Daniel said:
Victor Bazarov said:
Daniel said:
Daniel T. wrote:
[..] The question though is whether the cost of going to
university (both in time and money) is worth the reward. That's
what the OP wants to know.
If the goal is to become a good programmer, the answer is no. If
the goal is to get a good programming job, then answer is yes.
That's a strange way of looking at things, implying that those two
things are totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive.
Not totally, but largely. I've seen plenty of poor programers and
designers who none-the-less got decent jobs simply because they had
a degree.
That makes no sense by itself.
Simply put: an instance of a poor programmer getting hired because
of a degree is in no way a proof that having a degree is more
important when it comes to being hired.
Look, once we take into account that HR generally gets hundreds of
applicants per position, we can see that most of these applicants
won't even make it to the interview/testing stage, so actual skill at
programming isn't even an issue. Thus, programming skill and ability
to get the job have less to do with each-other, than one's "resume
hot-spots" (like a college degree.)
For some reason we switched to arguing the point that having a degree
is better for being hired than not having one. Look at the top. You
started with "the cost is worth the reward" argument. I insist that
getting a degree is the single most important action one can take on
the way to *becoming a good programmer*. You, for whatever reason,
think that "the reward" of becoming a good programmer it's not worth
the cost of obtaining a degree. Too bad. I can only imagine that
your experience (or the experience of those with whom you discussed
this topic before) either was negative or was not prominent enough to
leave a lasting impression (or it was shadowed by other impressions).
Here is what not "totally orthogonal or mutually exclusive" means to
me. Since IMNSHO going to a college and obtaining an advanced (by
some measures) degree is just as important in becoming a good whatever
as getting one's career started, you cannot simply separate one from
the other. If one obtains a degree, one will become a good programmer
sooner than if one doesn't (with all nods towards "everybody learns
and develops differently" argument). If one does become a good (use
the term "better" if it's easier to understand) programmer, one has
more chance of getting hired than one with a degree but without
being a good programmer. Having a degree by itself doesn't really
do much, one still needs to work on becoming a good programmer. I
am convinced that no matter how good one is (and can become a good
programmer without outside help (although see my other argument about
"outside help")), the same person would benefit greatly by going to
school, and would become an even better programmer and get himself
(herself) an even greater chance at a good career. That's why it
is incorrect to put "if the goal is learning" on one side and "if
the goal is getting a job" on the _opposite_ side.
The only time I would even consider discussing those things as
opposites is when a career already exists and is not of professional
programming type, and learning to program is viewed as an improvement
in it. At that time going to college might be too much trouble since
in many cases it would mean interruption in the career, which is
never good. But we are not talking about it here, are we?
V
