frame and space

[Whitecrest]

Hoping to stop a flame war here...

No flame war here. Toby and I just disagree on the use of frames and a
few other things. Rather than rehash the entire argument we just
finished, I just called him a dope and he said my computer smells.

All quite friendly actually.

there are valid reasons for not using
frames. Before you decide you can't live without them, do a Google
search on "frames for layout" and think about the ideas presented....

I have been creating web sites since the days of Genie, and I still
believe there is a pace for frames.

Just depends on how you feel about it.

Using a "less obsolete" way of presenting...

True I could make the entire thing in flash,then I have complete control
over what you see. Good point.

your web site to the world
WILL gain you better SE ranking, easier maintenance and a more
professional looking product. When frames are no longer supported,
which I understand is happening, you will already be comfortable with
CSS and be very happy you abandoned them

Many companies don't care about search engine placement. Very few
people search google for a dark carbonated drink based on the cola nut.
They usually just type www.pepsi.com or www.coke.com. Where they stand
in the search engine is irrelevant. And I am more than comfortable with
CSS, and I still say there are valid uses for frames. The two are not
mutually exclusive.

 

[kchayka]

Why is this different than running a web site that caters to broadband
flash users and lovers? (And it has nothing to do with 508 because
Flash is 100% 508 compliant) There is no difference in catering to
runners or catering to flash users. You know there is a very large
group of customers out there that get turned on by Flash and javascript
and fancy dynamic javascript based menus.

There is nothing inherently wrong with using any web technology. The
issues are with using them wisely. Sadly, they often aren't.

BTW, I have yet to see a Flash site that was usable for me. Must be a
law somewhere that says Flash deezyners shall use 4pt font sizes or
their monitor will explode or something. If Flash's zoom feature didn't
suck so badly, it's possible some of these sites might become usable,
but I guess that's asking a bit too much.

 

[Els]

You mean the http://usenet.alt-html.org/brucies/butterflies/ ?
Ehh, he removed it.
Like I wrote then it is (was?) technically very nice but way too complex for
most people.
Also the performance was not so good as a frame solution

I guess he put it back up, 'cause I click the link and see
butterflies..

 

[Nico Schuyt]

Depends on the full requirements.

OK (example http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/remkaflex/; Draft; I didn't yet apply
the frame to the splash page):
- The site *must* start with a Flash animation
- Rest of the pages in plain HTML/CSS
- Site must have high ranking on a number of keywords in Google
Represented in the pages but also in the start page.
- Site should be accessible*
* Given the nature of the site (wholesaler of brake cables), browsers like
IE, Mozilla and Opera will do.

Regards, Nico

 

[Nico Schuyt]

BTW, I have yet to see a Flash site that was usable for me. Must be a
law somewhere that says Flash deezyners shall use 4pt font sizes or
their monitor will explode or something. If Flash's zoom feature
didn't suck so badly, it's possible some of these sites might become
usable, but I guess that's asking a bit too much.

At least for me, the discussion is not about a full Flash site. It's the
situation that a site must (customer demand) start with a Flash animation.
In general there is hardly any text in such a situation. If there is, it's
in a large font.
Example: http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/remkaflex/
What I'm looking for is:
a. Coding to detect if Flash is installed so I can switch to a non-Flash
page (I don't like start pages with "Choose ...")
b. A method to include keywords without being accused of spamming

Regards, Nico

 

[Nico Schuyt]

Many companies don't care about search engine placement. Very few
people search google for a dark carbonated drink based on the cola
nut. They usually just type www.pepsi.com or www.coke.com. Where
they stand in the search engine is irrelevant. ...

True. In addition:

Some companies don't want to be found by SE's because they offer information
that's not secret but they don't want to show it too easy to their
competitors.
Visitors find their site because the URL is submitted on paper.

A good backward link has more effect than a 'proper' designed site.

In case someone's selling a product like 10,000 others do it's (almost)
impossible to get the site in the first 10 of a search result. In that case
you can make a combination of advertisements in newspapers and submit
detailed information in the site.

Cheers, Nico

 

[Nico Schuyt]

I guess he put it back up, 'cause I click the link and see
butterflies..

I see. Beautiful isn't it?
But click on the link "View source" and tell me how many website builders
can create this (Except you and me of course
Cheers, Nico

 

[rf]

True. In addition:

Nico, isn't that coke site just what you wanted re detecting flash? It works
very well.

It appears they run some massive javascript to determine what platform they
are running on and then direct to a flash or non-flash page. Don't look at
www.coke.com , look at view-source:www.coke.com . Then have a look at
view-source:http://www.coke.com/js/detectVer.js . Neat stuff. I wouldn't
recommend stealing it from then though

I got suspicious when I found that if I immediately block ActiveX I got the
non-flash page. Allowing all ActiveX I get the flash page. Allow the first
ActiveX (the determining one I assume) and block the next one (yes, a nasty
thing for a viewer to do) and I get the flash version with an almost blank
page.

OTOH don't bother looking at the pepsi site. I did. Disable ActiveX or have
the wrong version of flash installed and you get this:

<quote>
You may not have everything you need to view the new Pepsi World site. We
require Flash 6.0 and above. Please click here to get the latest free Flash
player!
</quote>

Well I got what I wanted from it. A massive GO AWAY.

Good way to treat visititors. Standard lunatic use of flash or rather
non-use of proper fallback.

Reinforces my view of pepsi wherein if I am offered a rum and pepsi I will
walk down to the next pub where I can get a real rum and coke

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Nico Schuyt]

Nico, isn't that coke site just what you wanted re detecting flash?
It works very well.

It appears they run some massive javascript to determine what
platform they are running on and then direct to a flash or non-flash
page. Don't look at www.coke.com , look at view-source:www.coke.com .
Then have a look at view-source:http://www.coke.com/js/detectVer.js .
Neat stuff. I wouldn't recommend stealing it from then though

Hey, that's interesting stuff.
I'll have a look at it and let you know.
Thanks, Nico
Ehhh, no injuries this time on skying?

 

[Headless]

Reinforces my view of pepsi wherein if I am offered a rum and pepsi I will
walk down to the next pub where I can get a real rum and coke

http://www.cocacola.com/images/nojava.gif




Headless

 

[Els]

I see. Beautiful isn't it?
Yes!

But click on the link "View source" and tell me how many website builders
can create this (Except you and me of course

I wouldn't know, as I (contrary to your belief) am not one
of them ;-)

 

[rf]

http://www.cocacola.com/images/nojava.gif

<grin>

Rum and cola

</grin>

Cheers
Richard.

 

[rf]

rf wrote:

Hey, that's interesting stuff.
I'll have a look at it and let you know.
K

Thanks, Nico
Ehhh, no injuries this time on skying?

Yep. Wore my legs out. They made me stay an extra 4 days :-(

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Isofarro]

Iso, can a company cater to a particular groups of people? For example,
a running shoe store can cater to runners, Kayakers don't go there to
buy oars because they know there is nothing for them in that store.

Yet kayakers may go to this store to buy running shoes for running.

 

[Adrienne]

At least for me, the discussion is not about a full Flash site. It's
the situation that a site must (customer demand) start with a Flash
animation. In general there is hardly any text in such a situation. If
there is, it's in a large font.
Example: http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/remkaflex/
What I'm looking for is:
a. Coding to detect if Flash is installed so I can switch to a
non-Flash page (I don't like start pages with "Choose ...")
b. A method to include keywords without being accused of spamming

Regards, Nico

You can put content just before the closing </object> . For non-flash
users, the text will appear, which could have full content with relevant
keywords that would describe the movie, or an animated gif, or a picture,
or what have you.

http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT

I have a sample at http://www.intraproducts.com/joinus.asp

 

[Whitecrest]

Yet kayakers may go to this store to buy running shoes for running.

If someone that normally doesn't use flash wants to take advantage of
what I am offering at my site, then they have to use flash, or they can
choose not to, and they will go somewhere else. No brainer there.

But, if the company takes the total number of people that use flash (and
can see the site) PLUS the total number of people that decide to use
flash (because they want to see the site), and if that number of
visitors is greater than the number of visitors you need to sustain a
company and allow you for room to grow, then it is ok to do that. If it
isn't enough, then doing it would be a bad thing.

There are more than enough people out there that want it. Life is good

 

[Nico Schuyt]

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Nico Schuyt" writing

You can put content just before the closing </object> . For non-flash
users, the text will appear, which could have full content with
relevant keywords that would describe the movie, or an animated gif,
or a picture, or what have you.
http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/objects.html#edef-OBJECT
I have a sample at http://www.intraproducts.com/joinus.asp

Well, that sounds like *the* solution! (Must be that crystal ball
Just did a small test and it seems to work.
Any idea if such text will be indexed by SE's?
Thanks a lot so far!!!
Nico
BTW I still see half of the bottles (IE5.5; 800x600) :-(
http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/test/intraprodukts.jpg
After refresh the site seems to lose its markup:
http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/test/intraprodukts2.jpg

 

[Adrienne]

Well, that sounds like *the* solution! (Must be that crystal ball
Just did a small test and it seems to work.
Any idea if such text will be indexed by SE's?
Thanks a lot so far!!!
Nico

I figure if I turn on text mode in Opera, and Opera can see the text, then
a SE will, too. I just ran
http://www.intraproducts.com/flashpresentation.asp through the SE simulator
at http://www.searchengineworld.com/cgi-bin/sim_spider.cgi and it came up
with the text version as well.

BTW I still see half of the bottles (IE5.5; 800x600) :-(
http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/test/intraprodukts.jpg

It's intentional.

After refresh the site seems to lose its markup:
http://www.nicoschuyt.nl/test/intraprodukts2.jpg

That's interesting... that's only supposed to happen for Netscape <= 4 .
Actually, considering that I can see a little tiny bit of markup, it looks
to me like the page didn't fully load, therefore no css, etc. Hmm... I
can't reproduce that... maybe the server burped.

 

[Isofarro]

If someone that normally doesn't use flash wants to take advantage of
what I am offering at my site,

So you sell running shoes to runners, but they have to have a pair of
running shoes before they can enter your shop.

 

[Whitecrest]

So you sell running shoes to runners, but they have to have a pair of
running shoes before they can enter your shop.

It is too bad you can not accept the concept of targeting a particular
audience. Actually it is not too bad. Because of people that think like
you do, there are more jobs for people like me.