Good Sites - who's got some examples?

[Wipkip]

Wow, 3 posts to a humungous thread & I'm in a poll!

A few more than 3 posts.

 

[Jeroen Visser [ vizi ]]

[The usual Flash-vs-Usability flame]

Oddly enough, you seem to have avoided the remaining links. Wonder why?
Oh, that's right - Flash apologists have a personal vendetta against
Nielsen...

Oddly enough, the radical anti-Flash globalists still stick to their
'Nielsen says so', while the King himself has moved on:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=Jakob Nielsen Macromedia>

Needless to say that it is not the tool that crafts a product, but the
person who applies it.

Jeroen Visser

 

[Mark Jones]

Just the fact that the developer actually used the term 'DHTML' shows that
they know very little about it.

This is a commonly used term that most web designers
understand.

 

[Mark Jones]

Duh, ok, a little older how about the subaru site. It is the exact same
thing except geared to big kids.


Yes you can, you just don't want to see them.

I can see it just fine on my 21 inch monitor at 1280x1024.
He must be running an unusual system if it is totally
incapable of running the Flash player.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Mark Jones pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:

This is a commonly used term that most web designers
understand.

Even MicroSloth, apparently.

<URL:http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-
us/dnacc/html/accssblwebpgs.asp>

Using DHTML Elements and Events

Of course, in today's Web world, it is difficult to build a good-looking
application using only plain vanilla HTML 3.2 elements. DHTML is used in
every interactive Web site in the world.

 

[kchayka]

Duh, ok, a little older how about the subaru site. It is the exact same
thing except geared to big kids.


Yes you can, you just don't want to see them.

I don't know how you figure that. The subaru site is the worst of the
bunch, as far as readability goes. All text in the Flash content is
completely unreadable. All of the user controls, including zoom, are
disabled. They have designed the site so I _can't_ read anything
whether I want to or not. That's a fact.

 

[Whitecrest]

I don't know how you figure that. The subaru site is the worst of the
bunch, as far as readability goes. All text in the Flash content is
completely unreadable. All of the user controls, including zoom, are
disabled. They have designed the site so I _can't_ read anything
whether I want to or not. That's a fact.

And the other fact is that they don't care if they loose your sale. You
choose, they choose, both have consequences.

 

[brucie]

Okay, there's a lot to be criticized in many major websites; overuse of
Flash, excessive and unnecessary table layout, inaccessibility problems,
proprietary tags disabling the use of a site for visitors with other
browsers, pop up windows, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera... We read
about a lot of such sites here.

true but i have nothing to add to the thread. i was just feeling left
out.

 

[Mark Parnell]

Sometime around Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:49:48 -0400, Whitecrest is reported to
have stated:

You choose, they choose, both have consequences.

I think Kchayka's point is that in this case he _doesn't_ have a choice.
In theory he is doing everything they want - he has Flash installed and
enabled, but the text is *still* unreadable. He has no choice in that.
Unless you are saying that his physical inability to read small text is his
choice?

 

[Barefoot Kid]

| In article <a%[email protected]>,
| What is it with people who think of design as 'graphical design' all the
| time.

i don't, i was making the point that the graphical design of a site is not irrelevant but can be
just as important as the content

 

[Paul Goodwin]

99.9999% of people using Flash to make a website don't know a thing about
ease-of-use or accessibility.

Cite sources.

;-)

 

[EightNineThree]

[The usual Flash-vs-Usability flame]

Oddly enough, you seem to have avoided the remaining links. Wonder why?
Oh, that's right - Flash apologists have a personal vendetta against
Nielsen...

Oddly enough, the radical anti-Flash globalists still stick to their
'Nielsen says so', while the King himself has moved on:
<http://www.google.com/search?q=Jakob Nielsen Macromedia>

Needless to say that it is not the tool that crafts a product, but the
person who applies it.

Jeroen Visser

Yeah yeah yeah. Guns don't kill people, people use guns to kill people.

99.9999% of people using Flash to make a website don't know a thing about
ease-of-use or accessibility.
However, this trait isn't unique to Flash designers, its just that *at
least* regular (read as: "non-Flash") sites don't break the standard GUI
expectations people are used to with sites.
So what if it can be made to be usable? The fact is, nobody is doing it.


--
Karl Core

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not
cease to be insipid.
Friedrich Nietzsche

eightninethree AT eightninethree.com

 

[kchayka]

I can see it just fine on my 21 inch monitor at 1280x1024.

That's an awfully low resolution for a 21-in monitor, everything would
look enormous to me. Try upping your screen size a few notches and see
how subaru.com looks then.

He must be running an unusual system if it is totally
incapable of running the Flash player.

Um, I never said I couldn't run Flash, just that I can't read the text
on pretty much any Flash site I've ever come across. BTW, my
environment works extremely well with all other apps, so suggesting I
change my configuration just because of Flash is a ridiculous notion.

I filled out subaru's feedback form and politely told them their site
was pretty much unusable and a couple reasons why. Wonder what kind of
response I'll get?

 

[Mark Parnell]

Sometime around Wed, 08 Oct 2003 22:41:35 -0500, kchayka is reported to
have stated:

I filled out subaru's feedback form and politely told them their site
was pretty much unusable and a couple reasons why. Wonder what kind of
response I'll get?

Probably none. Either that or "It must be your system..."

 

[Richard Rundle]

I have always stated that a company who's web site's primary goal is to
create income, or give out text information (google etc..), they need to
be usable and viewable by as many people as they can.

With a site that is NOT a primary money maker (Cartoon channel, the
Subaru site, etc...), you are free to use what ever you like to get your
point across the way you want to get it a cross. Your site is basically
an advertisement. And different types of advertisements are liked by
different types of people.

And what is the primary goal of "an advertisment" if it is not to "create
income" ?

 

[Whitecrest]

Sometime around Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:49:48 -0400, Whitecrest is reported to
have stated:


I think Kchayka's point is that in this case he _doesn't_ have a choice.
In theory he is doing everything they want - he has Flash installed and
enabled, but the text is *still* unreadable. He has no choice in that.
Unless you are saying that his physical inability to read small text is his
choice?

Both Microsoft and Macromedia have a magnifier. He doesn't like them.
I am sorry he doesn't like the solution, but there are two of them.

 

[Whitecrest]

Yeah yeah yeah. Guns don't kill people, people use guns to kill people.
99.9999% of people using Flash to make a website don't know a thing about
ease-of-use or accessibility.

So shouldn't your argument be that they learn about accessibility rather
than ban the product?

However, this trait isn't unique to Flash designers, its just that *at
least* regular (read as: "non-Flash") sites don't break the standard GUI
expectations people are used to with sites.

So because you don't like it, you want to force everyone to not have it.
I do not force you to look at flash, but you want to ban flash for the
millions that like it. Your rights to see every stinking thing on the
web over rides my rights to look at things I want to look at.

Yes, keep believing THAT will ever happen.

So what if it can be made to be usable? The fact is, nobody is doing it.

As I said you are whining the wrong thing. You will never make Flash
goes away. At best you had better convince Flash designers to learn
about accessibility and usability. Because if you don't then you will
be SOL when it comes to surfing.

Do you notice that even thought I am a flash lover I still stress
accessibility, and 508 compliance? That is because it is easy to do.
You need to be preaching Accessibility to the Flash designers, not "go
away we don't like you"

 

[Mark Jones]

That's an awfully low resolution for a 21-in monitor, everything would
look enormous to me. Try upping your screen size a few notches and see
how subaru.com looks then.

This is actually the standard resolution to run a 21 inch
monitor at. It gives a pixel per inch resolution that is
consistent with what most smaller monitors are run at.

If you are running higher resolution, that would explain
why things look smaller to you than they do to almost
everyone else.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

In post <[email protected]>
Nicolai P. Zwar said...




true but i have nothing to add to the thread. i was just feeling left
out.

Considering your impressive track record in adding useful things to
other threads, don't feel too bad about it, brucie.

 

[kchayka]

Sometime around Wed, 8 Oct 2003 21:49:48 -0400, Whitecrest is reported to
have stated:


I think Kchayka's point is that in this case he _doesn't_ have a choice.
In theory he is doing everything they want - he has Flash installed and
enabled, but the text is *still* unreadable. He has no choice in that.
Unless you are saying that his physical inability to read small text is his
choice?

Actually, subaru made that choice for me, too, when they disabled the
Flash zoom control.