Developers: "Simplify Eclipse or else..."

[Ramon F Herrera]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

 

[Jeff Higgins]

My editor is better than yours.

 

[Mark Space]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

NetBeans is indeed pretty rockin'. On the other hand, I think
competition between the two keeps them both feature rich and and
responsive to developers needs, so I hope they both stick around.

Sun has recently announced "Innovators Grants" for NetBeans development.
Sun is offering up to approximately $170,000 for NetBeans modules,
plugins and other features. Sun is also offering bounties up of to $500
for exceptional blogs about new NetBeans features. Now that's what I
call putting your money where your mouth is.

<http://www.netbeans.org/grant/>
<http://www.netbeans.org/competition/blog-contest.html?cid=923686>

I hope someone (IBM?) does something similar for Eclipse. Development
costs money, it shouldn't be regarded as a free ride for the companies
who profit from it.

It would be interesting, to me, to develop modules that could be used in
common between the two. Anything to drive more commonality and
flexibility in development would be a good thing in my opinion.

 

[Jason Cavett]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

I don't know your posting history, so I can't decide if you're just
trolling. But, I personally have had only good experiences with
Eclipse - especially since 3.0. It makes a lot of sense to me and I
actually find it easy to use. However, I do realize no tool is ever
perfect. The links from your article were interesting given what
features people are looking for.

...it'll be interesting to see what develops. Competition never hurt
anybody and can only help the end users.

 

[toolassembler]

Ramon F Herrera wrote:

My editor is better than yours.

I prefer Eclipse but I make sure that all my projects run properly in
NetBeans as well.

I even keep open both IDEs on the same source code (you have to make
sure to make all modifications from the Eclipse side).

For some kinds of projects (OpenOffice) you have to use NetBeans and
the OOo plugin, because the Eclipse plugin is very poor.

I did lose my Eclipse XML editor: one day it just stopped working. It
seems that I am not the only victim of the plugin maze.

-Ramon

 

[toolassembler]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

NetBeans is indeed pretty rockin'. On the other hand, I think
competition between the two keeps them both feature rich and and
responsive to developers needs, so I hope they both stick around.

Sun has recently announced "Innovators Grants" for NetBeans development.
Sun is offering up to approximately $170,000 for NetBeans modules,
plugins and other features. Sun is also offering bounties up of to $500
for exceptional blogs about new NetBeans features. Now that's what I
call putting your money where your mouth is.

<http://www.netbeans.org/grant/>
<http://www.netbeans.org/competition/blog-contest.html?cid=923686>

I hope someone (IBM?) does something similar for Eclipse. Development
costs money, it shouldn't be regarded as a free ride for the companies
who profit from it.

It would be interesting, to me, to develop modules that could be used in
common between the two. Anything to drive more commonality and
flexibility in development would be a good thing in my opinion.

A while back, I predicted that NB was on its way to extinction, and
even called for the NB crowd to contribute to Eclipse.

I hereby withdraw my prediction...

-Ramon

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

Ramon F Herrera wrote:

My editor is better than yours.

I prefer Eclipse but I make sure that all my projects run properly in
NetBeans as well.

I even keep open both IDEs on the same source code (you have to make
sure to make all modifications from the Eclipse side).

For some kinds of projects (OpenOffice) you have to use NetBeans and
the OOo plugin, because the Eclipse plugin is very poor.

I did lose my Eclipse XML editor: one day it just stopped working. It
seems that I am not the only victim of the plugin maze.

-Ramon

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

NetBeans is indeed pretty rockin'. On the other hand, I think
competition between the two keeps them both feature rich and and
responsive to developers needs, so I hope they both stick around.

Sun has recently announced "Innovators Grants" for NetBeans development.
Sun is offering up to approximately $170,000 for NetBeans modules,
plugins and other features. Sun is also offering bounties up of to $500
for exceptional blogs about new NetBeans features. Now that's what I
call putting your money where your mouth is.

<http://www.netbeans.org/grant/>
<http://www.netbeans.org/competition/blog-contest.html?cid=923686>

I hope someone (IBM?) does something similar for Eclipse. Development
costs money, it shouldn't be regarded as a free ride for the companies
who profit from it.

It would be interesting, to me, to develop modules that could be used in
common between the two. Anything to drive more commonality and
flexibility in development would be a good thing in my opinion.

A while back, I predicted that NB was on its way to extinction, and
even called for the NB crowd to contribute to Eclipse.

I hereby withdraw my prediction...

-Ramon

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

-RFH

I don't know your posting history, so I can't decide if you're just
trolling.

You are obviously talking to Phil Manchester, the author of the
article, correct?

You should write to him directly, as I doubt he follows this NG.

-Ramon

 

[Mark Space]

I don't know your posting history, so I can't decide if you're just
trolling. But, I personally have had only good experiences with

From the link Ramon provided:


"The debate over the future of Eclipse spilled into the public domain at
the recent EclipseCon when project leaders were forced to defend what
was seen by some as a move by IBM to dominate work on version 4.0, or
e4. Since then, Eclipse Foundation chief Mike Milinkovich has publicly
emphasised the importance of involving the wider developer community in
creating the specifications for e4.

"Early project committers outlined their goals for e4 at EclipseCon as
including simplifying the "baroque" code base, better separation between
the interface and data layers, and changes to scripting and Java support."


That doesn't sound like a troll by just on person to me.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

From the link Ramon provided:

"The debate over the future of Eclipse spilled into the public domain at
the recent EclipseCon when project leaders were forced to defend what
was seen by some as a move by IBM to dominate work on version 4.0, or
e4. Since then, Eclipse Foundation chief Mike Milinkovich has publicly
emphasised the importance of involving the wider developer community in
creating the specifications for e4.

"Early project committers outlined their goals for e4 at EclipseCon as
including simplifying the "baroque" code base, better separation between
the interface and data layers, and changes to scripting and Java support."

That doesn't sound like a troll by just on person to me.

It does not sound as if Eclipse has a problem either.

It sounds as a normal discussion about new features and
necessary refactoring of old features in a new major release.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

Early calls to simplify Eclipse
By Phil Manchester
Do it or lose it to NetBeans

"Improved usability and integration with other integrated development
environments are the first features being called for in response to a
request for feedback on the future Eclipse."

[...]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

You can be sure that Eclipse will live fine for many years no
matter what they do for 4.x.

But Eclipse + available plugins has almost exploded in size. They
do have good reason to try and see if they structure things better
to make it easier to use also for those that are not full time
Java IDE users.

Arne

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

It's no different from picking up code changes made by a colleague.
Surely you don't depend on your colleagues also using Eclipse?

If you do, then your project process is very badly broken.

There are a lot of companies where it is expected that source
control contains a project file for the IDE that is mandated
within the company.

Arne

 

[Mark Space]

But Eclipse + available plugins has almost exploded in size. They
do have good reason to try and see if they structure things better
to make it easier to use also for those that are not full time
Java IDE users.

While I agree that refactoring is always a welcome step, on the NetBeans
side of things, I just download the "all plugins, all environments"
option and go. Hard drive space is cheap, my time isn't.

I haven't tried Eclipse so I don't know how things are for that IDE, but
an explosion in memory footprint or HD space does not alone indicate a
broken product.

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

While I agree that refactoring is always a welcome step, on the NetBeans
side of things, I just download the "all plugins, all environments"
option and go. Hard drive space is cheap, my time isn't.

I haven't tried Eclipse so I don't know how things are for that IDE, but
an explosion in memory footprint or HD space does not alone indicate a
broken product.

Disk space and memory are not the biggest problems.

Getting all plugins for Eclipse would be horrible.

I tend to have:
- one copy for Java and Java EE
- one copy for C/C++
- one copy for the dynamic languages (PHP, Perl, Ruby, Python)
- one copy for each special purpose I am playing with for the time
[source code analysis, C#, Fortran or whatever]

The menus has become rather big. I have a little hello world
piece of code.

If I right click in Eclipse I get 24 menu items of which 13 has
submenus.

In NetBeans I get 15 menu items of which 5 has submenus.

(and I only think 1 of my menu items in Eclipse comes from a
plugin)

Actually I am fine with the 24/13. But I am not sure that everyone
is. And I would not be happy if they made it 48/26 or made it 3 level
in version 4.

They can not keep adding features without some restructuring.

Arne

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

Gee, Ramon, your post is exactly identical to toolassembler's post a few
minutes earlier.

I posted it from the wrong account...

-RFH

 

[Ramon F Herrera]

I even keep open both IDEs on the same source code (you have to make
sure to make all modifications from the Eclipse side).

No, you don't. I've used both on the same project many a time, and it's
perfectly feasible to modify from any IDE and then edit in Eclipse [...]

I am talking about real-time changes, Lew. Eclipse keeps track of
modifications to the source code and reacts to them. NB doesn't care
that somebody else is modifying it concurrently.

-Ramon

 

[Arne Vajhøj]

I even keep open both IDEs on the same source code (you have to make
sure to make all modifications from the Eclipse side).

No, you don't. I've used both on the same project many a time, and it's
perfectly feasible to modify from any IDE and then edit in Eclipse [...]

I am talking about real-time changes, Lew. Eclipse keeps track of
modifications to the source code and reacts to them. NB doesn't care
that somebody else is modifying it concurrently.

But it would be madness to have two IDE'es directly access the same
files. Things would get overwritten all the time.

You use:

IDE 1---------source control-----------IDE 2

Arne

 

[Hendrik Maryns]

Lew schreef:

I even keep open both IDEs on the same source code (you have to make
sure to make all modifications from the Eclipse side).
No, you don't. I've used both on the same project many a time, and it's
perfectly feasible to modify from any IDE and then edit in Eclipse [...]

I am talking about real-time changes, Lew. Eclipse keeps track of
modifications to the source code and reacts to them. NB doesn't care
that somebody else is modifying it concurrently.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean.

I do know that if I'm editing a file in NetBeans and someone else
modifies it (which itself represents a breakdown in the process, btw),
that NB tells me of the change and lets me refresh my editor session.

I do not know of this feature of Eclipse of which you speak. In fact,
my experience is the opposite - Eclipse seems not to notice changes on
the file system until I manually refresh my project.

Eclipse also has an auto-refresh option, but it is disabled by default:
Window → Preferences → General → Workspace → Automatically refresh.

H.
--
Hendrik Maryns
http://tcl.sfs.uni-tuebingen.de/~hendrik/
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[thufir]

http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2008/03/31/eclpse_e4_feature_requests/

http://www.bcit.ca/study/outlines/comp2611200830 went to NetBeans, which
is ok with me. They made a big deal out of it.


-Thufir