How Synopsys could save $$ without offshoring

Discussion in 'VHDL' started by Tom Joad, Dec 20, 2003.

  1. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    Actually, this doesn't just apply to Synopsys, all of the big EDA
    companies are sending jobs offshore now.

    It goes without saying that Silicon Valley is expensive. It's an
    expensive place to live and an expensive place to do business.
    Because it's an expensive place to live, companies have to pay more to
    their employees there so they can afford to live there.

    The simplistic answer we're getting from the corporations these days
    is "We've got to offshore jobs to save money so we can compete because
    everyone is doing it.". Of course the premise of this argument is
    debatable in itself: are they saving money on salaries and losing in
    productivity or do they simply think they're going to make it up in
    volume (of employees). But even if the overseas engineers are not as
    experienced as their US counterparts, they soon will be - might take a
    few years, but they will be. So we're not only going to see jobs and
    money leave the US (salaries not paid here means no taxes for
    Fed/State/local governments paid by employees - this is the main
    reason most states are coming up short on revenue not because tax
    rates are too low, but I digress.) but also knowledge and experience.
    US engineers will not be able to keep up their skillsets on their own
    and soon they'll lag behind.

    Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    savings.

    Of course Synopsys isn't the only EDA company that could save money
    this way and thus avoid at least some offshoring. Cadence, for
    example, could do something similar. I believe Mentor Graphics
    already has their headquarters out of the Valley (also in Oregon?) so
    they may not be able to save much, but there are also some large
    Mentor Graphics sites in the Valley.

    Lots of engineers who haven't lost their jobs yet are getting nervous.
    Those who have are getting mighty angry about offshoring. There are
    more and more stories about offshoring in the mainstream news. The
    political mood would seem to turning against the practice. If you big
    corporations could avoid it, it might do you some good. We've already
    lost manufacturing. Let's not lose engineering, if that happens the
    US will cease to be a technology leader. And if that happens, how
    long till the US falls to third world status?

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Dec 20, 2003
    #1
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  2. Tom Joad

    tbx135 Guest

    Offshoring is the market saying that labor is over-priced. Supply/demand is
    a natural law and while everyone can talk a good game at "protecting" jobs,
    the truth is if you can't compete, your business and it's "protected" jobs
    go away. Want to keep your job? Cut wages to compete.


    "Tom Joad" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Actually, this doesn't just apply to Synopsys, all of the big EDA
    > companies are sending jobs offshore now.
    >
    > It goes without saying that Silicon Valley is expensive. It's an
    > expensive place to live and an expensive place to do business.
    > Because it's an expensive place to live, companies have to pay more to
    > their employees there so they can afford to live there.
    >
    > The simplistic answer we're getting from the corporations these days
    > is "We've got to offshore jobs to save money so we can compete because
    > everyone is doing it.". Of course the premise of this argument is
    > debatable in itself: are they saving money on salaries and losing in
    > productivity or do they simply think they're going to make it up in
    > volume (of employees). But even if the overseas engineers are not as
    > experienced as their US counterparts, they soon will be - might take a
    > few years, but they will be. So we're not only going to see jobs and
    > money leave the US (salaries not paid here means no taxes for
    > Fed/State/local governments paid by employees - this is the main
    > reason most states are coming up short on revenue not because tax
    > rates are too low, but I digress.) but also knowledge and experience.
    > US engineers will not be able to keep up their skillsets on their own
    > and soon they'll lag behind.
    >
    > Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    > and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    > loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    > noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    > rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    > move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    > space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    > years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    > area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    > $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    > not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    > dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    > it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    > Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    > savings.
    >
    > Of course Synopsys isn't the only EDA company that could save money
    > this way and thus avoid at least some offshoring. Cadence, for
    > example, could do something similar. I believe Mentor Graphics
    > already has their headquarters out of the Valley (also in Oregon?) so
    > they may not be able to save much, but there are also some large
    > Mentor Graphics sites in the Valley.
    >
    > Lots of engineers who haven't lost their jobs yet are getting nervous.
    > Those who have are getting mighty angry about offshoring. There are
    > more and more stories about offshoring in the mainstream news. The
    > political mood would seem to turning against the practice. If you big
    > corporations could avoid it, it might do you some good. We've already
    > lost manufacturing. Let's not lose engineering, if that happens the
    > US will cease to be a technology leader. And if that happens, how
    > long till the US falls to third world status?
    >
    > Tom Joad
     
    tbx135, Dec 21, 2003
    #2
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  3. Tom Joad

    Jerry Guest

    cut wages? then cut housing, food, insurance, automobile, taxes and
    everything else my wages go to cover.

    "tbx135" <> wrote in message
    news:WwjFb.7911$...
    > Offshoring is the market saying that labor is over-priced. Supply/demand

    is
    > a natural law and while everyone can talk a good game at "protecting"

    jobs,
    > the truth is if you can't compete, your business and it's "protected" jobs
    > go away. Want to keep your job? Cut wages to compete.
    >
    >
    > "Tom Joad" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Actually, this doesn't just apply to Synopsys, all of the big EDA
    > > companies are sending jobs offshore now.
    > >
    > > It goes without saying that Silicon Valley is expensive. It's an
    > > expensive place to live and an expensive place to do business.
    > > Because it's an expensive place to live, companies have to pay more to
    > > their employees there so they can afford to live there.
    > >
    > > The simplistic answer we're getting from the corporations these days
    > > is "We've got to offshore jobs to save money so we can compete because
    > > everyone is doing it.". Of course the premise of this argument is
    > > debatable in itself: are they saving money on salaries and losing in
    > > productivity or do they simply think they're going to make it up in
    > > volume (of employees). But even if the overseas engineers are not as
    > > experienced as their US counterparts, they soon will be - might take a
    > > few years, but they will be. So we're not only going to see jobs and
    > > money leave the US (salaries not paid here means no taxes for
    > > Fed/State/local governments paid by employees - this is the main
    > > reason most states are coming up short on revenue not because tax
    > > rates are too low, but I digress.) but also knowledge and experience.
    > > US engineers will not be able to keep up their skillsets on their own
    > > and soon they'll lag behind.
    > >
    > > Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    > > and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    > > loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    > > noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    > > rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    > > move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    > > space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    > > years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    > > area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    > > $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    > > not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    > > dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    > > it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    > > Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    > > savings.
    > >
    > > Of course Synopsys isn't the only EDA company that could save money
    > > this way and thus avoid at least some offshoring. Cadence, for
    > > example, could do something similar. I believe Mentor Graphics
    > > already has their headquarters out of the Valley (also in Oregon?) so
    > > they may not be able to save much, but there are also some large
    > > Mentor Graphics sites in the Valley.
    > >
    > > Lots of engineers who haven't lost their jobs yet are getting nervous.
    > > Those who have are getting mighty angry about offshoring. There are
    > > more and more stories about offshoring in the mainstream news. The
    > > political mood would seem to turning against the practice. If you big
    > > corporations could avoid it, it might do you some good. We've already
    > > lost manufacturing. Let's not lose engineering, if that happens the
    > > US will cease to be a technology leader. And if that happens, how
    > > long till the US falls to third world status?
    > >
    > > Tom Joad

    >
    >
     
    Jerry, Dec 22, 2003
    #3
  4. Tom Joad

    Russell Shaw Guest

    tbx135 wrote:
    > Offshoring is the market saying that labor is over-priced. Supply/demand is
    > a natural law and while everyone can talk a good game at "protecting" jobs,
    > the truth is if you can't compete, your business and it's "protected" jobs
    > go away. Want to keep your job? Cut wages to compete.


    It is natural for people to want something for nothing. It is natural to
    steal (it is viewed as sharing in a communal society). It is natural for
    politicians to be corrupt (those that aren't, aren't in power anyway). It
    is natural for monopolies to form and black economies to flourish. It is
    natural for nations to invade only others that have oil. It is natural for
    there to be traders and consumers of cocain.
    The role of a government is to be non-corrupt and suppress a few of those
    natural tendancies, as well as keeping the population employed by promoting
    exports of products (not jobs). If your government is exporting jobs, it is
    stupid and corrupt.
     
    Russell Shaw, Dec 22, 2003
    #4
  5. Tom Joad

    Andy Peters Guest

    (Tom Joad) wrote in message news:<>...
    > Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    > and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    > loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    > noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    > rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    > move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    > space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    > years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    > area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    > $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    > not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    > dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    > it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    > Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    > savings.


    OK, consider the problem of the poor bastard who bought his house in
    Silicon Valley at the height of the boom. Sure, you can buy a house
    for $200K in Oregon ($200K buys a real nice place in Tucson, too), but
    that doesn't help when you can't unload your shack in Si Valley
    because you have a $500K note on a property worth much less, 'cause
    nobody's buyin' 'cause the jobs are leaving.

    Maybe Synopsis should get into the real-estate biz, and buy up, at a
    profit for the employee, the homes of the employees who move?

    Like that'll happen.

    --a
     
    Andy Peters, Dec 22, 2003
    #5
  6. Tom Joad

    tbx135 Guest

    Here's the deal - I can get an overseas resource for 1/2 what I pay here
    plus the management agravation. I can sell cheaper as a result. You can
    protect your job anyway you want, I'll get around that. In the end I get a
    cheaper resource, you lose your job. Ask manufacturing, textile, steel
    people about all this. If you want to put your faith in some politician
    fixing this, go right ahead.

    Wages will go up overseas, after a while and talent will become short. But
    thats not happening now. If you want to protect your job, work competitively
    with the rest of the world.
     
    tbx135, Dec 22, 2003
    #6
  7. Tom Joad

    tbx135 Guest

    > that doesn't help when you can't unload your shack in Si Valley

    We all take risks...No one was pissing and moaning when those homes
    appriciated in value. I also remember the $200+/hr software
    contractors...Anyone save any money?
     
    tbx135, Dec 22, 2003
    #7
  8. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    "tbx135" <> wrote in message news:<WwjFb.7911$>...
    > Offshoring is the market saying that labor is over-priced. Supply/demand is
    > a natural law and while everyone can talk a good game at "protecting" jobs,
    > the truth is if you can't compete, your business and it's "protected" jobs
    > go away. Want to keep your job? Cut wages to compete.
    >
    >


    I've heard of people offering to work for less money to prevent their
    jobs from being offshored, but this is never considered a serious
    option by management. I suppose they figure that when the economy
    improves you'll leave or ask for a raise or something.

    Certainly I'd be willing to work for less than I used to. Even up to
    30% less, I suppose. However, there are limits. I've still got to
    pay rent, insurance, electricity bills, etc. Hey, maybe I should tell
    my landlord that he needs to compete and lower his rents by 50%?
    Maybe I should mention this to the electric company & the grocery
    store as well. Yeah, I'm sure that's going to work and they'll be so
    glad I suggested it to them. How about that health insurance? Maybe
    I should just go without so I can be more competitive on the global
    market. And then there's cars; who needs 'em, since we're aiming for
    3rd world here, I should get a donkey.

    I too was once a member of the Church of the Invisible Hand. I no
    longer count myself a member of that congregation since doubts caused
    me to disbelieve.

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Dec 23, 2003
    #8
  9. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    (Andy Peters) wrote in message news:<>...
    > (Tom Joad) wrote in message news:<>...
    > > Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    > > and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    > > loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    > > noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    > > rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    > > move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    > > space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    > > years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    > > area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    > > $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    > > not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    > > dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    > > it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    > > Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    > > savings.

    >
    > OK, consider the problem of the poor bastard who bought his house in
    > Silicon Valley at the height of the boom. Sure, you can buy a house
    > for $200K in Oregon ($200K buys a real nice place in Tucson, too), but
    > that doesn't help when you can't unload your shack in Si Valley
    > because you have a $500K note on a property worth much less, 'cause
    > nobody's buyin' 'cause the jobs are leaving.
    >


    It's a problem, that's for sure, but I wonder how many people are in
    that situation. Probably not that many. Of course, considering the
    alternative, it could still be a lot better to walk away from a
    mortage like that if you've got an opportunity at steady work
    elsewhere.

    > Maybe Synopsis should get into the real-estate biz, and buy up, at a
    > profit for the employee, the homes of the employees who move?
    >


    Some companies will assist in selling the property, but these days
    it's probably not likely.

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Dec 23, 2003
    #9
  10. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    "tbx135" <> wrote in message news:<NiKFb.8180$>...
    > Here's the deal - I can get an overseas resource for 1/2 what I pay here
    > plus the management agravation. I can sell cheaper as a result.


    But why do we need you? Why not just send your management position
    over? Why should you make any more than a Wal*Mart Associate if the
    rest of us are supposed to be making that much? Come on now, get with
    the program and compete!

    > You can
    > protect your job anyway you want, I'll get around that. In the end I get a
    > cheaper resource, you lose your job. Ask manufacturing, textile, steel
    > people about all this.


    Yeah, they're all Wal*Mart Associates now. So basically, you're
    proposing that we not make or design anything in this country. We'll
    just sell lattes and cheap Wal*Mart junk to each other. It's bad
    enough we we don't manufacture anything here anymore, but it's going
    to be even worse when we don't design anything here.

    > If you want to put your faith in some politician
    > fixing this, go right ahead.


    I'm not sure if any politician can help us. Maybe there could be
    incentives to have a certain percentage of your workforce employed
    here.

    >
    > Wages will go up overseas, after a while and talent will become short. But
    > thats not happening now.


    and the wages between the third world and the US won't equalize for
    another 20, 30 years or so. What are we supposed to do in the
    meantime? During this time living standards will equalize and that
    means that living standards in America will fall by quite a bit before
    we're 'competitive' with the third world. One could hope that that
    would rile up a lot of folks here and get them nice and mad so we can
    rethink this global capitalism madness, but it will probably happen
    slow enough that most folks won't notice till it's too late.

    >If you want to protect your job, work competitively
    > with the rest of the world.


    I'm work'n on get'n me a big cardboard box so's I can move under a
    freeway overpass and thus cut expenses so I can compete in the global
    marketplace, yes sir. Way I sees it, I won't need to pay rent anymore
    and of course there won't be any electric bill to pay either. And for
    food, well I can go dumpster diving at night after working my $7/hour
    engineering job for 12 hours. And if I choose an overpass that's
    close to work I won't need a car either. Hey, you think they'd just
    let me move the family into my cube? The kids could go out
    panhandling during the day so they won't be bother'n nobody.

    Yes siree, you got me to think'n about how I'm gonna compete with the
    rest of the world. I hope you're think'n about it too.

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Dec 23, 2003
    #10
  11. Tom Joad

    tbx135 Guest

    Here's a fact of life: Everyone likes to get a good deal. No one wants to
    pay too much.

    The lack of understanding of competition it is going to kill the US. Too
    many think they are entitled to this and that.

    Your tech job went away for the same reason you first got it: Economics.

    P.S. - If I worked at Wal-Mart, I'd be running the store soon, and it would
    be profitable.
     
    tbx135, Dec 23, 2003
    #11
  12. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    "tbx135" <> wrote in message news:<I2_Fb.8259$>...
    > Here's a fact of life: Everyone likes to get a good deal. No one wants to
    > pay too much.


    Sure, but people also like to get paid a decent amount too.

    >
    > The lack of understanding of competition it is going to kill the US. Too
    > many think they are entitled to this and that.


    As was already pointed out: there's no way you can compete with people
    in a totally different economic system where rents, for example, are
    equivilent to $50/month. ...where there are no labor or ecological
    laws - I'm not advocating that we get rid of those laws, they are part
    of what make the US more livable than many other places. ...where
    they have government health insurance (have you priced health
    insuranced lately?) Or where there aren't so many lawyers. The only
    way we can do that is to have massive deflation in the US so that
    workers here are competing on a level playing field with worker in,
    say, India or China.

    >
    > Your tech job went away for the same reason you first got it: Economics.
    >
    > P.S. - If I worked at Wal-Mart, I'd be running the store soon, and it would
    > be profitable.


    Well, those stores are already pretty profitable. So where are you
    going to cut to make them more profitable? Likely, you'll decide to
    screw the employees even more. Recently saw a skit where a fake
    reporter was interviewing a woman who had worked at Wal*Mart for 22
    years. The big news was that she would be eligble for health
    insurance in another three years. Not too far off the mark.

    That's the part of the equation you're missing: the workers. What
    good is it having lots of wildly profitable businesses if the workers
    are getting screwed or don't have a job at all? Wouldn't it be better
    to have businesses that might not be as profitable (but still make a
    profit), but treat their employees well? Most of us in this country
    work for someone else, so when you screw the workers you screw the
    country. Who is going to do all the consuming that is supposed to
    keep our economy going if we're all making much less or no money?

    What happened to Henry Ford's idea where he figured that the average
    worker on his assembly line should be able to afford the cars they
    were making? He felt he had an obligation to his workers and by
    extension to his country.

    Here's a question for you: Most EDA tools are pretty pricey - $50K for
    a tool isn't unusual. Do you really think that when the EDA tools are
    developed in India that the prices will actually go down to reflect
    lower labor costs? Not likely. Where's the extra money going to go?
    It'll fatten up the wallets of a few corporate officers, no doubt.
    Stock might go up a bit, but what will they do the next year to show
    even more profits? That's what Wall Street expects, ever rising
    profits. What are they going to cut the next year after they cut
    labor costs so low? (send the CEO over to India ;-)

    Here's a scenario for you: Now that we're moving all of the
    engineering jobs and knowhow (as in, we'll be losing knowhow) over to
    places like India, what's to stop them from starting their own EDA (or
    other technology) companies? It's going to happen, of course. So
    I'll predict right now that the EDA (and other technology) companies
    based in the US are sowing the seeds of their own demise amidst their
    greed. Why? Well, in five years when Indians have started their own
    EDA companies they'll be able to afford to price their software much
    lower than their US counterparts. Maybe they'll be able to charge $5K
    for tools that American companies are charging $50K for while still
    making a healthy profit. And as you say, "No one wants to pay too
    much".

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Dec 24, 2003
    #12
  13. Tom Joad

    tbx135 Guest

    You live in your world, I'll live in mine - Happy Holidays
     
    tbx135, Dec 24, 2003
    #13
  14. Y'know guys, sitting here as I am, on a different continent than
    America, reading about 'Valley people crying out about "outsourcing to
    aboard", is kind of odd.

    Netnews is a global media, and there are quite a few non-US people
    contributing to the vlsi related groups. So please, consider that your
    audience is not just the Valley, nor just California, and not just US
    of A. It's the whole d**n world.

    As for outsourcing, everyone is under pressure from the global job
    market - but to a different degree, depending on the specialization of
    your labor, and what the cost of your labor is.

    Globalization is a double-edged sword; we have a larger market to
    compete in, but we also have a larger body of competitors. Sorry to
    stir the bitter cup for you, but you cannot have the one without the
    other.


    Regards, and seasons greetings to everyone.


    Kai Harrekilde-Petersen
     
    Kai Harrekilde-Petersen, Dec 26, 2003
    #14
  15. Tom Joad

    EdwardH Guest

    The US Government is the major advocate of Globalisation. Every government
    wants to remove protection and further the cause of free trade. Exportation
    of
    jobs is another side of this coin. It started with manufacturing and has now
    moved
    up the food chain.

    We had a situation a few years back where there wasn't enough design talent
    around and companies looked to other countries for people. With the
    collapse of the dot comms and the downturn in the telecomms and computer
    industries suddenly there was an excess of people.

    Engineers in other countries also need to live. I live in Australia and
    worked for a multinational that closed down (and incidently is now
    outsourcing
    much of its work to India). I have been out of work for a year but will
    soon start work for another multinational.

    The issue for me is not that jobs go to other countries or that we should
    drop our living standards but rather how we innovate and create new
    technologies
    so that there is work for everyone. Responsible financial management and
    accountability at the top level in major corporations is another issue.

    Edward

    "Tom Joad" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > (Andy Peters) wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > > (Tom Joad) wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > > > Given that the major EDA companies are very much engineering companies
    > > > and are based in the US we might hope that they would have some
    > > > loyalty to the US. So how about other ideas for saving money? As was
    > > > noted above, Silicon Valley is expensive. Apparently Synopsys has a
    > > > rather large empty office building on their Oregon campus. Why not
    > > > move most of their engineering up to Oregon? The expense for office
    > > > space would seem to be much lower there and over a period of a few
    > > > years salaries could be allowed to match the lower salaries of that
    > > > area. I even hear you can get a very decent house up there for around
    > > > $200K. I'm sure that one of the arguments would be that employees may
    > > > not want to move, but given the increase in standard of living for the
    > > > dollar I suspect many would be very eager to relocate. And of course,
    > > > it beats the alternative of having your job sent over to India.
    > > > Believe me, being unemployed in the Valley quickly drains all your
    > > > savings.

    > >
    > > OK, consider the problem of the poor bastard who bought his house in
    > > Silicon Valley at the height of the boom. Sure, you can buy a house
    > > for $200K in Oregon ($200K buys a real nice place in Tucson, too), but
    > > that doesn't help when you can't unload your shack in Si Valley
    > > because you have a $500K note on a property worth much less, 'cause
    > > nobody's buyin' 'cause the jobs are leaving.
    > >

    >
    > It's a problem, that's for sure, but I wonder how many people are in
    > that situation. Probably not that many. Of course, considering the
    > alternative, it could still be a lot better to walk away from a
    > mortage like that if you've got an opportunity at steady work
    > elsewhere.
    >
    > > Maybe Synopsis should get into the real-estate biz, and buy up, at a
    > > profit for the employee, the homes of the employees who move?
    > >

    >
    > Some companies will assist in selling the property, but these days
    > it's probably not likely.
    >
    > Tom Joad
     
    EdwardH, Dec 27, 2003
    #15
  16. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    Re: How EDA COs could save $$ without offshoring

    Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > Y'know guys, sitting here as I am, on a different continent than
    > America, reading about 'Valley people crying out about "outsourcing to
    > aboard", is kind of odd.


    dk, is that Denmark? You are also in a high-cost labor country (at
    least as reckoned by the globa free traders) which means your jobs
    could be exported as well.

    >
    > Netnews is a global media, and there are quite a few non-US people
    > contributing to the vlsi related groups. So please, consider that your
    > audience is not just the Valley, nor just California, and not just US
    > of A. It's the whole d**n world.


    It's a global conversation. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening
    in Europe as well as the US.


    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Jan 1, 2004
    #16
  17. Tom Joad

    Tom Joad Guest

    Re: How Tech COs could save $$ without offshoring

    "EdwardH" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > The US Government is the major advocate of Globalisation. Every government
    > wants to remove protection and further the cause of free trade. Exportation
    > of
    > jobs is another side of this coin. It started with manufacturing and has now
    > moved
    > up the food chain.
    >
    > We had a situation a few years back where there wasn't enough design talent
    > around and companies looked to other countries for people. With the
    > collapse of the dot comms and the downturn in the telecomms and computer
    > industries suddenly there was an excess of people.
    >
    > Engineers in other countries also need to live. I live in Australia and
    > worked for a multinational that closed down (and incidently is now
    > outsourcing
    > much of its work to India). I have been out of work for a year but will
    > soon start work for another multinational.
    >
    > The issue for me is not that jobs go to other countries or that we should
    > drop our living standards but rather how we innovate and create new
    > technologies
    > so that there is work for everyone.


    I've often heard people in the free trade camp say that the US is more
    innovative than other places on the globe and that we will come up
    with some new idea or product that will save us. Sure, it's happened
    in the past so I suppose there is some precedent. But lately when I
    hear this it sounds more and more like a matter of religious faith.
    Why assume that only US engineers can come up with "The Next Big
    Thing"(TNBT)? The fact is that if vast numbers of US engineers no
    longer have the opportunity to develop their talents and skills they
    won't be able to come up with TNBT.

    It appears that the offshoring is just accelerating. Here are a
    couple of quotes from an article in EETimes last week:

    "Morgan Stanley estimates the number of U.S. jobs outsourced to India
    will double to about 150,000 in the next three years. Analysts predict
    as many as two million U.S. white-collar jobs such as programmers,
    software engineers and applications designers will shift to low cost
    centers by 2014."

    "Guyer believes as many as 40,000 of IBM's 160,000 U.S. jobs will be
    transferred overseas by 2005, a figure she says was gathered from
    phone calls by IBM employees."
    http://eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20031223S0008

    What good is it if US corporations are wildly profitable but keep
    employing fewer and fewer people in the US? Maybe it will look like
    GDP is growing at a rapid clip (kind of like it has looked for the
    last couple of quarters) while very few in the US have decent jobs
    anymore.

    Empires rise and fall and I suspect that even while it seems as though
    the US is at the top of it's game right now, it's really in the
    twilight of empire. When you decide as a culture that it is no longer
    important to actually make things or even _design_ things anymore,
    what's left? You sell raw materials to other countries and they sell
    back the goods made from them. Isn't that a lot like being a colony?

    Tom Joad
     
    Tom Joad, Jan 1, 2004
    #17
  18. Tom Joad

    Ron Jeffries Guest

    Re: How Tech COs could save $$ without offshoring

    On 31 Dec 2003 21:33:52 -0800, (Tom Joad) wrote:

    >Empires rise and fall and I suspect that even while it seems as though
    >the US is at the top of it's game right now, it's really in the
    >twilight of empire. When you decide as a culture that it is no longer
    >important to actually make things or even _design_ things anymore,
    >what's left? You sell raw materials to other countries and they sell
    >back the goods made from them. Isn't that a lot like being a colony?


    As much as I'd like not to believe this, it's hard not to see the possibility of
    truth in it.

    As a software developer, all I know to do is to work to make my skills, and my
    teams skills, as good as they can be, so that using us is as cost-effective as
    possible.

    As a political being -- something I'm really not good at -- I don't know what to
    recommend. Protectionism is a short-term strategy and may actually work against
    us finding The Next Big Thing, by letting us go back to sleep.

    An interesting difference about this situation compared to past situations is
    that the "business" thinks it has found a good way to be more effective -- use
    people from countries with lower pay scales. It may fall to the "profession" to
    come up with The Next Big Thing, to save itself.

    Or is there something short-sighted at a /business/ level about offshoring, and
    can a company that doesn't offshore find a way to eat the lunch of those that
    do? Responsiveness to its market, perhaps?

    Regards,

    --
    Ronald E Jeffries
    http://www.XProgramming.com
    http://www.objectmentor.com
    I'm giving the best advice I have. You get to decide whether it's true for you.
     
    Ron Jeffries, Jan 1, 2004
    #18
  19. Re: How EDA COs could save $$ without offshoring

    (Tom Joad) writes:

    > Kai Harrekilde-Petersen <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > > Y'know guys, sitting here as I am, on a different continent than
    > > America, reading about 'Valley people crying out about "outsourcing to
    > > aboard", is kind of odd.

    >
    > dk, is that Denmark? You are also in a high-cost labor country (at
    > least as reckoned by the globa free traders) which means your jobs
    > could be exported as well.


    dk is Denmark, correct. We've definitely seen the export of of
    low-tech labour from Denmark for the last 30 years or so, and the
    export of high-tech is starting to happen.

    > > Netnews is a global media, and there are quite a few non-US people
    > > contributing to the vlsi related groups. So please, consider that your
    > > audience is not just the Valley, nor just California, and not just US
    > > of A. It's the whole d**n world.

    >
    > It's a global conversation. I'm sure this sort of thing is happening
    > in Europe as well as the US.


    Indeed - that was part my point. Jobs will go where it is deemed most
    economically viable to have them.


    Happy new year to everyone,


    Kai
     
    Kai Harrekilde-Petersen, Jan 1, 2004
    #19
  20. Re: How Tech COs could save $$ without offshoring

    "Tom Joad" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "EdwardH" <> wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > > The US Government is the major advocate of Globalisation. Every

    government
    > > wants to remove protection and further the cause of free trade.

    Exportation
    > > of
    > > jobs is another side of this coin. It started with manufacturing and has

    now
    > > moved
    > > up the food chain.
    > >
    > > We had a situation a few years back where there wasn't enough design

    talent
    > > around and companies looked to other countries for people. With the
    > > collapse of the dot comms and the downturn in the telecomms and computer
    > > industries suddenly there was an excess of people.
    > >
    > > Engineers in other countries also need to live. I live in Australia and
    > > worked for a multinational that closed down (and incidently is now
    > > outsourcing
    > > much of its work to India). I have been out of work for a year but will
    > > soon start work for another multinational.
    > >
    > > The issue for me is not that jobs go to other countries or that we

    should
    > > drop our living standards but rather how we innovate and create new
    > > technologies
    > > so that there is work for everyone.

    >
    > I've often heard people in the free trade camp say that the US is more
    > innovative than other places on the globe and that we will come up
    > with some new idea or product that will save us. Sure, it's happened
    > in the past so I suppose there is some precedent. But lately when I
    > hear this it sounds more and more like a matter of religious faith.
    > Why assume that only US engineers can come up with "The Next Big
    > Thing"(TNBT)? The fact is that if vast numbers of US engineers no
    > longer have the opportunity to develop their talents and skills they
    > won't be able to come up with TNBT.
    >
    > It appears that the offshoring is just accelerating. Here are a
    > couple of quotes from an article in EETimes last week:
    >
    > "Morgan Stanley estimates the number of U.S. jobs outsourced to India
    > will double to about 150,000 in the next three years. Analysts predict
    > as many as two million U.S. white-collar jobs such as programmers,
    > software engineers and applications designers will shift to low cost
    > centers by 2014."
    >
    > "Guyer believes as many as 40,000 of IBM's 160,000 U.S. jobs will be
    > transferred overseas by 2005, a figure she says was gathered from
    > phone calls by IBM employees."
    > http://eetimes.com/sys/news/OEG20031223S0008
    >
    > What good is it if US corporations are wildly profitable but keep
    > employing fewer and fewer people in the US? Maybe it will look like
    > GDP is growing at a rapid clip (kind of like it has looked for the
    > last couple of quarters) while very few in the US have decent jobs
    > anymore.


    It make a bit more sense if you view it not as exporting jobs, but as
    exporting managerial process and culture.
    It simply is easier to move the process overseas than improve it. The
    profits are just a pleasant side effect.

    Anyhow they are not employing fewer people, they are employing more. Its
    just not more people in the highly industrialized countries

    >
    > Empires rise and fall and I suspect that even while it seems as though
    > the US is at the top of it's game right now, it's really in the
    > twilight of empire. When you decide as a culture that it is no longer
    > important to actually make things or even _design_ things anymore,
    > what's left? You sell raw materials to other countries and they sell
    > back the goods made from them. Isn't that a lot like being a colony?
    >
    > Tom Joad
     
    David Lightstone, Jan 1, 2004
    #20
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