use these controls so would have to do all that work again.

Neil

 

[rantingrick]

I have been involved in the wxPython development for many years
(mostly on implementation of custom widgets, in the AGW library), and
I share Robin's concerns about this kind of "publicity" given to
wxPython.

Who cares what you think about wxPython's publicity. A module was
created and put on public display and can be ridiculed or supported by
anyone who so desires.

Python comes with TK as a "battery included" UI toolkit. I'm perfectly
fine with this, as I am not going to use it anyway. Whether in the
future TK will be replaced by PyGTK, PyQT, PySide, etc... in the
standard library, it won't make any difference to those aficionados
developers who use wxPython. We'll still download the wxPython
binaries/sources/whatever and use it to develop our own GUIs.

Good, and again i cannot stress how little we care about your opinion.
Why do we not care. Well because you are looking at this from a
wxPython perspective. You are being selfish. We are considering this
from a global Python perspective. What is good for Python may not be
good for you, in any event, it is for us to decide. You can join our
discussion when your perspective changes from "me" to "us". And the
"us" is the Python langauge NOT wxPython.

It is very unfortunate that this topic "wxPython vs. Tkinter" has
drifted to another flame war,

There is no flame war here

as there is really no point in this kind
of discussion.

Says you. but who are you to say what is important to us. Go back to
wxPython.

As a general rule, a GUI-newbie should try all the GUI
toolkits out there and settle with the one which looks easier/nicer/
more convenient/more feature rich. As usual, it is a matter of
personal taste.

And i agree. I think any sane person could agree also. However you
miss the point of this conversation. We are looking at Python from a
global perspective. You are limited in your views, and obviously very
biased. And i know the real reason you and Robin do not want wxPython
in the stdlib. Because you do not want to lose your selfish status
within the wxPython community. When wxPython becomes a stdlib module
then you will answer directly to Guido and Python-dev. You are not
fooling anyone with this grandstanding.

Selfishness = Multiplicity = Entropy = Shock = Stagnation = None

 

[Littlefield, Tyler]

Because of this, many blind people try to show that they are like the
sighted, that they can do everything, that they are >independent, so
they like to

>talk about the movies they watch, they like to have touch-pad mobile

phones and so on, even though the accessibility of >those gadgets is
really low.
While I am getting off topic here, I just had to comment...
Yes, I do talk about "watching" tv. Not having working eyeballs doesn't
limit me from using a word that people with common sense can just equate
to listening to tv. And neither does not having working eyeballs limit
me from -listening- to tv, which is what I and other blind people that
want to "watch" tv do. And guess what? I can use a phone with a touch
screen. It's called an IPhone, and it's got a screen reader built in.
Nifty, huh? It just helps me in my goal to be just like sighted people,
blame Apple for making a touch screen accessible.

I say this all because I want to make a point. I don't expect the world
to revolve around what is and isn't accessible. While laws do exist, if
I ran around quoting the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) at
everyone who didn't make things accessible (whether on the computer, at
school, at a store), I'd just be wasting time. Rather I like to blend
in, be independant and adapt things. Now, since i am a programmer this
means that I am able to do a lot more in the form of adaptation on the
computer, and this is my goal; if something is broke, fix the root or
work with the developer. Don't just whine about it not being accessible.
It will get you nowhere, and it's people like Octavian I dread having
had people meat before because by golly, -everything- better be accessible.

So, call me a Nazi or whatever, that's just how I feel. The world
doesn't come on a silver platter, and so if Octavian, or I, or anyone
else wants any sort of changes done (as in the changes to TkInter), work
needs to go into helping these changes come about. Making a library part
of the STDLib and then worrying about the fact that it segfaults later
is foolish, especially if you are going to do it just for accessibility.
And regardless of whether RR gets his deepest wish and it is made part
of the STDLib, people will still use TKInter. What then, for those with
readers? Should we just abolish TKInter altogether?

 

[rantingrick]

RR, you idiot. Did you -not- read that I was blind and using a screen
reader? And wasn't it -you- yelling at someone about reading and
comprehention?
On 1/24/2011 12:34 PM, MRAB wrote:

Are you telling me that you are blind? You better not be lying about
this Tyler because the only thing worse than an compassionate person
is who impersonates a blind person for sake of winning an argument.

Now, if you really are blind then why the heck would you be supporting
Tkinter? Tkinter has no support for accessibility -- as Octavian
pointed out. However, you seem to want to keep Tkinter at all costs.
Why? And furthermore why are you so rabidly resistive to wxPython?

 

[rantingrick]

I say this all because I want to make a point. I don't expect the world
to revolve around what is and isn't accessible. While laws do exist, if
I ran around quoting the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) at
everyone who didn't make things accessible (whether on the computer, at
school, at a store), I'd just be wasting time.

I disagree, you would be educating people and you would be suppressing
selfishness.

Rather I like to blend
in, be independant and adapt things. Now, since i am a programmer this
means that I am able to do a lot more in the form of adaptation on the
computer, and this is my goal; if something is broke, fix the root or
work with the developer.

Have you tried to "fix" Tkinters non-existent accessibility? Have you
campaigned for change? Have you written any code? Just FYI: Tkinter
has been around for 20 plus years!

Don't just whine about it not being accessible.
It will get you nowhere, and it's people like Octavian I dread having
had people meat before because by golly, -everything- better be accessible.

You know Tyler for someone that depends on accessibility as much as
you you sure are a supporter of non-compliance. I think you are lying
about being blind. And if you are, i am disgusted.

So, call me a Nazi or whatever, that's just how I feel. The world
doesn't come on a silver platter, and so if Octavian, or I, or anyone
else wants any sort of changes done (as in the changes to TkInter), work
needs to go into helping these changes come about.

Yes and making an argument is part of that work. Good arguments change
minds.

Making a library part
of the STDLib and then worrying about the fact that it segfaults later
is foolish,

Of course it's foolish to do that. No one is suggesting that we throw
wxPython in the stdlib as is. We know some work needs to be done. Heck
maybe an abstraction API needs to be written. Don't be so theatrical
Tyler, it wins you no points.

especially if you are going to do it just for accessibility.

We are not doing it JUST for accessibility! Accessibility is just one
of many reasons. The most important reason is to keep Python relevant
in the 21st century.

And regardless of whether RR gets his deepest wish and it is made part
of the STDLib, people will still use TKInter.

Yes, i am not trying to destroy Tkinter. I am trying to tell you that
Tkinter is dead weight for Python.

What then, for those with
readers? Should we just abolish TKInter altogether?
On 1/24/2011 1:45 PM, Octavian Rasnita wrote:

Well if i were a blind person i would use the most accessible GUI
available.

 

[Bryan]

...
Good, and again i cannot stress how little we care about your opinion.

You keep using the word "we". I do not think it means what you think
it means.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

For the record, that is not who I was referring to.

I don't believe that anyone in their right mind could have imagined even
for a second that you were referring to Bryan.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

I was
being a closed minded idiot at the time. I have since evolved.

"Was"?

It's been fun (for some definition of fun) watching your grandstanding,
your haranguing the community into doing things your way, your insulting
the blind for being insufficiently demanding of screen-reader support,
and generally bullying everyone here. Unfortunately I've wasted far too
much time reading your theatrics. It's time for another six months in the
kill-file, I think.