I have no programming experience. Would you recommend C?

[August Karlstrom]

Barry skrev:

I agree a Pascal like language is the easiest to teach and learn most of
the concepts of programming.

It's a shame Oberon is not one of those Pascal like languages then. ;-)


August

 

[August Karlstrom]

CBFalconer skrev:

No, that just confuses the issue with complications for a newbie.
ISO Pascal is much better for learning.

What makes you believe that?


August

 

[August Karlstrom]

Chris Hills skrev:

Good in theory

....and in practice

but as Oberon is hardly used at all. It is a little
pointless. As least there is a lot of readily available support and
tools for C and to a lesser extent Pascal. This is not the case for
Pascal.

Ie if I took a dozen programmers at random all could help with c or know
where tools and help are, probably half could do the same with Pascal.
I doubt that 90% would even have heard of Oberon. (Or Modula 3)

Agreed.


August

 

[Richard Bos]

Anyone who isn't aware of what the Ivy League is, and who harbors the
misconception that they're "business orientated" schools is in no
position to be passing judgment on what the best academic circles are.

Or is being ironic.

Anyone who thinks that "Ivy League" automatically means excellence on
all subjects, or that if a programming language is used in Ivy League
academe it is therefore a good teaching language, is in no position to
pass judgement on programming subbjects.

Richard

 

[Richard Bos]

Or in other words, "some people have described C as a 'portable assembler'
but personally I disagree with them".

Much nicer way of expressing yourself, don't you think?

Nicer, but not more accurate.

C is provably not a portable assembler. Anyone who claims it is _is_
wrong, as wrong as someone who says that, e.g., a motorcycle is a
portable go-kart.

Richard

 

[Chris Hills]

Or is being ironic.

Anyone who thinks that "Ivy League" automatically means excellence on
all subjects, or that if a programming language is used in Ivy League
academe it is therefore a good teaching language, is in no position to
pass judgement on programming subbjects.

Richard

Why would anyone know about the in's and outs of some forigen education
system. I bet Charlton knows bugger all about the European Universities.

So Charlton what is a Red Brick Uni?

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Chris Hills said:

Why would anyone know about the in's and outs of some forigen education
system. I bet Charlton knows bugger all about the European Universities.

So Charlton what is a Red Brick Uni?

No such thing, Chris. Both UK universities are stone-built.

 

[Flash Gordon]

Richard Heathfield wrote, On 26/01/07 18:30:

Chris Hills said:



No such thing, Chris. Both UK universities are stone-built.

Did you go to one of the great universities, Oxford, Cambridge or Hull?

 

[Chris Hills]

Chris Hills said:



No such thing, Chris. Both UK universities are stone-built.

Of course

 

[Chris Hills]

Richard Heathfield wrote, On 26/01/07 18:30:

Did you go to one of the great universities, Oxford, Cambridge or Hull?

As people at Warwick Uni are fond of saying... there is still only one
Uni In Coventry.

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

CH> Why would anyone know about the in's and outs of some forigen
CH> education system. I bet Charlton knows bugger all about the
CH> European Universities.

CH> So Charlton what is a Red Brick Uni?

Don't know; but I would hope that if I got on a high horse and
dismissed them all offhandedly and incorrectly, someone would step up
and smack me.

Charlton

 

[Malcolm McLean]

Anyone who thinks that "Ivy League" automatically means excellence on
all subjects, or that if a programming language is used in Ivy League
academe it is therefore a good teaching language, is in no position to
pass judgement on programming subbjects.

Seems like I'm really in everyone's bad books on this thread.

However I'm considering trying to introduce Lisp at undergraduate level at
Leeds, because Harvard do it, and I have ambitions to make Leeds University
as good as Harvard.

Maybe that isn't a worthwhile thing to aim for.

 

[Ben Pfaff]

However I'm considering trying to introduce Lisp at undergraduate level at
Leeds, because Harvard do it, and I have ambitions to make Leeds University
as good as Harvard.

Why Harvard? They're not well known as a computer science
school, at least compared to how they're known in other areas.
Generally, lists of the top US computer science programs include
schools such as University of California-Berkeley, Stanford,
Carnegie Mellon, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, etc.,
with Harvard a way farther down the list.

 

[Mark McIntyre]

Why Harvard? They're not well known as a computer science

We brits have absolutely no clue as to which US uni would be good for
CS. Harvard is a top name, so I guess people pick that place much like
you Yanks come to Oxford for stuff we're actually rubbish at.
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Mark McIntyre said:

We brits have absolutely no clue as to which US uni would be good for
CS.

Since DEK and BLP are at Stanford, I presume that's the top spot.

 

[Malcolm McLean]

Why Harvard? They're not well known as a computer science
school, at least compared to how they're known in other areas.
Generally, lists of the top US computer science programs include
schools such as University of California-Berkeley, Stanford,
Carnegie Mellon, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, etc.,
with Harvard a way farther down the list.

Would a young man be rejected for a computer science type course at MIT, and
apply to Harvard with a reasonable expectation of success? What about the
other way round?

Not being American I don't know all the ins and outs. However I know that
Harvard teach Lisp as a first programming language. I think that is true of
some of the others on your list.

 

[Ben Pfaff]

Mark McIntyre said:

Since DEK and BLP are at Stanford, I presume that's the top spot.

That's like saying "Since DMR and a bunch of interns are at AT&T,
I presume that's the best research laboratory."

 

[Ben Pfaff]

Would a young man be rejected for a computer science type course at MIT, and
apply to Harvard with a reasonable expectation of success? What about the
other way round?

I don't have a good answer to that, for undergrad applications.
For graduate programs, I'd generally guess that Harvard has to be
slightly less selective than MIT.

I was never a computer science undergrad, so I know less about
this than I might otherwise. I hope I'm not coming off as
denigrating Harvard. Certainly they have an excellent school
there. It's just a little surprising to hear them described as
*the* school to emulate.

Not being American I don't know all the ins and outs. However I know that
Harvard teach Lisp as a first programming language. I think that is true of
some of the others on your list.

Yes, MIT is well known for it (Scheme actually) and probably some
of the others.

 

[Richard Heathfield]

Ben Pfaff said:

That's like saying "Since DMR and a bunch of interns are at AT&T,
I presume that's the best research laboratory."

Which, from a CS perspective, it quite possibly is.

 

[Charlton Wilbur]

MM> Would a young man be rejected for a computer science type
MM> course at MIT, and apply to Harvard with a reasonable
MM> expectation of success? What about the other way round?

Much depends on why. Generally at Ivy League schools one simply
applies for the undergraduate degree, and selects the degree course
later -- so your young man rejected at Harvard would be rejected in
general, not just for the computer science degree.

Both Harvard and MIT are extremely selective, but they select for
different things; someone who doesn't have the technical education (or
the visible potential thereof) to be accepted at MIT might have other
qualifications that Harvard is looking for. In neither case is
admission entirely objective; it's possible for a borderline candidate
to be accepted or rejected based on things like family history with
the school, athletic accomplishment, or odd hobbies.

Practically speaking, as I understand it, Harvard and MIT allow
cross-enrollment, so you you can be a student at MIT and take classes
at Harvard, or vice versa.

Charlton