Java IDEs *Le sigh*

[Oliver Wong]

Annoying? I find this view managing system very useful for some
applications. In Eclipse, you can adjust sizes, or move a view somewhere
else, but you never have to position it yourself. You may find it
irritating to have less control, but I would find it cumbersome to
position all those windows by hand.

I like the perspectives as well. I find I'm not interested in the same
views when debugging as I am when programmer as I am when synchronizing with
CVS as I am when editing XML documents as I am when profiling my
application. I like how I can arrange the windows the way I like for each
task, and then save those arrangements to quickly switch between them.

But to each his/her own, I guess.

- Oliver

 

[Oliver Wong]

Intuitive as in easy to pick up.

Intuitive IDEs have features like Dynamic Help, collapsible
toolbars/panes, etc.

I'm not sure why "collapsible toolbar/panes" would be intuitive, but
Eclipse has those (click on the button that looks the "minimize" icon from
Windows). Eclipse has dynamic help too, but I've never had to really use it
(that's how intuitive Eclipse is! ... for me, anyway).

in the likes of VS, Sun's IDE, Netbeans,
and JDeveloper.

I've only used Eclipse and VS. I don't like how, when I tell VS in debug
more to "run to this line", it runs right past it and keeps going. That
wasn't very intuitive (as in easy to pick up) behaviour to me. I don't like
how when I click on a method call and say "Show me where this method is
declared", it tells me that the method isn't declared anywhere (when I know
it is).

Maybe my install of VS was buggy or something, but my experience of VS
was that it was not very intuitive. I mention this not to say "You're wrong,
VS is bad, Eclipse is good", but to point out that people's experiences with
IDEs may not be universal. So when you say "Look at VS as an example of
intuitive", people might get the wrong idea.

I can see how the Perspective system (or
view system as some call it) would be intuitive for some; but
I'm not *that* much of a noob that I need everything to be
sorted out in such a way. There is always a 2 second pause
while the JVM garbage collects and/or Eclipse switches
perspectives, it seems. And that's annoying.

On my machine (Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 1 GB RAM), there's a noticeable delay
when switching perspectives, but it's less than 1 second. I'm guessing you
might get better performance out of Eclipse if you had more RAM.

[...]

Also, for the person who was talking about J2EE features and what-
not. My instructors demand that we properly document our projects;
design documentation, implementation, code comments, and end-
user documentation. That is why I like the UML features. It comes
in handy for putting some aspects of an application in a more visual
term; and I routinely round-trip code/etc. and use those in my docs.

Not sure if that person was me, but I mentioned "forget about J2EE for
now" because every tutorial I've seen on J2EE assumes you've already
"mastered" J2SE. Note that "writing documentation", "implementation", "code
comments" and "end-user documentations" are concepts that exist in J2SE as
well. I've never actually touched J2EE, but I write documentation, I
implement stuff, I comment my code, and I provide documentation to the end
user. I use UML too. That's not what J2EE is about. J2EE, as far as I can
tell, is about multi-tiered web services.

- Oliver

 

[David Segall]

Much the same way VS has MS stuff in it, I suppose. But you don't have
to use it, and some of it is redistributable anyway. But there is no
prob to make non-Oracle-ish apps.

Somewhat off-topic for this thread but can you tell me if Oracle SQL
Developer
<http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/database/sql_developer/index.html>
can be used with non-Oracle databases. Although the database tools
that come with NetBeans and the superior tools included in Java Studio
Creator are good they fall far short of MS Access.

 

[Chris Smith]

I like the perspectives as well. I find I'm not interested in the same
views when debugging as I am when programmer as I am when synchronizing with
CVS as I am when editing XML documents as I am when profiling my
application. I like how I can arrange the windows the way I like for each
task, and then save those arrangements to quickly switch between them.

But to each his/her own, I guess.

I agree. However, I don't understand why it is not possible to create
one's own perspectives, rename perspectives, etc. without writing a
plugin.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Jon Martin Solaas]

Somewhat off-topic for this thread but can you tell me if Oracle SQL
Developer
<http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/database/sql_developer/index.html>
can be used with non-Oracle databases. Although the database tools
that come with NetBeans and the superior tools included in Java Studio
Creator are good they fall far short of MS Access.

Don't think so. You may have some more luck with the sql-stuff in
JDeveloper.

I use Aqua Data Studio, it's java and connects to fairly many different
databases via jdbc.

 

[Oliver Wong]

I don't understand why it is not possible to create
one's own perspectives, rename perspectives, etc. without writing a
plugin.

Window -> Save Perspective As ...

- Oliver

 

[Oliver Wong]

Another example is the little dance you have to do when you want to debug
something -- what the hell are those things you create called ? (The ones
in
the drop list from the debug icon)

Are you thinking of "Run configurations"? You get to specify the command
line arguments passed to your program and the JVM in those things, as well
as the "working directory", which JRE to use, the classpath, and environment
variables. It's a pretty natural and useful concept to me. For example,
given the same project, I can define multiple entry points (i.e. run it as
an application or an applet? Run the "public static void main(String[]
args)" method in class Foo or class Bar?), with different command line
arguments, such as paths to resource files, or amount of RAM the JVM should
allocate, etc.

Perhaps there are various "ways of thinking", and Eclipse happens to be
designed for people who think the same way I do.

- Oliver

 

[Nate the Capricious]

I've only used Eclipse and VS. I don't like how, when I tell VS in debug

more to "run to this line", it runs right past it and keeps going. That
wasn't very intuitive (as in easy to pick up) behaviour to me. I don't like
how when I click on a method call and say "Show me where this method is
declared", it tells me that the method isn't declared anywhere (when I know
it is). "

I was referring to how you can minimize it and have it pop up when you
put
the mouse over it.

I've only used Eclipse and VS. I don't like how, when I tell VS in debug
more to "run to this line", it runs right past it and keeps going. That
wasn't very intuitive (as in easy to pick up) behaviour to me. I don't like
how when I click on a method call and say "Show me where this method is
declared", it tells me that the method isn't declared anywhere (when I know
it is). "

I don't like how, when I want to debug an application you have to
switch to a
different perspective. Or to brose a CVS repository. Or doing other
things
for which there are dedicated perspectives in Eclipse. No, I don't
think I
should have to spend over an hour putting windows where I want them and
creating custom perspectives; when other IDEs have all these features
integrated into the main user interface. Furthermore, these IDEs are
written
in Java; so when it auto-switches things around... well... Coffee
break.

Maybe my install of VS was buggy or something, but my experience of VS
was that it was not very intuitive. I mention this not to say "You're wrong,
VS is bad, Eclipse is good", but to point out that people's experiences with
IDEs may not be universal. So when you say "Look at VS as an example of
intuitive", people might get the wrong idea."

I don't see how people may get the wrong idea. I didn't come here to
start
any flame war or arguments, and certainly aren't a supporter of those.
I'm
not the only one who thinks VS is an intuitive development environment.
Have
you tried Emacs? Or Borland's IDEs (especially when they had CUA
shortcuts).
I'm sure you've tried Eclipse, as you've stated.

On my machine (Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 1 GB RAM), there's a noticeable delay
when switching perspectives, but it's less than 1 second. I'm guessing you
might get better performance out of Eclipse if you had more RAM."

Awesome, so I should spend $$ upgrading my RAM to use a free IDE. The
same
way people recommended I spend $$ on plug-ins to make this free IDE
useful?

Not sure if that person was me, but I mentioned "forget about J2EE for
now" because every tutorial I've seen on J2EE assumes you've already
"mastered" J2SE. Note that "writing documentation", "implementation", "code
comments" and "end-user documentations" are concepts that exist in J2SE as
well. I've never actually touched J2EE, but I write documentation, I
implement stuff, I comment my code, and I provide documentation to the end
user. I use UML too. That's not what J2EE is about. J2EE, as far as I can
tell, is about multi-tiered web services."

It really doesn't matter, because Eclipse doesn't even have these
features.
And if it does they are of marginal usefulness. I wasn't arguing what
J2EE was,
but you'll be hard pressed to find a tool directed at J2SE developers
with
features like UML diagramming, reverse engineering, et cetera.
The J2EE tools are useless, unless you do all of your development at
the code
level (or almost all of it).

How come all of these features that are developed for Eclipse that are
worth
a darn are all being sold (MyEclipseIDE, etc.). Seems a bit like a
beta-test
stepping stone than something meant to be used as is. How many
developers
do you know that are using Eclipse and only its free plug-ins, as
opposed to some
payware like MyEclipse IDE or some of the other commercial IDEs based
on it?

Don't be so defensive/offensive.


Nate

 

[Oliver Wong]

I don't like how, when I want to debug an application you have to
switch to a
different perspective. Or to brose a CVS repository. Or doing other
things
for which there are dedicated perspectives in Eclipse. No, I don't
think I
should have to spend over an hour putting windows where I want them and
creating custom perspectives; when other IDEs have all these features
integrated into the main user interface. Furthermore, these IDEs are
written
in Java; so when it auto-switches things around... well... Coffee
break.

Your coffee breaks last 2 seconds? Rough working environment you've got
there. =P

I don't see how people may get the wrong idea. I didn't come here to
start
any flame war or arguments, and certainly aren't a supporter of those.
I'm
not the only one who thinks VS is an intuitive development environment.

I think you misunderstood the point I was getting at. When you open a C#
project in Visual Studio 2006, right click on a method, and choose "Show me
where this method is declared", did VS2006 lie to you and tell you "It
wasn't declared anywhere?" There are two possible ways you could answer
this, and here's my responses to those answers:

(*) Yes, it lied to me.

Then why do you like VS2006?

(*) No, it actually showed me where the method was declared.

Okay, so like I said, your experience is different from mine. Meaning, what
you saw when you clicked on certain buttons or menu options differed from
what I saw when I clicked on those same buttons and menu options. In other
words, given a button or menu option, you do NOT know what someone will
experience upon clicking on those widgets.

So when someone asks you "How should I design my IDE to make it as intutive
as possible?" the answer "Take a look at Visual Studio 2006" is a bad one,
because you are probably assuming that the user's experience with Visual
Studio 2006 will be identical to yours. That is, when you asked Visual
Studio 2006 to perform action A, it actually DID perform action A. And
you're thinking "I wanted to perform action A, I asked it to perform action
A, and it did. How could anything be more intuitve than that?" Whereas
another user might have gone through the thought process "I wanted to
perform action A, I asked it to perform action A, and nothing happened. No
error message or anything. What am I supposed to do now? Gee, this isn't
very intuitive."

So what should you do instead of giving the answer "Take a look at Visual
Studio 2006?" Cite specific experiences you've had with VS2K6 that you found
intuitive. E.g. "When I wanted to compile, I felt in my gut that F5 should
cause a compile, so I pressed F5, and lo and behold, it did compile! And I
didn't have to look that up or anything". Obviously, that's not what I
expect you to say, but I have no idea what you would say, since I have no
idea what you consider intuitive. I'd like to know what you find intuitive.
So I'm asking you now: how should an intuitive IDE behave?

Depending on your answers, this might yield yet other IDE recommendations.

Have
you tried Emacs?

Briefly. It didn't seem as good as jEdit, and I wasn't particularly
interested in looking for a replacement for jEdit, so after a brief
examination (on the order of seconds or minutes), I switched back.

Or Borland's IDEs (especially when they had CUA
shortcuts).

A long time ago. Borland Turbo Visual C++ 3.5 or something like that. It
was okay. Eclipse didn't exist at the time, so it was the best I had seen
yet, but definitely not good enough to get me as enthusiastic about it as I
am with Eclipse. Of course, back then, I wasn't really aware of the whole
Open Source movement, so I had very little reason to get enthusiastic about
any piece of software at all. There was no "community" feeling, or a sense
of contributing to a worthwhile cause.

I'm sure you've tried Eclipse, as you've stated.
Yup.


Awesome, so I should spend $$ upgrading my RAM to use a free IDE.

If you want to eliminate the delay you're experiencing in Eclipse and
you have the spare cash, sure. I don't pretend to know your financial
situation better than you, so I will not say you "should" do anything. I was
just giving you potentially useful information, to give you more freedom of
choice of actions. If you had not known, you might have incorrectly assumed
that Eclipse is inherently slow, and that everyone else in the world also
experiences the same 2 second delay that you do, and that they merely
tolerate it. I'm just letting you know it isn't so. (Recall my comments
about the non-universality of experiences that people have with their IDEs
above).

The
same
way people recommended I spend $$ on plug-ins to make this free IDE
useful?

I'm not sure if it's the same "way". If you want a general life
philosophy, I recommend you consider every possible action that you could
undertake, and always choose the optimal one. So if you're in a situation
where the optimal action is to spend money on plugins, then do so. If
there's a better action, do that better one instead.

It really doesn't matter, because Eclipse doesn't even have these
features.

I must have misunderstood you. When you wrote:

<quote>
Also, for the person who was talking about J2EE features and what-
not. My instructors demand that we properly document our projects;
design documentation, implementation, code comments, and end-
user documentation. That is why I like the UML features. It comes
in handy for putting some aspects of an application in a more visual
term; and I routinely round-trip code/etc. and use those in my docs.
</quote>

I had assumed you were implying "I *WANT* J2EE features, because my
instructor demands that we properly document our projects, etc."

I was just letting you know that "J2EE features" and "documenting our
projects" are two unrelated concepts. that is, you can document your project
without ever using a "J2EE feature".

And if it does they are of marginal usefulness. I wasn't arguing what
J2EE was,
but you'll be hard pressed to find a tool directed at J2SE developers
with
features like UML diagramming, reverse engineering, et cetera.

I'm not sure why you would say this. Personally, I use Visio for my UML
diagramming, and I don't see why anyone would consider Visio to be "more
directed at" J2EE developers than J2SE developers. For reverse engineer, I
use JAD and Eclipse; again, these are just as much "J2SE tools" as they are
"J2EE tools".

The J2EE tools are useless, unless you do all of your development at
the code
level (or almost all of it).

I couldn't say from personal experience, but I'd be surprised. You use
XSDs in J2EE, right? I saw a coworker use some sort of drag and drop tool
for messing around with XSD files.

How come all of these features that are developed for Eclipse that are
worth
a darn are all being sold (MyEclipseIDE, etc.). Seems a bit like a
beta-test
stepping stone than something meant to be used as is. How many
developers
do you know that are using Eclipse and only its free plug-ins, as
opposed to some
payware like MyEclipse IDE or some of the other commercial IDEs based
on it?

All the Eclipse plugins I use at work and at home are free.

Don't be so defensive/offensive.

I didn't intend to be. Sorry if you took it that way.

- Oliver

 

[Chris Smith]

Window -> Save Perspective As ...

- Oliver

Hmm... ya learn something new every day. Thanks!

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way To Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

How many developers do you know that are using Eclipse and
only its free plug-ins, as opposed to some payware like MyEclipse
IDE or some of the other commercial IDEs based on it?

Me, for one.

 

[Michael Powe]

Nate> But I've been trying to get into Java, so I'm looking for a
Nate> nice IDE and I've been having a few problems finding one.

Nate> I generally don't like applications that don't *install*,
Nate> but I downloaded Eclipse anyways. It sounded very nice,
Nate> especially since it has C/C++ development tools. Too bad
Nate> they're only for GCC (I use Microsoft AND Borland compilers,
Nate> but not the GCC). O well.

Yes, it's not an IDE it's a *platform*. Sheesh.

Nate> NetBeans is slow and clunky. And believe it or not, for a
Nate> beginner, those refactorings are important (if you actually
Nate> understand them) because you tend to make more coding
Nate> mistakes that need to be undone. Well NetBeans sucks in
Nate> that department compared to Eclipse. Then again Eclipse is
Nate> more like Emacs on Windows.

I don't know where "slow and clunky" comes from. I use it on both
windows and linux (1.7Ghz and 950Mhz machines, respectively) with
decent amounts of RAM and it works great.

What I like about NB 5.0:

* updates imports when you add new objects or classes to your code
* puts try/catch blocks around lines that throw exceptions
* generates getters/setters for private/protected variables AND
* substitutes the getters/setters for their variables throughout the
package AND
* will change access from public to private for variables when you
create the accessors, if you wish
* generates JUnit tests for the package
* refactoring, of course, although I don't use this too much except
for the above
* when you add external libraries to a project, as part of the build
process it creates a lib directory in the distribution folder and
puts a copy of the libraries there and updates the classpath in the
jar manifest
* actually has a useful debugger (only one that i've ever used that i
actually have been able to track down bugs!)
* autocomment -- God's own Gift to those who actually prepare Javadoc,
an interface for writing and formatting the documentation -- even
has an 'autocomplete' button to create all the parameter, throws and
return tags for methods and constructors
* Javascript and CSS support for web projects, including code
completion for CSS
* builtin CVS support that is designed to commit the whole project --
I save on the Windows box and update/co on the linux box and I'm
ready to go.
* bean tag autocompletion

What I don't like:

* takes a long time to load up.
* code completion boxes in JSP sometimes come up inappropriately and
don't go away, I have to hit ESC. After doing this all day, it's
mighty annoying.
* changed the CVS paradigm from 4.1 and some of the features I used to
depend on aren't there now.
* doesn't autoclose scriptlet tags (but does bean tags -- go figure).

I use Visual Web Developer for ASP.NET projects and I never use the
"visual" developer, I always work in the code, so I guess I'm right
out of it in that department. At least VWD will try to steer your
code toward XHTML standards, VS 2003 just generates nightmare code.
Also, I think the "publish" mechanism used by both VS and VWD is
dorky. WAR files are where it is at, AFAIC.

Thanks.

mp

PS I do all my 'one-offs' and code tests in emacs with JDE
.... heh-heh. I'm using emacs/gnus right now for my news reading. I
wouldn't go near Eclipse again, though ... i just didn't get enough
return for my time investment.

--
Michael Powe (e-mail address removed) Naugatuck CT USA

Oil production is in decline in 33 of the 48 largest oil producing
countries, ...
-- Chevron Oil web site

 

[Steve Sobol]

I don't know where "slow and clunky" comes from. I use it on both
windows and linux (1.7Ghz and 950Mhz machines, respectively) with
decent amounts of RAM and it works great.

NetBeans USED TO be a horrendous resource hog compared to Eclipse, in my
experience. I attributed Eclipse's smaller profile, in large part, to the
Standard Widget Toolkit's usage of native widgets where possible.

However, I've seen big improvements in the performance and native look and
feel of Swing in Java 1.5, so I suspect the difference between NetBeans and
Eclipse is much less significant when both are running under a 1.5 JVM. I
haven't tried the latest NetBeans, though.

 

[Chris Uppal]

Are you thinking of "Run configurations"? You get to specify the
command line arguments passed to your program and the JVM in those
things, as well as the "working directory", which JRE to use, the
classpath, and environment variables. It's a pretty natural and useful
concept to me.

Not to me. Consider:

Why should I have to define one of these things at all ? Why can't I just
right click on main() and say "run this" or "debug this" ?

Come to that, why am I restricted to running main() ? There's no logical or
technical reason I shouldn't be able to start execution at any static method
(perhaps restricted to ones with simple argument types -- like String[]).

I'm not saying that the ability to save such a configuration (with "advanced"
options about VM configuration, etc) wouldn't be useful. But only /as/ an
advanced option.

Why are breakpoints etc, not associated with a "Run configuration" ? If that's
a good name for the concept, then I'd definitely expect each configuration to
have its own breakpoints (depending on what I'm interested in).

Why do I have to clean the blasted things up ? Shouldn't they be associated
with a project or something ? In my current Eclipse session I have 10 run
configurations, and only two refer to any currently open project. Indeed most
of the zombies refer to code which is no longer in Eclipse at all.

The things don't correspond to anything in my working flow (I just want to
execute some /code/, dammit!). And have only a tenuous connection with
something that I might be tempted to change my flow to use (i.e. true Run
Configurations).

As far as I can see they are just an externalisation of something that
undoubtedly makes perfect sense in implementation terms (i.e. starting a debug
JVM process), but which doesn't have meaning for me as a user.

If this stuff had been designed around the user, rather than around the
implementation, then there would either be no such concept at all, or it would
have been engineered around the kind of information that a user would wish to
group into a Run Configuration. This kind of inside-out thinking pervades the
entire Eclipse experience.

Perhaps there are various "ways of thinking",

True beyond doubt. But...

and Eclipse happens to
be designed for people who think the same way I do.

....that may be true too, but only if (say) you routinely work on debugger
implementations, and so happen to think in those terms. If not (or nothing
similar) then I suggest that it is not that Eclipse has been designed for
people who think like you, but that you have used Eclipse for long enough to
have internalised the impoverished "abstractions" that it offers, and no longer
see the deficiencies therein.

-- chris

 

[Chris Uppal]

However, I've seen big improvements in the performance and native look and
feel of Swing in Java 1.5, so I suspect the difference between NetBeans
and Eclipse is much less significant when both are running under a 1.5
JVM. I haven't tried the latest NetBeans, though.

FWIW, some numbers, using JDK 1.5.0_06 on a 1.5 GHz laptop with 512 MBytes RAM:

Runnng Eclipse 3.1, no projects open, no files loaded, only the "Java browsing"
persective active, takes 75 M RAM, of which 47 are in the "working set".
Startup time from a warm start (i.e. immediately after closing the previous
Eclipse sesssion), 11 seconds[*]. Loading one very small test project and
opening the one file it contains, takes memory up to 109 M of which all is in
working set.

Similar picture for Netbeans 5.0: no projects open, no files open. 92 M RAM,
of which 72 in working set. Startup time from warm, 30 seconds. Loading an
equivalent test project and opening the same single file, takes memory up to
106 Meg, (96 working set).

(For comparison: the full-featured and comparably recent Dolphin Smalltalk 6
Pro IDE: 27 M, of which all is in working set. Startup time from warm, 3
seconds. Smalltalk doesn't keep source code in files, so there's no equivalent
to "opening up a small test project" since all the code is already available.)

Of course, all these numbers should be taken with the customary Large Pinch of
Salt...

-- chris

([*] To be honest this surprised me, but then I don't normally start Eclipse
from warm.)

 

[Michael Powe]

Chris> FWIW, some numbers, using JDK 1.5.0_06 on a 1.5 GHz laptop
Chris> with 512 MBytes RAM:

[ ... ]

Chris> Similar picture for Netbeans 5.0: no projects open, no
Chris> files open. 92 M RAM, of which 72 in working set. Startup
Chris> time from warm, 30 seconds. Loading an equivalent test
Chris> project and opening the same single file, takes memory up
Chris> to 106 Meg, (96 working set).

The long load time is a gripe for me, although I'm quite sure it is
because of the huge number of modules that are installed by default.
One of these days, I'll get around to subtracting all the ones I don't
use and then I expect to see improvement.

Still, since I generally have it open for days at a time, it's an
intermittent issue.

5.0 is substantially improved over 4.1, which was much better than 3.5
-- the trend line is in the right direction. ;-)

Thanks.

mp

--
Michael Powe (e-mail address removed) Naugatuck CT USA
"The most likely way for the world to be destroyed, most experts
agree, is by accident. That's where we come in. We're computer
professionals. We cause accidents." -- Nathaniel Borenstein, inventor
of MIME

 

[Michael Powe]

Steve> NetBeans USED TO be a horrendous resource hog compared to
Steve> Eclipse, in my experience. I attributed Eclipse's smaller
Steve> profile, in large part, to the Standard Widget Toolkit's
Steve> usage of native widgets where possible.

There are few complaints about performance on the nb users list,
though there are plenty of other types of complaints. ;-) In part
that may simply be a reflection of general hardware improvements. I
know that it's just unusable on my old 600Mhz laptop, which has a
whopping 192Mb RAM. I just use emacs there.

One thing, I just don't have the Eclipse mentality -- I don't want to
spend hours downloading, installing and learning to use "plugins" just
so I can develop an application or a web site. Frankly, I think there
is something of the "making a virtue of necessity" in the argument
that the Eclipse Way is somehow an improvement over being able to
download, install, start and USE a fully-configured IDE.

Although, I did once spend an hour "skinning" NB. ;-)

Thanks.

mp

 

[Thomas Kellerer]

What I don't like:

* changed the CVS paradigm from 4.1 and some of the features I used to
depend on aren't there now.

You can download the "old" CVS module through the Update Center and get
everything back that you are missing

Regards
Thomas

 

[Oliver Wong]

Not to me. Consider:

What you post next are all very valid complaints and feature ideas. Have
you considered submitting these as RFEs to the Eclipse team?

Why should I have to define one of these things at all ? Why can't I just
right click on main() and say "run this" or "debug this" ?

I believe you *can* do that (except you'd click on the file rather than
the main method itself). There is a side effect of a run configuration
automatically being created for you. I imagine there might be a slight
problem if you wish to start execution at a given entry point, and more than
one run configuration is defined on that entry point. Eclipse could then
prompt you for which one you wanted, or it could by default always run using
a "blank" run configuration point when you clicked on a method to execute
it, and only use your configurations when you explicitly select them.

Come to that, why am I restricted to running main() ? There's no logical
or
technical reason I shouldn't be able to start execution at any static
method
(perhaps restricted to ones with simple argument types -- like String[]).

Or start execution by invoking some constructor, as I heard BlueJ does.
Perhaps the run configuration could even accept arbitrary code to execute
within a static context.

I'm not saying that the ability to save such a configuration (with
"advanced"
options about VM configuration, etc) wouldn't be useful. But only /as/ an
advanced option.

Why are breakpoints etc, not associated with a "Run configuration" ? If
that's
a good name for the concept, then I'd definitely expect each configuration
to
have its own breakpoints (depending on what I'm interested in).

Agreed, and it'd be nice if you could easily share these breakpoints/run
configurations, so as to help pinpoint a bug in a colleague's code.

Why do I have to clean the blasted things up ? Shouldn't they be
associated
with a project or something ? In my current Eclipse session I have 10 run
configurations, and only two refer to any currently open project. Indeed
most
of the zombies refer to code which is no longer in Eclipse at all.

Another good idea.

[...]

I suggest that it is not that Eclipse has been designed for
people who think like you, but that you have used Eclipse for long enough
to
have internalised the impoverished "abstractions" that it offers, and no
longer
see the deficiencies therein.

You're probably right.

- Oliver

 

[Monique Y. Mudama]

Why do I have to clean the blasted things up ? Shouldn't they be
associated with a project or something ? In my current Eclipse
session I have 10 run configurations, and only two refer to any
currently open project. Indeed most of the zombies refer to code
which is no longer in Eclipse at all.

I'd rather have 10 obsolete run configurations than have it decide I'm
not using them and destroy them. This way, if I have to resurrect a
project I haven't worked on in a long time, I still have the run
parameters. It's not like they're something you stare at on a regular
basis.

I suppose it could ask you, when you delete a project, if you want to
delete any associated run configurations.