[Code Challenge] WxPython versus Tkinter.

[Grant Edwards]

"Was"?

It's been fun (for some definition of fun) watching your
grandstanding, your haranguing the community into doing things your
way, your insulting the blind for being insufficiently demanding of
screen-reader support, and generally bullying everyone here.
Unfortunately I've wasted far too much time reading your theatrics.

Unfortunately, some of us have been guilty of poking him with a stick
just to watch him jump and yell.

It's time for another six months in the kill-file, I think.

That doesn't really help much. RR has been in my killfile since
before his first posting. But, thanks to people who quote his rantings
in their entirety, I think I've seen pretty much all of them.

 

[rantingrick]

[...snip: Steven Trolling...]

Unfortunately, some of us have been guilty of poking him with a stick
just to watch him jump and yell.

Every one of my threads (or threads i replied to) Steven has trolled
them all. He never engages me in direct battle because he lacks the
mental prowess i possess. He fears me and it shows. He fears me
because i have a vision and he has none. He fears me because HE fears
change. Should i post links to all the threads you have trolled up
Steven as evidence of your trollish behavior? You never had the balls
to engage me and you never will! Sadly you are one of the most
knowledgeable within this group yet you spend 99% of your time
trolling for your own self gratification. Why have you not offered any
opinions on Wx versus Tkinter? Why have you not offered any code?
BECAUSE YOU ARE A TROLL! Plain and simple.

Good riddance! Make it a year, ten years, i don't care!

That doesn't really help much.  RR has been in my killfile since
before his first posting. But, thanks to people who quote his rantings
in their entirety, I think I've seen pretty much all of them.

Well kill file D'Aprano and just shrink your listener even more. The
funny thing about selfishness and arrogance is that they are both self
defeating. However many in this group wear these attributes with
pride. Yes, go ahead and stick your head in the sand and imagine the
world does not exist -- because when you do you leave your backside
sticking out in a good position for kicking! *kick*

 

[Robin Dunn]

And i know the real reason you and Robin do not want wxPython
in the stdlib. Because you do not want to lose your selfish status
within the wxPython community. When wxPython becomes a stdlib module
then you will answer directly to Guido and Python-dev. You are not
fooling anyone with this grandstanding.

Oh my, the BS certainly is getting deep around here. It doesn't look
like my hip-waders will be enough... Now where did I put that full-
body bio-hazard environment suit?

--Robin

 

[Alexander Kapps]

There are two completely different issues here:

1. Tyler's/Octavian's very valid (but AFAICT now somewhat
over-expressed) point that Tk/Tkinter isn't accessible.

I accept this, but don't see any point against Tk(inter) in this per
se. Tk(inter) could be advanced to support screen readers and such.

2. RR's aggressive, insulting, self-praising war against Tk(inter)
(which, IIRC, he ones praised)

I *really* don't understand why RR gets so much attention. He has
(massively!) insulted everybody around, has shown his low knowledge
and understanding, his selfish and arrogant behaviour, etc.

As I see it, please don't fall trap when RR now supports the
accessible issue. I'm quite sure, that he just misuses that.



Now that Godwin has been called, let me say also this:

Check some earlier posts of RR (especially unicode related, but also
his whole "command structure", "leader", "one for all", etc stuff)
and it should be clear who is the izan. (*)


Wake me, if RR is chased out of town and we can start a real
discussion about the future of Python GUIs and accessibility.



(*)
I'm German and I just *KNOW* what to think about people who accuse
random opponents as aniz. Our politicians do that quite regularly
and the *ONLY* aim behind this is plain and simply to discredit the
opponent when the arguments run out.

 

[Steven D'Aprano]

I *really* don't understand why RR gets so much attention. He has
(massively!) insulted everybody around, has shown his low knowledge and
understanding, his selfish and arrogant behaviour, etc.

http://xkcd.com/386/

 

[rantingrick]

CODE UPDATE

 * fixed linux whiners bug

https://sites.google.com/site/thefutureofpython/home/code-challenges

So what? Now that the code runs without segfault nobody has nothing to
say? I guess you have nothing to complain about now huh? So go ahead
and admit wxPython won this round so we can move on to round two, our
post some Tkinter ListCtrl code.

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Who cares what you think about wxPython's publicity. A module was
created and put on public display and can be ridiculed or supported by
anyone who so desires.


Good, and again i cannot stress how little we care about your opinion.
Why do we not care. Well because you are looking at this from a
wxPython perspective. You are being selfish. We are considering this
from a global Python perspective. What is good for Python may not be
good for you, in any event, it is for us to decide. You can join our
discussion when your perspective changes from "me" to "us". And the
"us" is the Python langauge NOT wxPython.



There is no flame war here


Says you. but who are you to say what is important to us. Go back to
wxPython.


And i agree. I think any sane person could agree also. However you
miss the point of this conversation. We are looking at Python from a
global perspective. You are limited in your views, and obviously very
biased. And i know the real reason you and Robin do not want wxPython
in the stdlib. Because you do not want to lose your selfish status
within the wxPython community. When wxPython becomes a stdlib module
then you will answer directly to Guido and Python-dev. You are not
fooling anyone with this grandstanding.

I can't believe I'm actually getting into this, but--

wxPython is open source, and technically anyone has the legal right to
include it in whatever they want -- but no module goes into stdlib,
period, without it being donated by its authors for that purpose.
Period. Python-dev is not so discourteous as to absorb someone elses
code without their go-ahead (and more then that: they don't generally
absorb anyone elses code without that person making a _commitment_ to
supporting it, in the stdlib, for multiple years).

So: no author answers to Guido unless they decide they want to.

Not that I'm suggesting Robin wouldn't go for it if someone with actual
standing asked: but I'm not suggesting he would, either. I have no idea
if the stdlib development cycle fits the wxPython one, since wxPython
tracks wxWidgets releases. (Totally notwithstanding the elephant in the
room that nothing new is going to go into 2.x at all, and wxPython
doesn't presently support 3.x.)

Robin actually has an unappealable veto over the whole idea, if he so
chose to exercise it.

Just thought I'd interject some reality into your delusion that there is
some Python Kingdom and that King Guido can "decide" all manner of
things and it'll cause them to happen.

But we've had this conversation before, you and I.

Also, rick != the_community. You don't get to speak for "we".

But we've had that conversation too, you and I.


--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[rantingrick]

On 1/24/11 2:16 PM, rantingrick wrote:

wxPython is open source, and technically anyone has the legal right to
include it in whatever they want -- but no module goes into stdlib,
period, without it being donated by its authors for that purpose.

Ok. So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into the
stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th stdlib?
Ok, go on...

Period. Python-dev is not so discourteous as to absorb someone elses
code without their go-ahead (and more then that: they don't generally
absorb anyone elses code without that person making a _commitment_ to
supporting it, in the stdlib, for multiple years).

So: no author answers to Guido unless they decide they want to.

Ok? So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into the
stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th stdlib?
Ok, go on...

Not that I'm suggesting Robin wouldn't go for it if someone with actual
standing asked: but I'm not suggesting he would, either.

Ok! So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into the
stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th stdlib?
Ok, go on...

I have no idea
if the stdlib development cycle fits the wxPython one, since wxPython
tracks wxWidgets releases. (Totally notwithstanding the elephant in the
room that nothing new is going to go into 2.x at all, and wxPython
doesn't presently support 3.x.)

OK,OK,OK!! So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into
the stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th
stdlib? HOWEVER no matter what it FOR SURE can't go into Python2.x!
Ok, go on...

Robin actually has an unappealable veto over the whole idea, if he so
chose to exercise it.

GEESH!! So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into the
stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th stdlib?
Ok, go on...

Just thought I'd interject some reality into your delusion that there is
some Python Kingdom and that King Guido can "decide" all manner of
things and it'll cause them to happen.

Stephen can i sum up your post as..."it could go either way"?

PS: And you guys wonder why i rant so much!

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Ok. So you are saying that wxPython *could* possibly go into the
stdlib and equally wxPython could possibly *not* go into th stdlib?
Ok, go on...

No. I am saying as a matter of legal permissibility, it may be included
in the stdlib.

But, as a matter of both policy and ethical behavior, it will not
without it being donated by the author.

The words are not big.

You can understand them, if you try, really hard. Honest.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Thomas L. Shinnick]

At 10:39 PM 1/24/2011, Jason Swails wrote:
[snip]

Two valuable things I have taken away from this extended
argument: 1) This being my first super-high volume mailing list
with the occasional neurotically opinionated poster, MRAB introduced
me to Godwin's law for the first time. Considering its context,
much to my amusement (thank you). 2) Steven's XKCD comic that I had
not seen before. Also, considering its context, much to my amusement.

More wisdom therein ...
http://xkcd.com/438/

 

[rantingrick]

No. I am saying as a matter of legal permissibility, it may be included
in the stdlib.

But, as a matter of both policy and ethical behavior, it will not
without it being donated by the author.

I don't think you have any idea of what you are saying because you
keep parroting off the same thing in slightly different ways. I'm
having flashbacks to Forrest Gump...

Bubba: Anyway, like I was sayin', shrimp is the fruit of the sea. You
can barbecue it, boil it, broil it, bake it, saute it. Dey's uh,
shrimp-kabobs, shrimp creole, shrimp gumbo. Pan fried, deep fried,
stir-fried. There's pineapple shrimp, lemon shrimp, coconut shrimp,
pepper shrimp, shrimp soup, shrimp stew, shrimp salad, shrimp and
potatoes, shrimp burger, shrimp sandwich. That- that's about it.

So after presenting us with well known knowledge (and repeating it
many times) i feel compelled to bring us back to the subject matter at
hand. Do you have any actual argument to present that adds some
compelling ideas about Tkinters worth, or non worth?

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

As a general rule, a GUI-newbie should try all the GUI
toolkits out there and settle with the one which looks easier/nicer/

Yes it would be nice, but... does it happen that way usually?

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

making >this GUI lib accessible.
They're not going to do it without knowing what makes accessible
accessible, and why it needs to be so. So, rather than tell the world
about how -some- blind people want to be like sighted people (we call that
independence in my world), why not go help out? It's bad, you want a
switch, and you've already said that they're using a lib that is
unaccessible. So fix the lib, and you will have fixed tons of programs
without fixing the program. That is all I ment by finding the root of the
problem, not "everyone with readers should fix their health problems." You
take my words, blow them out of perportion and at the end of the day, you
are still sitting here complaining about the lack of accessibility, rather
than doing something about it. This is awesome. We for sure need more
complainers and less people to do what the complainers are complaining
about!

The solution for accessibility doesn't need to be found because it is
already found.
Making Tkinter accessible won't matter if it won't be used in Python
anymore.

Or is there a God law that tells that only Tk-based GUIs can be included in
Python?

Octavian

 

[Octavian Rasnita]

sighted, that they can do everything, that they are >independent, so they
like to
phones and so on, even though the accessibility of >those gadgets is
really low.
While I am getting off topic here, I just had to comment...
Yes, I do talk about "watching" tv. Not having working eyeballs doesn't
limit me from using a word that people with common sense can just equate
to listening to tv. And neither does not having working eyeballs limit me
from -listening- to tv, which is what I and other blind people that want
to "watch" tv do. And guess what? I can use a phone with a touch screen.
It's called an IPhone, and it's got a screen reader built in. Nifty, huh?
It just helps me in my goal to be just like sighted people, blame Apple
for making a touch screen accessible.

From your messages I was sure that you are one of those guys.

But can you imagine that not everyone is 20 years old and not everyone is
passionate about "cool" gadgets and not everyone is motivated to test as
much things as possible and look cool in their gang?
Try to care more about the others and not only about yourself just because
that way is more easy and effective.

I say this all because I want to make a point. I don't expect the world to
revolve around what is and isn't accessible.

Nobody cares about what you expect, because it seems that you are interested
only in what helps you immediately as easy as possible.
Nobody should think about what is accessible or not accessible because
ideally, everything should be designed to be accessible to everyone or at
least to as many people as possible.

While laws do exist, if I ran around quoting the ADA (Americans with
Disabilities Act) at everyone who didn't make things accessible (whether
on the computer, at school, at a store), I'd just be wasting time.

Oh, and you care more about your insignifiant time than the potential to
promote the accessibility for millions of users worldwide?
I don't blame you because everyone is a little selfish, some more and some
less, but at least don't try to demonstrate that the selfish atitude is the
one that should be folowed because it is more efective on the short term and
more simple.

Rather I like to blend in, be independant and adapt things. Now, since i
am a programmer this means that I am able to do a lot more in the form of
adaptation on the computer, and this is my goal;

This is a selfish atitude again. As I already said, any blind programmer can
choose the right language and/or GUI lib to make an accessible app so he/she
will be very happy, but what about the rest of the people?
Do you think that the discrimination is something normal?

So, call me a Nazi or whatever, that's just how I feel.

Ok, nazi is just another political party and there are very many people like
you, so this is not a problem.
But don't try to convince the others that the nazist opinions are those that
should be promoted.

Octavian

 

[Bob Martin]

Ok, great. You've identified one programmer who thinks about
internationalization. Not much of a compelling argument there.

However, I think you missed my point. My point wasn't that people like
Guido don't think of these topics. It's that the people in the
trenches who use these tools don't think about these topics. How many
of your co-workers actively think about internationalization and
accessibility? I'm guessing none, but maybe you're lucking and work in
a particularly enlightened team. I've perhaps worked closely with a
few hundred programmers in my career, and very few of them thought of
these subjects. In my experience it's just not something the
programmer in the trenches thinks about. That is the point I was
trying to make.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here. I spent my working life as a programmer
with a very large multi-national IT company and all software had to be fully
"internationalized" (otherwise known as NLS) or it didn't get used.
Do you think the whole world speaks US English?

 

[Stephen Hansen]

Or is there a God law that tells that only Tk-based GUIs can be included
in Python?

There is no other viable option at this time for inclusion in the
standard library; that's simple fact.

There are options for people to write GUI's in python that are
accessible. Those options do include the requirement of installing a
third-party library. That's not onerous.

Removing TK from the standard library at this point can't happen (at
least until a theoretical Python 4K): at least not without a 100%
compatible replacement which is functionally impossible (since it would
have to be compatible with TK addons, too).

Adding a secondary GUI framework would have to have an incredibly
compelling argument behind it: and developers pledging years of
maintenance in the python stdlib tree and with the python stdlib
development practices, because python-dev is overworked as it is. It
would need to be based on python 3.[2|3], need extensive tests and
documentation in a format compatible with python.org's documentation,
and solid cross-platform capability AND it be free of segfaultness, AND
the more code it is the harder it is to support its inclusion, as the
maintenance burden just becomes untenable-- and it would need to be
PEP-8 compliant-- and--

All of that doesn't hold for wxPython.

I use wxPython in my day job. I like wxPython a lot.

It belongs outside of the standard library.

If someone wants to devote man-years of development time to solve all of
the above to make it fit the stdlib, all power to you.

So far, it seems there maybe is two people who think it may be worth
their time.

I'm fine with installing wxPython as a third-party library.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Stephen Hansen]

I am not posting anyone's crap. I just informed why Tkinter is bad.
And I also don't say that WxPython is ideal, but just that it has some very important features that Tk doesn't offer.

Belatedly: The complaint was not that you had something to say in reply,
but that as you replied, you quoted the entire original post.

Netiquette holds that you should edit out your replies to include only
those things / statements you're actually responding to.

By just blanket replying and including the whole rant, you are posting
that whole rant. Needlessly, as its already been said. If you cut it
down and only include the points that you're responding to, you include
the specific context needed to understand your statements, while
minimizing the need for people to parse through noise.

--

Stephen Hansen
... Also: Ixokai
... Mail: me+list/python (AT) ixokai (DOT) io
... Blog: http://meh.ixokai.io/


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[Bryan]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with you here.  I spent my working life as a programmer
with a very large multi-national IT company and all software had to be fully
"internationalized" (otherwise known as NLS) or it didn't get used.  
Do you think the whole world speaks US English?

No, absolutely not. I don't see how you go from "I don't think all
developers think about i18n" to "I think everyone speaks english".

Most very large companies think about this a lot. Most hugely
successful software is probably internationalized. Together those two
groups make up a tiny fraction of all software. Think about all the
free software you use -- how much of it is internationalized and
optimized for accessibility? I bet not much. I wish I could say more
than half of all software is internationalized but I just don't
believe that to be true based on my own personal observation.

I definitely agree that many companies, both large and small, do the
right thing here. From my experience though, many != most. I hope I'm
wrong though, because that means the we're all headed in the right
direction.

 

[Bob Martin]

No, absolutely not. I don't see how you go from "I don't think all
developers think about i18n" to "I think everyone speaks english".

I said "US English", not just English, and you didn't say
"I don't think all developers think about i18n", you said "I'm guessing none".
Big difference. I think your attitude to this is US-only.

Most very large companies think about this a lot. Most hugely
successful software is probably internationalized. Together those two
groups make up a tiny fraction of all software. Think about all the
free software you use -- how much of it is internationalized and
optimized for accessibility? I bet not much. I wish I could say more
than half of all software is internationalized but I just don't
believe that to be true based on my own personal observation.

"I bet not much" - there you go again ;-)
You'll find that nearly all software used in Europe (and most other parts)
is internationalized or it wouldn't stand a chance.

 

[python]

Mark,

From my queries to some of the Tcl/Tk folks, it seems that while the knowledge and expertise is not present in the core developer

community, they would be more than happy to help people who do have some
knowledge in this area so that Tk could be made to be more accessible.

Some ideas here:

Linux: Linux users can use the free and small Tka11y library from the
site below. To use this library, one replaces "import Tkinter" with
"import Tka11y" - couldn't be easier!
http://tkinter.unpythonic.net/wiki/Tka11y

Mac OS X: Quoting Arndt Roger Schneider from this list: "I think Tk-aqua
(also 8.6) should work out-of-the-box with brail-lines, text-to-speech
and such; the older carbon built however won't." I'm not sure what is
involved in using an independent version of Tkinter that's newer than
the build of Tkinter that ships with the standard library?

Windows: While there appears(?) to be no built-in accessability for
Windows versions of Tkinter I've seen Windows Tkinter applications that
have used Windows native TTS functionality to provide a limited form of
accessability for users with poor vision.

And if/when this does get done for Tk, I promise at least to make sure that the tutorial at http:///www.tkdocs.com covers this topic

I really enjoyed your tkdocs.com site!! Based on the new ttk
functionality you covered on your site, my company actually began moving
GUI projects from wxPython back to Tkinter. How's that for an odd
trend?!

Malcolm