I wanna do it the right way...

[Leif K-Brooks]

Not exactly. If you use this example, you have to generate your CSS
dynamically for the page to work AND generate the HTML as well. Why
generate two files when one will do?

Because seperating content from presentation lets you change how every
page in your site looks without having to change every page in your
site. If your boss gets drunk and decides that he wants all headings on
the company site to have a background image of monkeys showing their
middle finger, you can do it in a few minutes if you can find the
required image. And you can change it back the next day when your boss
has sobered up just as easily.

I realize you're using some fancy tool to generate layouts
automatically, but that's pretty pointless. CSS could do pretty much the
same (if I understand your tool right) but be easier to work with, and
easier to maintain.

 

[Mark Parnell]

CSS could do pretty much the
same (if I understand your tool right) but be easier to work with, and
easier to maintain.

And easier for a new designer to pick up when you leave the company.

 

[rf]

And easier for a new designer to pick up when you leave the company.

after you have shown your boss a picture of a monkey with its middle finger
up?

 

[The Doormouse]

I realize you're using some fancy tool to generate layouts
automatically, but that's pretty pointless. CSS could do pretty much the
same (if I understand your tool right) but be easier to work with, and
easier to maintain.

Really?

Your newest client is www.target.com ...
Their site is powered by a database. The categories and number of items
listed are subject to change several times a day - and will.

Tables make sense for them because the entire layout is based on tabular
data.

The Doormouse

 

[rf]

Your newest client is www.target.com ...

Have you actually looked at that site? The code is *atrocious*.

<quote>
<font color="#FFFFFF" class="tiny">
</quote>
and that is one of the good bits

 

[The Doormouse]

Have you actually looked at that site? The code is *atrocious*.

<quote>
<font color="#FFFFFF" class="tiny">
</quote>
and that is one of the good bits

Yes, it is even worse than you mention ... the CSS specifies the font
size in points for the menu items. There is no attempt at validation of
anything, AFAIK. It's horrible.

That client has a 'design' which relies heavily on a database for its
presentation. It is a useful example of one reason why someone would want
to use tables with CSS instead of pure CSS.

If you suddenly had this client dumped in your lap, would you convert the
site to CSS? Probably not - CSS is already being used, and the rest of
the site is being generated in pieces by the code that accesses their
product database.

The Doormouse

 

[rf]

The Doormouse wrote

Yes, it is even worse than you mention ...

That client has a 'design' which relies heavily on a database for its
presentation. It is a useful example of one reason why someone would want
to use tables with CSS instead of pure CSS.

You do have a valid point here. Tables (for layout) are a touch more
resilient than CSS, expecially where the content is beyond the control of
the author. Who knows *what* those marketing people will stick in their
database tomorow.

If you suddenly had this client dumped in your lap,

I would run very very fast very very far away.

would you convert the
site to CSS? Probably not - CSS is already being used, and the rest of
the site is being generated in pieces by the code that accesses their
product database.

And I shudder to think what those pieces of server side code look like

 

[Frogleg]

Davmagic, Neal, Tobby and Mark.

Many thanks guys.

I know that my grammar sux, but while I've read some posts here, I
understand, that many don't understand a simple question.

Few posts below, Frogleg was asking for some links to well designed web
pages.

Well, he went purple on his face and while two dozen posts suggested a
total lack of understanding a very simple question, some good guys
posted some answers.

I went all purple (and announced that my all-caps was *intended* to be
shouting) after asking and re-asking a simple question that was, as
you've seen with yours, repeatedly non-answered.

You need to craft a single question very clearly. Do not introduce
more than one concept/topic/idea, as extras will stimulate different
areas in some brains, and your thread may zing off on a long journey
to, say, bicycle racing.

The group is alt.html. Ask any nuts & bolts html 'how to' question,
and you'll get a fast and correct answer. If you ask about html
references or tutorials, you'll get good links. These people really
know their stuff.

If you mention using Flash or FrontPage or frames, they will fall upon
you and devour you.

Now what was your question again?

 

[Andy Dingley]

Not exactly. If you use this example, you have to generate your CSS
dynamically for the page to work AND generate the HTML as well.

Why would I need to dynamically generate CSS ? If you "need" to do
this, then chances are that you've got some excessive use of absolute
positioning going on.

I have generated CSS dynamically. I think I've done it about three
times in five years.

Why generate two files when one will do?

Because I hate my servers and I want them to suffer.

 

[rf]

Frogleg wrote

You need to craft a single question very clearly. Do not introduce
more than one concept/topic/idea, as extras will stimulate different
areas in some brains, and your thread may zing off on a long journey
to, say, bicycle racing.

Bloody silly way to get from here to over there!

Why not just catch the bus, you'll get there much faster and in far more
comfort and you will still have enough stamina left over to be able to stand
at the bar for that all important first rum&coke.

 

[Andy Dingley]

Your newest client is www.target.com ...

Nasty !

Their site is powered by a database.

So bite my relational ass.

The categories and number of items
listed are subject to change several times a day - and will.

So what ? We're not intererested in categories here, we're interested
in gridding the page. What you put _in_ them can change, but you
(probably) won't change the gridding of the layout very frequently.

Tables make sense for them because the entire layout is based on tabular
data.

They do indeed have tabular data - lots of little ones, where they
list "Five things from the Foobar department". You might even squeeze
these down to lists, but a table certainly isn't wrong for displaying
them.

However that isn't page layout - for doing the layout of the whole
page, even that page, tables are still wrong.

 

[Matrix]

I went all purple (and announced that my all-caps was *intended* to be
shouting) after asking and re-asking a simple question that was, as
you've seen with yours, repeatedly non-answered.

Some just love to chat here... that's it! ;-P

You need to craft a single question very clearly. Do not introduce
more than one concept/topic/idea, as extras will stimulate different
areas in some brains, and your thread may zing off on a long journey
to, say, bicycle racing.

I'm aware of that.

The group is alt.html. Ask any nuts & bolts html 'how to' question,
and you'll get a fast and correct answer. If you ask about html
references or tutorials, you'll get good links. These people really
know their stuff.

I've noticed some guys are brilliant.

If you mention using Flash or FrontPage or frames, they will fall upon
you and devour you.

I *was* using FP and lately I've use Adobe Photoshop CS and I love the
speed my pages were loading.

I'm not bad with Adobe and my concept is to master Adobe (I love mouse
over effects and some SMALL Flash extras if they can be small. I've
heard they CAN be small but I'm not a great fan of Flash.

I've been through frames and I hate them.

My concept is, the page is an ad. Have to be simple, functional
and... beautiful if desired.

I can make it beautiful but I have to learn css, tables and the way to
marry both of them to achieve the goal.

What I hate is the page made for 800x600 and in 1024 looks smaller.

IMHO it's a wastage of bandwidth, time and whole effort.

Now what was your question again?

Where is the money!?

The most often asked and the most often ignored the oldest question.

 

[Whitecrest]

You do have a valid point here. Tables (for layout) are a touch more
resilient than CSS, expecially where the content is beyond the control of
the author. Who knows *what* those marketing people will stick in their
database tomorow.

Ok, the site works on IE and Mozilla and does not require javascript.
So, the overall code sucks, and they use tables, so what. The
visitor doesn't care, the only people that care are the people in
this forum. And I would guess the most of us have never stepped foot
in a target (Personally, I'm a walmart kind of guy). The site gives
the average TARGET shopper everything they want. (The Key words are
"TARGET shopper")

 

[The Doormouse]

Why would I need to dynamically generate CSS ? If you "need" to do
this, then chances are that you've got some excessive use of absolute
positioning going on.

Correct!

The Doormouse

 

[The Doormouse]

They do indeed have tabular data - lots of little ones, where they
list "Five things from the Foobar department". You might even squeeze
these down to lists, but a table certainly isn't wrong for displaying
them.

Correct again! Tables are good for what this client wants done.

However that isn't page layout - for doing the layout of the whole
page, even that page, tables are still wrong.

The CSS alternative - easier or harder? If I shrink the page, will it
break? CSS has excellent uses, but laying out this type of page is not
one of them.

The Doormouse

 

[Uncle Pirate]

And easier for a new designer to pick up when you leave the company.

Careful Mark, that would be an argument AGAINST doing things the right
way. Job security.

I once took over a programming job after the previous programmer had
demanded some outrageous amount of money. All I had was an executable
to start with. Disassembled, and spent weeks separating the data from
the code. Rather than doing things right with a data section and a code
section, he had sprinkled the data throughout the code. That's been
years ago and the last time I've worked with assembly.

--
Stan McCann "Uncle Pirate"
Webmaster/Computer Center Manager, NMSU at Alamogordo
Cooordinator, Tularosa Basin Chapter, ABATE of NM AMA#758681
'94 1500 Vulcan (now wrecked) http://surecann.com/Dcp_2068c.jpg
A zest for living must include a willingness to die. - R.A. Heinlein

 

[Blinky the Shark]

I went all purple (and announced that my all-caps was *intended* to be
shouting) after asking and re-asking a simple question that was, as
you've seen with yours, repeatedly non-answered.

You need to craft a single question very clearly. Do not introduce
more than one concept/topic/idea, as extras will stimulate different
areas in some brains, and your thread may zing off on a long journey
to, say, bicycle racing.

The group is alt.html. Ask any nuts & bolts html 'how to' question,
and you'll get a fast and correct answer. If you ask about html
references or tutorials, you'll get good links. These people really
know their stuff.

If you mention using Flash or FrontPage or frames, they will fall upon
you and devour you.

Now what was your question again?

Do you know of any good bicycling sites made with tables for layout of
nontabular data and done with FrontPage? Or just any good bicycling
sites? Or a good place to buy nuts & bolts?

 

[Neal]

Frogleg wrote


Bloody silly way to get from here to over there!

Why not just catch the bus, you'll get there much faster and in far more
comfort and you will still have enough stamina left over to be able to
stand
at the bar for that all important first rum&coke.

Buses have gotten too expensive. Bring back the rickshaw!

 

[Andy Dingley]

Correct!

Now you've crossed the border from your usual irritatingly patronising
to being plain stupid.

How simply can I put this ? Absolute positioning - bad idea and
nearly always unneccessary. It's not that I'm surprised you find
dynamic CSS to be useful, it's that what you're using it for is wrong.


And to think, I pulled you out of the @att.* killfile especially.

 

[The Doormouse]

Now you've crossed the border from your usual irritatingly patronising
to being plain stupid.

I am always convinced of the validity of arguments made by those who
resort to Ad Hominem attacks so quickly.

How simply can I put this ? Absolute positioning - bad idea and
nearly always unneccessary. It's not that I'm surprised you find
dynamic CSS to be useful, it's that what you're using it for is wrong.

I am not using it, nor recommending it.

We should talk more often - I rarely encounter your type of person
outside of a work environment.

And to think, I pulled you out of the @att.* killfile especially.

Poor baby!

The Doormouse