College degree or not

[Eric]

Sorry this isn't directly concerning a programming language but I
wanted to reach real programmers. I am in college right now and am not
really interested in investing 3 more years of my life for a Bachelors
degree. I know that I can learn more about computer programming if I
spent the time over the next 3 years reading books and programming at
my own pace rather than an instructors pace, as well as not needing to
take so many electives, and courses unrelated to programming. I would
also save a ton of money and time. The benefits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a overwhelming, and there seems to be
only one problem.

Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?

Can I please have your thoughts on this, Thank you

Shane

I'd say it's a pretty bad idea. Turning down education is kind of like
turning down a pile of gold. You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of
gold.

 

[Christopher Benson-Manica]

Will I still be competitive in the job market without a degree? Would I
be less likely to succeed in the programming field without a degree,
even if I knew more than someone with a degree?

I would say definitely yes; if you don't have a degree, it takes much
more effort on the part of an employer to determine whether you have
the basic competence that can reasonably be expected of someone with a
degree. You'll probably get paid more, too. There are a lot of IT
jobs you can get without a degree, mind you - my brother-in-law
recently got hired as a Linux system admin with no degree and limited
related experience other than some book reading - but for a programmer
there's no substitute for the structured instruction a good degree
will get you. Why not read your books AND get the degree? Put
together a nice project on the side? It can certainly be done and
you'll cover a lot more of your bases.

 

[Daniel T.]

Turning down education is kind of like turning down a pile of gold.
You can get by without it, but hey. Pile of gold.

That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.

 

[Wayne Marsh]

That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.

For those of you in the U.K. with the same dilemma, take a look at the
government institution The Open University. You study in your own time,
and the degree is highly respected because A) the quality of the
teaching materials is very high, and B) working for a degree on a
largely self-motivated basis is a very difficult thing to do, and shows
that you're a pretty capable person. It might take five, six, even ten
years to complete (although you COULD do it in three), but read on!

I got a good programming job (advertised for graduates only) on the
basis that I was /taking/ an Open University Mathematics degree, and had
my own self/book taught software engineering experience. Just mentioning
that you are currently doing the degree is damned near as good as having
completed it.

The networking aspect of college life is covered through OU tutor groups
- and you're generally with people of all ages who know the score and
are intelligent enough to learn in this way, rather than a bunch of
terrible upstart students being spoon-fed through a course.

 

[loufoque]

One aspect of college is networking yourself.
When I either speak or go to conferences, I often find
one of the most education aspects is not the courseware
at all, but the discussions and gathering that happen
over lunch or dinner or a beer. View college the same way.
Get to know the professors. Ask for an additional account
to study on your own. Finish each assignment on time,
but then do another version where you add something to it
and bounce that off your teacher. Join the school's ACM student
chapter, and if they don't have one, you start it. Set
yourself up as the volunteer in a student help desk for their
programming questions. Try to get your dept head to establish
a lecture series once a week or so with outside invited speakers.

Isn't that the kind of stuff you do after you're a grad student, not to
say after a master's degree?

 

[Greg Comeau]

Isn't that the kind of stuff you do after you're a grad student, not to
say after a master's degree?

I'm not sure what you mean.

 

[Eric]

That analogy only holds if someone else is paying for your education.

That statement only holds if you remove the layer of abstraction allowed
by analogy.

I am saying education has worth. Gold has worth. Neither come for free,
either monetarily or in personal effort. This does not rob them of worth.

 

[Noah Roberts]

Also, you mentioned that "the benfits to not finishing
college and just learning myself a[re] overwhelming".
But another way to look at this is that the two are not
mutually exclusive but complementary.

Yep. Everything I learned at college I taught myself.

 

[Daniel T.]

I am saying education has worth. Gold has worth. Neither come for free,
either monetarily or in personal effort. This does not rob them of worth.

Yes of course. The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the
OP wants to know.

If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.

 

[Victor Bazarov]

[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what
the OP wants to know.

If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.

That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive. Besides, it is
not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For some it could
be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially. It is all of
course relative, as well.

The problem with discussions of this kind (IMNSHO) is that we often
give examples of an average person's result from an average school
attended during an average year in comparison with an average HS
graduate doing average studying at an average home using average
sources of information, and all of it based on being hired by some
average company looking to find an average good programmer... How
in hell does it apply to the real life? In most cases it doesn't.
There is no average HS graduate, there is no average university, or
even an average company looking for an average good programmer.

V

 

[Noah Roberts]

The problem with discussions of this kind (IMNSHO) is that we often
give examples of an average person's result from an average school
attended during an average year in comparison with an average HS
graduate doing average studying at an average home using average
sources of information, and all of it based on being hired by some
average company looking to find an average good programmer... How
in hell does it apply to the real life? In most cases it doesn't.
There is no average HS graduate, there is no average university, or
even an average company looking for an average good programmer.

Actually, I just use my own experiences and assume everyone else is the
same way.

 

[Greg Comeau]

Yes of course. The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the
OP wants to know.

If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.

Hmm. The answer to both is maybe. IMO there is too many
variables involved for such black and whiteness.

 

[loufoque]

I'm not sure what you mean.

Usually people aren't close with the professors before they start
thesises and the like.

 

[Greg Comeau]

[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what
the OP wants to know.

If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If the
goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.

That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive. Besides, it is
not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For some it could
be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially. It is all of
course relative, as well.

I mostly agree. Having been on both sides of the fence
(student and teacher) it is clear to me that some people
just have it and some people just don't, but there is still
a lot to be said for the masses in the middle. And notwithstanding
that, folks learn differently, at different paces, have different
priorities, etc.

 

[Greg Comeau]

Actually, I just use my own experiences and assume everyone else is the
same way.

But that's exactly Victor's point, we're all not in the same way.
And few of us even get to experience or tap in too strongly to
the other ways. That means what works best for Mr. X might not
for Mr. Y, and so forth.

 

[Noah Roberts]

But that's exactly Victor's point, we're all not in the same way.
And few of us even get to experience or tap in too strongly to
the other ways. That means what works best for Mr. X might not
for Mr. Y, and so forth.

Oh come now...you can't actually believe that.

 

[Greg Comeau]

Oh come now...you can't actually believe that.

I believe what I wrote. So either it is incomplete (if so say why)
or we are talking about two different things (so elaborate your
argument and counterargument further).

 

[Noah Roberts]

I believe what I wrote. So either it is incomplete (if so say why)
or we are talking about two different things (so elaborate your
argument and counterargument further).

rofl.

 

[Greg Comeau]

rofl.

"He held his head high
And he threw out his chest
And he looked at the hunters
As much as to say:
'Shoot if you must
But I won't run away!
I mean what I said
And I said what I meant....
An elephant's faithful
One hundred per cent!"
-- Dr. Seuss, "Horton Hatches The Egg"

 

[Daniel T.]

Daniel T. wrote:

[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to university
(both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's what the OP
wants to know.

If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.

That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.

Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had a
degree.

Besides, it is not irrelevant _who_ is going to the university. For
some it could be just a waste of time. Others gain substantially.
It is all of course relative, as well.

Yes, but in my opinion, someone who can't learn it on their own isn't as
valuable despite the "substantial gain".