frame and space

X

xxx

Hey, Im trying to make a webpage using frames, here is the main setup

<HTML>
<head>
<title>Untitled Document</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css">
</head>
<FRAMESET COLS="*,640,*" SCROLLING=no Frameborder="0" Framespacing="0"
Border="0">
<FRAME NAME="leftFrame" SRC="leftFrame.htm" NORESIZE>
<FRAMESET ROWS="100,*,60" SCROLLING=no Frameborder="1" >
<FRAME NAME="Top" SRC="topFrame.htm" NORESIZE>
<FRAME NAME="Main" SRC="main.htm" NORESIZE>
<FRAME NAME="Botton" SRC="bottomFrame.htm" NORESIZE>
</FRAMESET>
<frame NAME="rightFrame" src="rightFrame.htm" NORESIZE>
</FRAMESET>
<noframes>
</noframes>
</html>

This seems to work ok.
Then I've made this rather small botton page that looks like this :
<html>
<head>
<title>Untitled Document</title>
<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css">
</head><body bgcolor="#FFFFFF" text="#000000">
<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0">
<tr>
<td>
<div align="center">Updated by xxx 4 September 2003</div>
</td>
</tr>
</table>
</body>
</html>


The problem is, despite setting the table width=100% the table in the
bottonFrame doesnt cover the whole frame, there is rather big-ish space
around the table inside that frame. Why is this ? How can I remove this ?
 
T

Toby A Inkster

xxx said:
Hey, Im trying to make a webpage using frames:

You probably shouldn't be.
<link rel="stylesheet" href="style.css" type="text/css">

A stylesheet? On a frameset page? What are you trying to achieve?
<noframes>
</noframes>

Fix this.
The problem is, despite setting the table width=100% the table in the
bottonFrame doesnt cover the whole frame, there is rather big-ish space
around the table inside that frame. Why is this ? How can I remove this ?

That body's default padding. Set:

body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

in your style sheet.
 
X

xxx

Hey, Im trying to make a webpage using frames:
You probably shouldn't be.


A stylesheet? On a frameset page? What are you trying to achieve?


Fix this.
Done.
?

That body's default padding. Set:

body {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}

I've added the above into my style sheet. Now the table is left-handed
aligned, there is still some left-over space on the right handside. Anything
else I can do ? Please let me know if you need to see some more code.
 
N

Nico Schuyt

xxx said:
Hey, Im trying to make a webpage using frames, here is the main setup
<Coding>
This seems to work ok.
Then I've made this rather small botton page that looks like this :
<Coding>
The problem is, despite setting the table width=100% the table in the
bottonFrame doesnt cover the whole frame, there is rather big-ish
space around the table inside that frame. Why is this ? How can I
remove this ?

It's very unpractical to submit the coding and make us create the pages.
Just point to a URL.
Did you try: body {margin:0} ?
And ehh, did you notice what happens if you open the bottom page in your
browser? Those orphaned pages without menu and content are only one of the
serious problems with frames.
Nico
 
E

EightNineThree

Phrederik said:
Why?

P.s. I'm not asking to find out, I'm asking because telling someone not to
do something doesn't help.


Why Frames Are Bad
The Issue:
As a frequent participant in a variety of different newsgroups relating to
HTML and web design, there are frequent postings placed by people looking
for assistance with their frames-based layouts. Frames are, in a word, bad.
Particular concerns addressed in this article are that they are harmful to
usability and search engine placement.

Introduced by Netscape in 1996, frames were introduced as a (seemingly)
creative solution to a common concern. When a user scrolls a page to view
more content, the navigational items are taken out of view as well. The
solution? Separate the content from the navigation so that the navigation is
always visible and usable for the visitor.

Frames are, in a lot of ways, the wrong solution to the right problem. In
fact, the problems inherent in frames are so many that Netscape itself
dumped the frames-based layout of their own website in less than six months.

The major problems with frames are as follows:
1. Frames make it difficult for users to bookmark a page.
When someone wants to bookmark a specific page of your site, they cannot.
The best they can do is bookmark the front page. This means that they have
to go through the whole site again to find what they wanted to bookmark and
return to in the first place. I am of the opinion that my site is meant to
empower people with information. If they are looking for something specific
(and want to return to it for later reference) then by all means, I should
enable that, not interfere with it. With a frames-based website, the only
address the user can bookmark is the address of the front page/ frameset.

2. The myth of shared navigation
Frames have often been seen as a way to ease the expansion of the site by
making it possible to have pages of just content. Want to add a page to the
site? Create some content, create the link to it in the navigational frame
and you are done! This is an altogether bad reason to use frames,
considering its other inherent evils. This same goal can be accomplished
with Server Side Includes or PHP's Include() function. (more info on my
followup article)

3. Frames create difficulties with "intuitive" navigation.
Sites with large amounts of content will feel this effect worse than small
sites, but it is a concern nonetheless. Effective navigation will provide
the user with clues as to where they are, where they have been, and where
they are heading on the site. This clue comes from visual cues provided by
the links themselves as well as by displaying the address in the address
field. When the navigation is controlled by a separate, static document, it
is impossible to effectively provide either of these clues to the user.

4. Frames are less likely to be crawled effectively by search engines.
The major search engines look for content. Framed sites often have no
content on the page that is most likely to be first-crawled by the
searchbot.

5. Lost search engine referrals.
If a site does happen to be crawled, the visitor gets lead to a page that is
likely lacking in primary navigation and is likely to get lost or lead up a
dead end because that page does not have any navigational items. Common
"solutions" devised for this problem is to use JavaScript to force the page
into its frameset. This is problematic because the visitor may have
JavaScript turned off and, most importantly, this is an attempt to fix a
problem that should not exist in the first place.

6. Frames often needlessly eat up valuable screen real estate.
Sometimes designers of frames sites will create framesets that occupy a
large amount of screen space in either a misguided attempt at cross-platform
design or in an attempt to ensure that certain content is always in front of
the visitor.

In terms of "cross-platform" design, the use of frames is an entirely wrong
approach and often can result in terrible results. A great case-in-point
would be a top-bottom frame setup with the top frame being 150 pixels in
height for navigation buttons, and the rest of the screen being for content.
On my computer, that looks great. But I am using 1400x1050 resolution.
Imagine though, that we're viewing a site at 1024x768. After we take into
consideration the real estate eaten by the browser interface and the windows
taskbar, we are left with 600 pixels of total screen height. Now the
navigational frame is eating up 25% of the screen.

Things can only go downhill from there. Studies show that the majority of
users on the Internet are using 800x600 resolution. At that total screen
size, the viewable screen area of the page is 420 pixels. With the 150 pixel
navigational frame taking up a whopping 36% of the screen, we are left with
only 270 pixels to view content. Things get frightening after that. At
640x480 and/ or WebTV, that top frame is eating up 50%+ of screen space!

Common responses may be to say "Well then, what about a side-by-side frame?"
But this is easily the same issue, no matter whether the frames are
horizontal or vertical, and the more frames, the worse the problem gets.
Imagine what can happen when the site has a top-middle-bottom frames setup
with 100 pixels up top for navigation, a 100-pixel bottom for contact info
or banner ads. This leaves 100 pixels for content - 33% - on 640x480
(maximized) because this resolution only has 300 pixels in height for
viewable browser area after all is said and done. (see a picture of a
particularly frightening frameset to demonstrate how bad this can get.
Warning: really big picture)

7. Framed sites are a hindrance for handicapped users.
Users with visually-based handicaps often use software to assist them in
browsing the web. This software scans the content of a page and reads the
text and elements out loud to the user. When approached with a frames based
website, the software is unable to find any content on the actual URL that
it is trying to read, as that is the frameset and it does not generally
contain any content.

While the Section 508 Guidelines do not directly discuss the evils of
frames, webmasters of sites for government agencies and those who are bound
by contracts requiring adherence to the guidelines will often simply avoid
the use of frames altogether in favor of general accessibility and ease of
use.

Frames are not the answer
Frames were designed to help solve a problem, but they ultimately just
create more problems. I am of the opinion that they should be used very
sparingly, if at all, and that the creator of the frames-based-layout must
ensure that they are aware of the above problems. They are often used by
designers who are ignorant of these problems and who, in all reality, are
not designing sites with the kind of complex navigational structure that
they were designed to compensate for in the first place. Ultimately,
designers contemplating frames should reassess their navigational structure
and the reasons they are looking into frames in the first place. Chances
are, the site can be designed to be more accessible, more cross-platform
compatible, and easier to navigate without frames than with.
 
M

Michael Weber

[Sat, 6 Sep 2003 17:09:54 +0200/xxx]
The problem is, despite setting the table width=100% the table in the
bottonFrame doesnt cover the whole frame, there is rather big-ish space
around the table inside that frame. Why is this ? How can I remove this ?

You need to add this invalid "topmargin=0 leftmargin=0
marginheight=0 marginwidth=0" attribs (no matter if you already set
the margin via css) to each of your body-tags.


Another, valid way is

<body><div style="position:absolute;top:47%;left:47%;">
blabla</div></body>

Tune top & left to center it.

regs
michael
 
A

andy johnson

Tobys a dope, use frames if you need them

Hoping to stop a flame war here, there are valid reasons for not using
frames. Before you decide you can't live without them, do a Google
search on "frames for layout" and think about the ideas presented.
Using a "less obsolete" way of presenting your web site to the world
WILL gain you better SE ranking, easier maintenance and a more
professional looking product. When frames are no longer supported,
which I understand is happening, you will already be comfortable with
CSS and be very happy you abandoned them
..
-
Andy

"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)
 
N

Nico Schuyt

andy said:
Using a "less obsolete" way of presenting your web site to the world
WILL gain you better SE ranking,

Getting a decent backward link from a site with a ranking >4 is far more
important.
easier maintenance

I doubt that. I used to build framed sites. No problems in maintenance.
and a more professional looking product.

I have a lot of problems convincing some customers that a framed site is not
professional (looking).
In fact it isn't. Look at http://www.raph.nl/test/ . Looks like a framed
site doesn't it? Very professional though.
When frames are no longer supported,
which I understand is happening ....

Interesting. Consequences are enormously. About 40% of the sites are using
frames (ehhh, estimation :)
Where did you find that information??

Regards, Nico
 
A

andy johnson

I have a lot of problems convincing some customers that a framed site is not
professional (looking).
In fact it isn't. Look at http://www.raph.nl/test/ . Looks like a framed
site doesn't it? Very professional though.


Interesting. Consequences are enormously. About 40% of the sites are using
frames (ehhh, estimation :)
Where did you find that information??

Regards, Nico
I read more than I can remember, but the messages on W3C's forums
sound familiar. 40% sounds wide of the actual number. My guess is more
like 5%. That's frames, not iframes. The SE ranking issue I was
referring to has to do with the SE seeing your content and not listing
you as "your browser does not support frames" . As near as I can tell,
anything you can do with frames, you can do with CSS, or maybe
CSS/iframes anyway. Considering I know probably less than 1% of what
any one of you know, I'll defer to your opinion on that matter.
-
Andy

"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)
 
N

Nico Schuyt

I read more than I can remember, but the messages on W3C's forums
sound familiar. 40% sounds wide of the actual number. My guess is more
like 5%.

Given the fact that about every newbie uses frames it *must* be more.
That's frames, not iframes.

Iframes are even worse than frames
The SE ranking issue I was
referring to has to do with the SE seeing your content and not listing
you as "your browser does not support frames" .

Two possiblities: Repeat important content and links in the noframe section.
Or remove the whole noframe part.
As near as I can tell,
anything you can do with frames, you can do with CSS, or maybe
CSS/iframes anyway.

I'm not so sure. There are at least two reasons to use frames:
- For a gallery (thumbnails left; enlarged pictures right)
- To add content for a search engine on a (splash) page that has only a
Flash animation
Considering I know probably less than 1% of what
any one of you know, I'll defer to your opinion on that matter.

Ah well, I'm just a newbie myself, two years ago I hadn't even heard of HTML
:)

Cheers, Nico
 
I

Isofarro

Nico said:
Two possiblities: Repeat important content and links in the noframe
section.

Duplication of content and links. That would be a maintenance overhead.

Or remove the whole noframe part.

Reduce usability in an effort to lower maintenance overhead - sounds like a
compromise that makes frames worse than a proper solution.

I'm not so sure. There are at least two reasons to use frames:
- For a gallery (thumbnails left; enlarged pictures right)

Brucies butterfly demonstration proves frames are not necessary at all
there.
- To add content for a search engine on a (splash) page that has only a
Flash animation

Solving one accessibility problem (Flash) by introducing another (frames)
isn't what I'd call optimal.
 
N

Nico Schuyt

Duplication of content and links. That would be a maintenance
overhead.

Most of the content and links can be static. A short description and some
keywords will do.
Reduce usability in an effort to lower maintenance overhead - sounds
like a compromise that makes frames worse than a proper solution.

Not my experience. I had a site (www.michellippens.nl) in frames for a
couple of years that had high ranking in SE's. I think that a search engine
like Google is forced to search the site itself when there's no noframe
section. OK, there is a problem in UA's that don't support frames but who
cares for a photo album.
Brucies butterfly demonstration proves frames are not necessary at all
there.

You mean the http://usenet.alt-html.org/brucies/butterflies/ ?
Ehh, he removed it.
Like I wrote then it is (was?) technically very nice but way too complex for
most people.
Also the performance was not so good as a frame solution
Solving one accessibility problem (Flash) by introducing another
(frames) isn't what I'd call optimal.

Neither do I. Some customers however *insist* to have such animations.
What do you do, refuse the job?

Cheers, Nico
 
I

Isofarro

Nico said:
Most of the content and links can be static.

Most, but not all. It is still an increase in overhead, especially when new
links and content needed to be added in two separate places.
Not my experience. I had a site (www.michellippens.nl) in frames for a
couple of years that had high ranking in SE's.

Search engines are not the only visitor that needs good noframes content.

Neither do I. Some customers however *insist* to have such animations.
What do you do, refuse the job?

No, do a solution that is _accessible_.
 
N

Nico Schuyt

No, do a solution that is _accessible_.

You're right of course. But what is a better approach to make such a page
accessible *and* achieve a good ranking??
Regards, Nico
 
I

Isofarro

Nico said:
You're right of course. But what is a better approach to make such a page
accessible *and* achieve a good ranking??

Depends on the full requirements.
 
W

Whitecrest

Solving one accessibility problem (Flash) by introducing another (frames)
isn't what I'd call optimal.

Iso, can a company cater to a particular groups of people? For example,
a running shoe store can cater to runners, Kayakers don't go there to
buy oars because they know there is nothing for them in that store. And
a runner goes there because they know there is something there they
like. Companies cater to particular groups all the time. It is legal,
profitable, and moral.

Why is this different than running a web site that caters to broadband
flash users and lovers? (And it has nothing to do with 508 because
Flash is 100% 508 compliant) There is no difference in catering to
runners or catering to flash users. You know there is a very large
group of customers out there that get turned on by Flash and javascript
and fancy dynamic javascript based menus.

Why do you think it is right to force them to not have these things if
that is what they want? Why shouldn't I be able to go to a web site and
see flash? Why can't I go to a web site and see embed video? What
gives you the right to tell me I can not see pages like that? Why do
you want to tell 10's of millions of people that they should not be able
to go to a web site that uses these things, just because you don't like
it?

If the web is truly for everyone, then it is for the Flash lovers, and
DHTML fans, and broadband downloading fans too. As small a niche as you
think that is, you still admit it is a niche, which means there is a
need, and that means someone needs to fill it.

Is flash for everyone and every page, No. But are there millions (10's
of millions maybe 100's of millions?) of people out there that enjoy it?
There sure are. And sorry, I believe telling them they can not see it,
is infringing on their rights. Especially if you say the web is for
everyone.
 

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