Front End

Discussion in 'ASP .Net' started by =?Utf-8?B?Q2hyaXMgRGF2b2xp?=, Sep 16, 2006.

  1. I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So far
    he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web pages
    in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its better
    to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to do
    the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend in
    VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build the
    system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.

    What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts his
    word, but not mine.

    --
    Chris Davoli
    =?Utf-8?B?Q2hyaXMgRGF2b2xp?=, Sep 16, 2006
    #1
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  2. Produce a very simple specification for maintaining a list of people + their
    contact information (2 tables) and then have both of you start at the same
    time. Presentation is unimportant, what is important is the functionality +
    how long it takes to develop. Then assess the results based on readability
    / how long it takes to develop etc.

    Sounds to me like one of you is going to leave for a new job :)
    Peter Morris [Droopy eyes software], Sep 16, 2006
    #2
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  3. Okay, so if I understand you correctly, your job is to design the
    application and create the application code. His job is to design and create
    the visual UI. So, once you have designed the business logic, you need to
    work with him on the design of the UI. Then he can create the UI HTML in any
    HTML editor, using placeholder HTML elements as "mock-ups" of the actual
    Controls. These elements will simply serve as a visual aid for composing the
    HTML of the page, and will be replaced later (by you). Once the HTML
    interface layout is complete, he hands over the HTML to you. You paste the
    HTML for each page into an ASPX page, replace the placeholder HTML with
    Server Controls, and wire up the page to your business logic.

    --
    HTH,

    Kevin Spencer
    Microsoft MVP
    Chicken Salad Surgery

    What You Seek Is What You Get.

    "Chris Davoli" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    > end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So
    > far
    > he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    > training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web
    > pages
    > in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its
    > better
    > to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    > most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    > stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    > would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to
    > do
    > the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend
    > in
    > VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    > boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build
    > the
    > system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.
    >
    > What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    > know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    > project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts
    > his
    > word, but not mine.
    >
    > --
    > Chris Davoli
    >
    Kevin Spencer, Sep 16, 2006
    #3
  4. So your trying to mix an old technology with the new one?!!! Thats strange.
    Why not just use the new. Its faster, better and easier. Classic ASP is very
    old, and microsoft decided to come out with a new easier platform that does
    more. That is why microsoft decided to go a different route and changed the
    platform completely. The advantages of .Net are enormous. All new classes are
    created in .Net. No new classes (for example GDI+, LDAP security, Server
    controls) are being created in classic ASP. None of these exist in classic
    asp. When .Net first came out it had over three thousand classes. No telling
    how many methods in these classes. And then there are properties. Of course
    ..Net replaced classic asp. The new model works more efficiently because it is
    compiled code. The classic ASP model is just VB script. And this VB script is
    exposed in the web site (for hackers to try and exploit), while the .Net
    model is compiled binary code. No source code gets published to the server.
    Also, the formatting of HTML is very easy. Everything is done in the
    codebehind on the backend. The server controls now generate the html. Its a
    lot easier. You don't have to do much HTML or javascript anymore, unless you
    want to.

    Of course you will be able to build faster in the new technology (assuming
    that you are both at the same level).

    Sounds like you have someone with a training issue. I can't imagine a web
    guy who doesn't want to learn!!! His manager should send him to class, and
    then after that if he doesn't know the new technology, there is a learning
    issue on his part and appropriate action needs to be taken by the manager
    to...


    "Chris Davoli" wrote:

    > I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    > end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So far
    > he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    > training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web pages
    > in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its better
    > to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    > most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    > stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    > would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to do
    > the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend in
    > VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    > boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build the
    > system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.
    >
    > What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    > know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    > project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts his
    > word, but not mine.
    >
    > --
    > Chris Davoli
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?TWljcm9zb2Z0IERldmVsb3Blcg==?=, Sep 16, 2006
    #4
  5. My guess is one of you will be leaving in the next six months.

    You really have to get this guy to at least be willing to drop the proper
    ..NET controls on the page as part of his design. While there is nothing
    wrong with creating a prototype in HTML, it is counter productive to lay an
    entire site out in HTML and then force the backend developer to redo the
    entire site, just so the HTML guy can feel like he was a success.

    If your boss does not want to listen, keep track of all of the hours you
    spend redoing work and then show him that. If he still does not listen,
    write up exactly what you did to save the project and send it to his boss.
    At the same time, put it in your resume and get a better job. :)

    Yes, designers and developers can co-exist, but it requires compromise ON
    BOTH SIDES. If this person is simply going to design, he should design and
    then NEVER touch the damn app again. If it needs tweaks, he will HAVE TO
    learn .NET.

    --
    Gregory A. Beamer
    MVP; MCP: +I, SE, SD, DBA

    *************************************************
    Think outside of the box!
    *************************************************
    "Chris Davoli" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    > end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So
    > far
    > he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    > training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web
    > pages
    > in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its
    > better
    > to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    > most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    > stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    > would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to
    > do
    > the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend
    > in
    > VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    > boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build
    > the
    > system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.
    >
    > What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    > know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    > project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts
    > his
    > word, but not mine.
    >
    > --
    > Chris Davoli
    >
    Cowboy \(Gregory A. Beamer\), Sep 16, 2006
    #5
  6. On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 06:55:02 -0700, Chris Davoli
    <> wrote:

    >I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    >end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So far
    >he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    >training him, he hasn't caught on.

    Perhaps you aren't a very good tutor. I only tease because it is
    probably not your job to train someone.

    >He is good on "prettying up" the web pages
    >in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its better
    >to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    >most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    >stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    >would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to do
    >the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend in
    >VB.Net.

    Huh? Has the phrase "all you have to do" been used?

    >This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    >boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build the
    >system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.

    'Prototype' ha! All that will be prototyped is what the server spits
    out port 80. You are correct.

    >
    >What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    >know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    >project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts his
    >word, but not mine.
    >

    My opinion is you're pretty much screwed. The UI person's involvement
    precludes using the tool properly. Still you might consider promoting
    the many advantages ASP.NET brings to the table. You might find
    localization to be a visible selling point.

    If your company wants the website to be in both English and French how
    can it be done? It might be as simple as creating a new resource file
    or as complex as translating every page in the application before
    creating a second website. After that what will it take to re-create
    the website in Spanish?

    regards and good luck
    A.G.
    Registered User, Sep 16, 2006
    #6
  7. =?Utf-8?B?Q2hyaXMgRGF2b2xp?=

    Paxton Guest

    I don't see where the OP mentioned Classic ASP. And classic ASP is not
    "just VBScript". It's a framework for building dynamic web
    applications against which you can use VBscript, JScript or PerlScript.
    Equally, the server side script is not "exposed on the web site".
    It's processed on the web server and produces html to be output to the
    browser.

    --
    Mike Brind

    Microsoft Developer wrote:
    > So your trying to mix an old technology with the new one?!!! Thats strange.
    > Why not just use the new. Its faster, better and easier. Classic ASP is very
    > old, and microsoft decided to come out with a new easier platform that does
    > more. That is why microsoft decided to go a different route and changed the
    > platform completely. The advantages of .Net are enormous. All new classes are
    > created in .Net. No new classes (for example GDI+, LDAP security, Server
    > controls) are being created in classic ASP. None of these exist in classic
    > asp. When .Net first came out it had over three thousand classes. No telling
    > how many methods in these classes. And then there are properties. Of course
    > .Net replaced classic asp. The new model works more efficiently because it is
    > compiled code. The classic ASP model is just VB script. And this VB script is
    > exposed in the web site (for hackers to try and exploit), while the .Net
    > model is compiled binary code. No source code gets published to the server.
    > Also, the formatting of HTML is very easy. Everything is done in the
    > codebehind on the backend. The server controls now generate the html. Its a
    > lot easier. You don't have to do much HTML or javascript anymore, unless you
    > want to.
    >
    > Of course you will be able to build faster in the new technology (assuming
    > that you are both at the same level).
    >
    > Sounds like you have someone with a training issue. I can't imagine a web
    > guy who doesn't want to learn!!! His manager should send him to class, and
    > then after that if he doesn't know the new technology, there is a learning
    > issue on his part and appropriate action needs to be taken by the manager
    > to...
    >
    >
    > "Chris Davoli" wrote:
    >
    > > I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    > > end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So far
    > > he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    > > training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web pages
    > > in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its better
    > > to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    > > most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    > > stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    > > would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to do
    > > the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend in
    > > VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    > > boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build the
    > > system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.
    > >
    > > What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    > > know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    > > project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts his
    > > word, but not mine.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Chris Davoli
    > >
    Paxton, Sep 16, 2006
    #7
  8. Well, being myself a programmer, I actually agree with the html guy. I
    myself took this way several times. It is much easier to make a prototype in
    pure html. It is not that difficult to convert html controls to server ones.
    That is what runat="server" is all about. And anyway any user-friendly web
    page would use a lot of javascript. So, if they guy writes good javascripts,
    why not to let him do that? You may save a lot in your server-side code.

    --
    Eliyahu Goldin,
    Software Developer & Consultant
    Microsoft MVP [ASP.NET]


    "Chris Davoli" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I need just opionions. I'm VB.NET programmer and I work with another front
    > end HTML guy who doesn't know .Net and how to use the .Net controls. So
    > far
    > he has been unwilling or unable to learn .Net even though I have been
    > training him, he hasn't caught on. He is good on "prettying up" the web
    > pages
    > in old HTML controls and javascript, which anybody can do. He says its
    > better
    > to do the front end first in HTML, then do the backend. By backend I mean
    > most of the major work to get the fields off the page and call components,
    > stored procs, Database Design, etc to do all the processing. The front end
    > would be defined as just the HTML and javascript. He thinks its better to
    > do
    > the front end first using the old HTML controls, and then do the backend
    > in
    > VB.Net. This to me is a bad choice, and I have been unable to convince my
    > boss otherwise. Maybe prototype it first in HTML, but my idea is to build
    > the
    > system first, then "pretty" it up at the end.
    >
    > What are the opinions out there from you experts for this little "Gem"? I
    > know this is unbeleivable that we are wasting time on a mission critical
    > project this way, but I need some other opionins because my boss trusts
    > his
    > word, but not mine.
    >
    > --
    > Chris Davoli
    >
    Eliyahu Goldin, Sep 17, 2006
    #8
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