Good Sites - who's got some examples?

[Whitecrest]

Maybe you didn't notice, but almost none of those sites use Flash as their
primary website. (at least not the big ones)
Most of those examples were for multimedia presentations and embedded media
for supplemental website content - which nobody is arguing against.

there were I believe 115 pages of examples each with about 15 examples
on each page.... I am sure you took good look in less than 15 minutes
(look at the time stamps of the posts)

Well you got spunk to keep arguing I guess.

 

[Whitecrest]

Perhaps you have a reading comprehension problem.
Read my post again:
"Do you have *any* statistics for e-commerce incomes of Flash based
websites?"
Simple question. Only requires a "Yes" or "No" answer.

The links are there for you to follow.

 

[EightNineThree]

http://www.oreillynet.com/lpt/a/588

Lets get past one thing before you vomit more Red Herrings on the newsgroup:
Nobody's arguing against the use of Flash for multimedia presentations or
supplemental content, which is what your "sources" seem to revolve around.
The discussion - at least from my perspective - revolves around whole sites.
Afterall, the topic is "Good sites..."


--
Karl Core

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche

eightninethree AT eightninethree.com

 

[Wipkip]

http://wipkip.us/polls/poll_14.php

 

[EightNineThree]

And for for the general population that use the default son their
computer, it is completely usable.


(actually supports design)

That's odd. I think it says: " In most commercial websites, the role of the
traditional graphic designer is relatively minor. The role of the
information architect is central. The role of the editor and author is
critical. "
and:
" As Business 2.0 summed it up: "Complex and beautiful may win awards, but
ugly and simple might just win the marathon." "

I see your biased articles and raise you
http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/

Oddly enough, you seem to have avoided the remaining links. Wonder why?
Oh, that's right - Flash apologists have a personal vendetta against
Nielsen...


--
Karl Core

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche

eightninethree AT eightninethree.com

 

[EightNineThree]

there were I believe 115 pages of examples each with about 15 examples
on each page.... I am sure you took good look in less than 15 minutes
(look at the time stamps of the posts)

Well you got spunk to keep arguing I guess.

I read about 20 of the descriptions for the largest companies.
NONE of them used Flash as their primary website.

Find one. Find ONE Forbes 500 company that uses Flash to present the
primary content of their website.
http://tinyurl.com/b7um

Don't bother pointing out a site with product-specific multimedia
presentations
Don't bother pointing out a site with Flash for supplemental content.
Point out ONE that uses Flash for the entire site.


--
Karl Core

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche

eightninethree AT eightninethree.com

 

[Mark Parnell]

Sometime around Mon, 6 Oct 2003 06:49:34 -0400, Whitecrest is reported to
have stated:

No one will ever search google for "brown carbonated beverage".

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=brown+carbonated+beverage

 

[kchayka]

See you already have decided that anything I offer is inadequate.

Not at all. If you could show proof of your claims, I would be inclined
to concede that you were right. You can't prove it, though, can you?
You even said in another post
"Actually you can easily allow the user to change the size of the text."

I have never seen Flash allow this kind of user control. Where is it?

All I
can say is that companies love this stuff, and customers love this
stuff. Sorry you don't.

I've tried to tell you before that it has nothing to do with liking it
or not. Flash is inherently inaccessible. If I can't adjust the text
size, it remains inaccessible. You saying it ain't so doesn't make it
true. Show me your proof and I'll believe you.

 

[Mark Jones]

Lets get past one thing before you vomit more Red Herrings on the newsgroup:
Nobody's arguing against the use of Flash for multimedia presentations or
supplemental content, which is what your "sources" seem to revolve around.
The discussion - at least from my perspective - revolves around whole sites.
Afterall, the topic is "Good sites..."

I can't find the site right now, but I looked at a hotel
web site that was done in Flash with the Flash content
coming from a database. This allowed for interactive
viewing of a room you want to reserve along with
price and availability. This made the site very
interactive and according to the site owner and
developer it was easier to maintain than their
previous site that used DHTML.

 

[Paul Goodwin]

http://wipkip.us/polls/poll_14.php

Wow, 3 posts to a humungous thread & I'm in a poll!

While we 3 may appear to be married to at least 4 of you, rest assured that
I would never, *ever* be so foolhardy as to walk down that aisle again ;-)

 

[Toby A Inkster]

This made the site very
interactive and according to the site owner and
developer it was easier to maintain than their
previous site that used DHTML.

Just the fact that the developer actually used the term 'DHTML' shows that
they know very little about it.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

And for for the general population that use the default son

Son 1.0 is incompatible with Wife 2.0.

 

[Toby A Inkster]

I see your biased articles

Biased? Are you aware that Jakob Nielsen (publisher of alertbox) actually
*works* for Macromedia? (Admittedly, the second of those articles was
written before he took up the post.)

 

[Isofarro]

Or 406.

*ROTFL*

 

[Whitecrest]

Nobody's arguing against the use of Flash for multimedia presentations or
supplemental content, which is what your "sources" seem to revolve around....

I have always stated that a company who's web site's primary goal is to
create income, or give out text information (google etc..), they need to
be usable and viewable by as many people as they can.

With a site that is NOT a primary money maker (Cartoon channel, the
Subaru site, etc...), you are free to use what ever you like to get your
point across the way you want to get it a cross. Your site is basically
an advertisement. And different types of advertisements are liked by
different types of people.

 

[Whitecrest]

I've tried to tell you before that it has nothing to do with liking it
or not.

This is the key, you think it does not have anything to do with someone
liking it or not, I say it is all about if someone likes it or not.

Show me your proof and I'll believe you.

www.barbie.com A site who's primary goal is to give little girls a safe
place to play on the web. Here is a site that uses flash., JavaScript
and just about everything else. And it is perfectly ok for it to do
that. Because you can not do it in any more accessible way than with
Flash. To accomplish what they are trying to accomplish Flash IS the
most accessible method of doing it. There is a HUGE market for this
type of site. I have given example after example. ALL of the examples
are unconcerned if you can not see them with your PDA.

If you want to see their content, then you must view it the way they
want to present it.

 

[kchayka]

Mind the wrapping:
http://dynamic.macromedia.com/bin/MM/showcase/scripts/showcase_cs_listin
g_by_query.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@2127113131.1065570519
@@@@&BV_EngineID=hadcihgikggjbedcgemcgcfk.0&product=Flash

404 not found. After hunting and pecking some, I think I found the same
showcase/flash page. However, this merely lists sites using Flash, not
any that specifically use it in any kind of accessible way. You aren't
proving your point at all.

Going down the list:

1. http://www.evb.com/link.php?project,52
They have apparently disabled all user-overrides. A fine example of
inaccessible Flash, indeed. Text the size of fly droppings. All I can
do is look at the pictures. Whoopee.

2. http://www.moock.org/unity/
No Flash content at all, just a few demos, such as
http://www.moock.org/unity/clients/uGuestBook/
Text size is too small for me to read without squinting. There is no
means to increase the text size other than Flash's zoom feature. Zoom
in and most of the content is outside the viewing area, so it's pretty
much unusable. A prime example of the inadequacies of Flash's zoom feature.

3. http://www.dnpribbons.com/tools_and_resources/ribbon_runner/
Same problem as #1, text size is too small, can't make it readable.

4. http://www.root6.com/Home/Flash.htm
Same problem as #1, text size is barely tolerable for reading.

5. http://www.baconskateboards.com/
Clueless sniffing kept sending me to a "you don't have flash" page when
I obviously do. I experienced a pile of usability problems here, but
it's a niche site for a niche audience, and I'm not in it.

6. http://www.gulfstream.com/
Flash primarily just for navigation, a fine example of Flash misuse.
Not surprising, considering all the other accessibility problems here.

I found the info on Macromedia's site most interesting, though:
"Average visitor session on hybrid Flash and HTML site is double that of
the previous Flash-only site"

Gee, I wonder what it would be if they got rid of the Flash altogether?


How far down the list do I have to go before I find a site that's usable?

 

[kchayka]

This is the key, you think it does not have anything to do with someone
liking it or not, I say it is all about if someone likes it or not.

You are mistaken.

www.barbie.com A site who's primary goal is to give little girls a safe
place to play on the web.

barbie.com and cartoon network target kids. Kids like animation and
stuff that Flash does pretty well. duh. But barbie is really no better
than other Flash sites - text is too small for me to read and they've
gone and disabled all the user-overrides, including zoom.

Regardless, so far you haven't given any examples of a commerce or
information site that uses Flash as a means (primary or not) of
presenting content, and is usable to boot. Where are all the well-made
Flash sites for us grown-ups, huh? I haven't found one yet.

ALL of the examples
are unconcerned if you can not see them with your PDA.

Who said anything about a PDA? I cannot see them with my _desktop_ pc,
which happens to include a high resolution monitor. But the way most
Flash sites are designed, I might as well be using a PDA.

If you want to see their content, then you must view it the way they
want to present it.

Are you suggesting I *downgrade* my hardware just so I can use Flash
sites as the designers intended? That's pretty stoopid.

 

[Whitecrest]

barbie.com and cartoon network target kids.

Duh, ok, a little older how about the subaru site. It is the exact same
thing except geared to big kids.

I cannot see them with my _desktop_ pc,
which happens to include a high resolution monitor.

Yes you can, you just don't want to see them.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

EightNineThree wrote:

Maybe you didn't notice, but almost none of those sites use Flash as their
primary website. (at least not the big ones)
Most of those examples were for multimedia presentations and embedded media
for supplemental website content - which nobody is arguing against.

In my opinion, that is what Flash is best used for, and I have never
used it as anything other than a supplemental device, a way to "Flash"
things up a little. Personally, I would not design an entire site in
Flash (well, I _would_ if you insist and fork over enough cash), because
I, too, think it would be a bad idea to do so for a variety of reasons.
(X)HTML and CSS are the basic languages of the web and by far the best
and most prudent way to present any kind of textual information on the
web, and I would strongly advice against using anything else for a
site's basics. But (X)HTML and CSS are here to stay and no matter what
Macromedia's advertising strategy may suggest, the Web's standards are
not in danger of being replaced by a -- gasp! -- the proprietary
standard owned by a corporation -- Microsoft couldn't even do that --
and the Web won't be overtaken by Flash. Flash is just like any other
plug in, and it can be a useful plug in indeed.
I would suspect that the majority of sites programmed entirely in Flash
-- usually commercial sites whose primary purpose is advertising and not
providing information -- have a special audience in mind to whom they
are catering, just like a TV spost caters to a special audience, or a
beer commercial. Barbie.com is aimed at little girls who have probably
fun at the site, not at hard core HTMLers who surf in the source code
window.