Is the end of HTML as we know it?

[Tim Streater]

Neither XHTML nor JavaScript are required to design websites nowadays.

OK, so how do I do data validation based on user input? How do I make
the content of a <select> vary depending on the user's choice in another
<select> ??

 

[1001 Webs]

OK, so how do I do data validation based on user input? How do I make
the content of a <select> vary depending on the user's choice in another
<select> ??

http://search.techrepublic.com.com/search/validation.html

 

[Andy Dingley]

OK, so how do I do data validation based on user input?

It's not a _requirement_. You can still do it purely server-side,
which you ought to support as a fallback anyway for both security and
accessibility reasons.

 

[Tim Streater]

It's not a _requirement_. You can still do it purely server-side,
which you ought to support as a fallback anyway for both security and
accessibility reasons.

Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
<select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.

Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
subset of values.

My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.

Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
is not required to design websites these days".

 

[1001 Webs]

Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
<select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.

Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
subset of values.

My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.

Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
is not required to design websites these days".

And why do you have to use Javascript?
Client-side support for Javascript, as it happens with CSS
implementation, is inconsistent across browsers. Some browsers support
scripts very well and others bits and pieces or even nothing at all.
Furthermore, many people turns off Javascript, for security issues.
And hackers can disable your client-side checking in order to feed you
bad data. If you rely solely on client-side checking, you're bound to
get hacked eventually.

One big advantage to server-side validation is that you can use PHP,
which has a wide variety of functions and language features to help
you chop and change strings, check numbers are within ranges, and so
on.
If you use PHP, validation tasks are significantly simplified by the
PEAR Validate class, which provides ready-made methods for common user
validation tasks.
Furthermore, you can use PHP to connect to a database to check whether
a username exists, for example, which is simply impossible using
client-side scripting.

This download lists the more useful PHP validation tools and also
explains how you can use them to increase the overall security of your
Web applications.
http://downloads.techrepublic.com.com/download.aspx?docid=178272

Also read:
http://www.hudzilla.org/phpbook/read.php/7_7_3

 

[Jerry Stuckle]

Of more importance, actually, is the second question I asked, about
modifying one <select> based on the results of another. In some cases I
use Javascript all by itself, when the contents of the select are
limited to a few values, and if, for example, the user choosing "A" in
<select> 1 means they must be prevented from choosing "B" in <select> 2.

Where I really need to restrict the contents of another <select> I put
it in an iFrame, which is passed the results of <select> 1 and then
displays <select> 2. I still have to use javaScript to ensure that the
iFrame <select> is passed a useful parameter and so displays right
subset of values.

My app simply doesn't scale without this sort of technique.

Which is why I complain when I see blanket statements like "JavaScript
is not required to design websites these days".

Tim,

You don't even need to use an iframe to do it. Works fine without one.

--
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
(e-mail address removed)
==================

 

[1001 Webs]

Tim,

You don't even need to use an iframe to do it. Works fine without one.

Oh, shut the flunk up, really !!!
How would you know?
Can't you stop for a second making a fool yourself ???

What a disgusting pathetic CRIMINAL troll you are...

Tell us moron, how would you do it?
It's an straight question, just paste the code here.

 

[Kevin]

I think you are a bit confused here.
As is often misunderstood by the layperson, a Web Developer does not
always create graphics, logos, or identity, or create written, video,
or audio content for a website, however some do.
Web Designers, Web Copy Editors and Web Content Creators are different
from Web Developers.

A web developer is a software developer or software engineer who is
specifically engaged in the development of World Wide Web
applications, or distributed network applications that are run over
the HTTP protocol from a web server to a web browser.

Although many web developers are also skilled in web design,
information architecture, usability engineering, web content
management systems, web server administration, and search engine
optimization, many of them are not, and the final result are superbly
coded sites that are horribly looking, never show up in search engines
and lack any real-world useful functionality.


Fine argument.
And you can go get a college degree in programming without even taking
a graphic arts course at all.


Neither XHTML nor JavaScript are required to design websites nowadays.
The International Standards, specially when it comes to CSS
implementation across different browsers, are anything but Standards.

And by that same argument, if you want to promote yourself as a web
designer, you should have an extensive Graphic Design background


CSS has been out for 11 years now, but real implementation of CSS in
web design, hasn't caught on until recent years, due to its horrendous
implementation.


Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
themselves as web designers, ever.
They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
level.


A Web page consists of information for which the Web site is developed
and in that sense, a website might be compared to a book, where each
page of the book is a web page.

There are many basic design concerns such as:
* The content: The substance, and information on the site should
be relevant to the site and should target the area of the public that
the website is concerned with.
* The usability: The site should be user-friendly, with the
interface and navigation simple and reliable.
* The appearance: The graphics and text should include a single
style that flows throughout, to show consistency. The style should be
professional, appealing and relevant.
* The visibility: The site must also be easy to find via most, if
not all, major search engines and advertisement media.

Many web developers who call themselves also web designers fail to
acknowledge these basic design aspects.
The result is that pages created by web designers rank usually higher
than pages created by web developers who lack understanding and
training in the field of Graphic Design.

Here is a definition for you of Web design. I am sure even you will
agree that graphic artists in general are not trained in the languages
and technologies needed to do the web design job especially when it
comes to Dynamic pages as defined below. (By the way the definition is
from wikipedia)

Web design is a process of conceptualization, planning, modeling, and
execution of electronic media content delivery via Internet in the
form of Markup language suitable for interpretation by Web browser and
display as Graphical user interface (GUI).

The intent of web design is to create a web site -- a collection of
electronic files that reside on a web server/servers and present
content and interactive features/interfaces to the end user in form of
Web pages once requested. Such elements as text, bit-mapped images
(GIFs, JPEGs, PNGs), forms can be placed on the page using HTML/XHTML/
XML tags. Displaying more complex media (vector graphics, animations,
videos, sounds) requires plug-ins such as Flash, QuickTime, Java run-
time environment, etc. Plug-ins are also embedded into web page by
using HTML/XHTML tags.

Improvements in browsers' compliance with W3C standards prompted a
widespread acceptance and usage of XHTML/XML in conjunction with
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to position and manipulate web page
elements and objects. Latest standards and proposals aim at leading to
browsers' ability to deliver a wide variety of media and accessibility
options to the client possibly without employing plug-ins.

Typically web pages are classified as static or dynamic.

Static pages don't change content and layout with every request unless
a human (web master/programmer) manually updates the page.

Dynamic pages adapt their content and/or appearance depending on end-
user's input/interaction or changes in the computing environment
(user, time, database modifications, etc.) Content can be changed on
the client side (end-user's computer) by using client-side scripting
languages (JavaScript, JScript, Actionscript, etc.) to alter DOM
elements (DHTML). Dynamic content is often compiled on the server
utilizing server-side scripting languages (Perl, PHP, ASP, JSP,
ColdFusion, etc.). Both approaches are usually used in complex
applications.

With growing specialization within communication design and
information technology fields, there is a strong tendency to draw a
clear line between web design and web development.


Now it was stated earlier in this post that

"Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
themselves as web designers, ever.
They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
level."

It is also true that you can get a bachelor of Science Degree in
Graphic Design and not even have a class in HTML or CSS for that
matter. With that being said Graphic Artists should never advertise
themselves as web designers as they just do not have the skills to do
the job on a professional level.

Graphic Artists in general are not trained to work with the web markup
languages, scripting language, programming languages, frameworks or
even styles.

In reality you touched on it a bit earlier when you said Developers
can write a page that is code perfect but looks ugly. In reality a
graphic artist might be able to create a pretty picture of a web
layout but be totally clueless on how to properly code it to be a
functional website. A web designer indicates a level of coding skills
not required of a graphic artist. For a web designer the appearance
of a site to others does not matter. What one person perceives as ugly
might be exactly what the customer is asking for. It may in fact go
against multiple graphic arts rules or concepts such as the rule of
thirds for example.

 

[Travis Newbury]

read more »

Man, by the time I got to the end of this post I completely forgot
what the hell we were talking about....

 

[Bone Ur]

Well bust mah britches and call me cheeky, on Tue, 13 Nov 2007 17:33:13 GMT
Travis Newbury scribed:

Man, by the time I got to the end of this post I completely forgot
what the hell we were talking about....

The mind is the second thing to go.

 

[1001 Webs]

Here is a definition for you of Web design. I am sure even you will
agree that graphic artists in general are not trained in the languages
and technologies needed to do the web design job especially when it
comes to Dynamic pages as defined below. (By the way the definition is
from wikipedia)

Web design is a process of conceptualization, planning, modeling, and
execution of electronic media content delivery via Internet in the
form of Markup language suitable for interpretation by Web browser and
display as Graphical user interface (GUI).

The intent of web design is to create a web site -- a collection of
electronic files that reside on a web server/servers and present
content and interactive features/interfaces to the end user in form of
Web pages once requested. Such elements as text, bit-mapped images
(GIFs, JPEGs, PNGs), forms can be placed on the page using HTML/XHTML/
XML tags. Displaying more complex media (vector graphics, animations,
videos, sounds) requires plug-ins such as Flash, QuickTime, Java run-
time environment, etc. Plug-ins are also embedded into web page by
using HTML/XHTML tags.

Improvements in browsers' compliance with W3C standards prompted a
widespread acceptance and usage of XHTML/XML in conjunction with
Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) to position and manipulate web page
elements and objects. Latest standards and proposals aim at leading to
browsers' ability to deliver a wide variety of media and accessibility
options to the client possibly without employing plug-ins.

Typically web pages are classified as static or dynamic.

Static pages don't change content and layout with every request unless
a human (web master/programmer) manually updates the page.

Dynamic pages adapt their content and/or appearance depending on end-
user's input/interaction or changes in the computing environment
(user, time, database modifications, etc.) Content can be changed on
the client side (end-user's computer) by using client-side scripting
languages (JavaScript, JScript, Actionscript, etc.) to alter DOM
elements (DHTML). Dynamic content is often compiled on the server
utilizing server-side scripting languages (Perl, PHP, ASP, JSP,
ColdFusion, etc.). Both approaches are usually used in complex
applications.

With growing specialization within communication design and
information technology fields, there is a strong tendency to draw a
clear line between web design and web development.

Now it was stated earlier in this post that

"Anyone who is unable to understand and put into practice the most
basic principles of Graphic Design should not be advertising
themselves as web designers, ever.
They just do not have the skills to do the job on a professional
level."

It is also true that you can get a bachelor of Science Degree in
Graphic Design and not even have a class in HTML or CSS for that
matter. With that being said Graphic Artists should never advertise
themselves as web designers as they just do not have the skills to do
the job on a professional level.

Graphic Artists in general are not trained to work with the web markup
languages, scripting language, programming languages, frameworks or
even styles.

In reality you touched on it a bit earlier when you said Developers
can write a page that is code perfect but looks ugly. In reality a
graphic artist might be able to create a pretty picture of a web
layout but be totally clueless on how to properly code it to be a
functional website. A web designer indicates a level of coding skills
not required of a graphic artist. For a web designer the appearance
of a site to others does not matter. What one person perceives as ugly
might be exactly what the customer is asking for. It may in fact go
against multiple graphic arts rules or concepts such as the rule of
thirds for example.

Agreed on about everything you said.

Since we agree that both designers and developers are equally
important, shouldn't we all making that point to potential customers
instead of engaging on silly fights among ourselves?

That way, Web Developers, Web Designers and even Web Copy Editors and
Web Content Creators will all get recognition from those customers,
i.e., work.

 

[runner7]

ROFLMAO!

What does ROFLMAO mean?

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

What does ROFLMAO mean?

Amazing how many folks that use Google for Usenet never think to use it
to find out about something!

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ROFLMAO&btnG=Google+Search
ROFLMAO - Google Search

 

[Sherman Pendley]

What does ROFLMAO mean?

Rolling On the Floor, Laughing My Ass Off.

sherm--

 

[DocuMaker]

ROFLMAO = Rolling On Floor, Laughing My Ass Off