Microsoft .NET or Sun's JAVA for new web application

Discussion in 'Java' started by Dallas Cowboy, Jul 7, 2003.

  1. Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
    to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
    there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
    security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
    license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
    Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
    complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
    Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java? Has
    Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability? Thanks in
    advance.
    Dallas Cowboy, Jul 7, 2003
    #1
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  2. Dallas Cowboy

    Drew Volpe Guest

    Last time we met, Dallas Cowboy <> had said:
    > Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
    > to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    > for my totally new project.


    there's your first problem right there; you shouldn't pick a language
    and force it down developers' throats. Let the technical people
    make the technical decisions. There might be a great .NET component
    for what you're trying to do, or some (technical) reason why you
    need Java's cross-platform capabilities. This is not a decision
    someone with your limited technical background should make alone.

    > What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
    > there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
    > security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper


    Java isn't open source (though it is free and does run on Linux
    and other non-Windows platforms).

    > license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
    > Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of


    Java is much more widely used than .NET. Much, much more. .NET
    is brand new and is gaining ground, so it's possible that this
    will change in a year or two. But right now, Java is the more
    widely used and proven technology.



    dv

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The geographical center of Boston is in Roxbury. Due north of the
    center we find the South End. This is not to be confused with South
    Boston which lies directly east from the South End. North of the South
    End is East Boston and southwest of East Boston is the North End.

    Drew Volpe, mylastname at hcs o harvard o edu
    Drew Volpe, Jul 7, 2003
    #2
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  3. Dallas Cowboy

    Brad BARCLAY Guest

    Dallas Cowboy wrote:
    > Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
    > to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    > for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
    > there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
    > security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
    > license costs, etc... however less people use.


    No, less people use .NET.

    I'd stick with Java for one simple reason -- if you use Java, your
    clients can use it completely irrespective of what OS they use. They
    can use Linux, Solaris, OS/2, FreeBSD, Windows, MacOS, or anything else
    they like, and still use your content.

    If you use .NET, then Windows users can use your content -- and even
    then, only if they have an up-to-date version of Windows (or have
    applied all the necessary .NET add-ons).

    As a non-Windows user, anyone who uses .NET as an external interface
    mechanism simply will never get my business. So you have to ask
    yourself -- do you want to target something that only a majority of your
    users can access and use, or something _all_ of your potential users can
    access and use?

    If the latter, you want to use Java.

    Brad BARCLAY

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
    The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org
    Brad BARCLAY, Jul 7, 2003
    #3
  4. (Dallas Cowboy) writes:
    > Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager.


    Then you might want to read:

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130796603/
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932633439/
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201835959/
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201192462/
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556159005/

    Of course, no need to get them from Amazon. Any bookshop will do.

    > I would like
    > to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    > for my totally new project.


    If you have an existing team, let them have a vote. If you don't, hire
    Java programmers (hey, you have asked in a Java group :).

    > What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
    > there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
    > security, reliability, and its open sources (linux)


    Not really. There are several attempts to create true open-source Java
    implementations. I am not aware of one that is complete. The existing
    complete implementations are not open-source. However, most of them are
    free (as in free of charge).

    > It is not open source. for cheaper
    > license costs, etc... however less people use.


    http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm indicates otherwise.

    > Meanwhile Microsoft
    > Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
    > complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
    > Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?


    It would be the first time that a technology cloned by Microsoft would
    be better then the original one. But one can hope :)

    > Has
    > Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability?


    Microsoft has a huge marketing campaign going on:

    http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/innovation/twc/

    I have my doubts if marketing will fix their fundamental security
    problems - which are rooted in their corporate culture.

    Oh, and please note that Microsoft defines "Trustworthy Computing" as
    "a long-term vision". So if you have time to wait ...

    /Thomas
    Thomas Weidenfeller, Jul 8, 2003
    #4
  5. Dallas Cowboy

    Stan Goodman Guest

    On Mon, 7 Jul 2003 20:23:01 UTC, (Dallas Cowboy)
    opined:

    > Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
    > to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    > for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
    > there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
    > security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
    > license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
    > Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
    > complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
    > Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java? Has
    > Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability? Thanks in
    > advance.


    Why would you choose to present your site in a proprietary format,
    particular to a specific (though many-flavored) operating system?
    (Unless, of course, you think that everybody MUST join the herd.)

    Why would you choose to present your site in a format devised by a
    company that has a long and interesting history of security
    vulnerability?

    Why, in principle, would you go with a language that owes its birth to
    a paranoiac tendency to monopoly, seeing that its motivation was and
    is, not to contend with a commercial competitor, but to torpedo a
    well-supported cross-platform language that is of equal use to
    everybody?

    --
    Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

    Please replace "SPAM-FOILER" with "sgoodman".

    200 years of European fecklessness in the face of Arab terror: Tripoli
    Pirates (1814); OPEC Oil (1973); Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat
    (1990 et seq.) -- but actually financing it, and marching in support
    of tyranny, are 21st-century craven European wrinkles.
    Stan Goodman, Jul 8, 2003
    #5
  6. Dallas Cowboy

    Tim Tyler Guest

    Dallas Cowboy <> wrote:

    : As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?

    That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/
    Tim Tyler, Jul 8, 2003
    #6
  7. Thanks for quick response and advice from all respect respondents. I
    need to verify about my questions since a few of your answers loop me
    back to my unknow state:

    Firstly, my new project will come up with new hire technical
    programmers. So, I need to know which environment should I start
    before hiring. Therefore, I currently don't have a team yet who I can
    ask for their recommendation or what language/environement do they
    want to go.

    Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
    been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
    for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
    will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
    integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
    eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
    PC, etc....

    I understood that more JAVA developers than .NET since JAVA has been
    out there for a quite long plus its better security and reliability
    environment. However, my question was. As of .NET has just came out,
    has it beeen improved in this area? So, I hope that someones who have
    been used or developed both in JAVA and recently in .NET could give me
    some thoughts. Thank you all and God bless.
    Dallas Cowboy, Jul 8, 2003
    #7
  8. Dallas Cowboy

    Brad BARCLAY Guest

    Dallas Cowboy wrote:

    > Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
    > been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
    > for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
    > will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
    > integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
    > eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
    > PC, etc....


    I wouldn't expect Microsoft to ever develop a .NET solution for PalmOS
    handhelds. Microsoft develops technologies for Microsoft platforms
    almost exclusively.

    Again, you have to ask yourself: is it worth your while to choose an
    environment that leaves out 5 - 10% of your potential user base, or one
    that everyone can use regardless of OS platform? To my mind, I'm much
    rather cater to everyone rather than a subset of possible customers.
    Every modern OS can run Java, but only MS platforms can run .NET.

    Brad BARCLAY

    --
    =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
    From the OS/2 WARP v4.5 Desktop of Brad BARCLAY.
    The jSyncManager Project: http://www.jsyncmanager.org
    Brad BARCLAY, Jul 8, 2003
    #8
  9. Dallas Cowboy

    Tim Tyler Guest

    Stan Goodman <> wrote:
    : On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:16:17 UTC, Tim Tyler <> opined:
    :> Dallas Cowboy <> wrote:

    :> : As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?
    :>
    :> That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.

    : I don't agree. He is not advocating anything, nor asking for advocacy.

    You may recall the charter of that group:

    ``An unmoderated group for articles supporting or criticising Java,
    discussion of its position in the marketplace, competing technologies
    (such as Microsoft's Blackbird), Java's future potential, and related
    issues such as bandwidth requirements and Internet Access Devices.''

    Clearly questions about Java's standing with respect to its competitors
    are firmly on topic there.
    --
    __________
    |im |yler http://timtyler.org/
    Tim Tyler, Jul 8, 2003
    #9
  10. Dallas Cowboy

    Stan Goodman Guest

    On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 18:04:35 UTC, Tim Tyler <> opined:

    > Stan Goodman <> wrote:
    > : On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:16:17 UTC, Tim Tyler <> opined:
    > :> Dallas Cowboy <> wrote:
    >
    > :> : As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?
    > :>
    > :> That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.
    >
    > : I don't agree. He is not advocating anything, nor asking for advocacy.
    >
    > You may recall the charter of that group:
    >
    > ``An unmoderated group for articles supporting or criticising Java,
    > discussion of its position in the marketplace, competing technologies
    > (such as Microsoft's Blackbird), Java's future potential, and related
    > issues such as bandwidth requirements and Internet Access Devices.''
    >
    > Clearly questions about Java's standing with respect to its competitors
    > are firmly on topic there.


    There are indeed many groups in which he could legitimately ask his
    question. There is no real reason that he should not ask it here.

    --
    Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

    Please replace "SPAM-FOILER" with "sgoodman".

    200 years of European fecklessness in the face of Arab terror: Tripoli
    Pirates (1814); OPEC Oil (1973); Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat
    (1990 et seq.) -- but actually financing it, and marching in support
    of tyranny, are 21st-century craven European wrinkles.
    Stan Goodman, Jul 8, 2003
    #10
  11. Dallas Cowboy

    Drew Volpe Guest

    Last time we met, Dallas Cowboy <> had said:
    > Thanks for quick response and advice from all respect respondents. I
    > need to verify about my questions since a few of your answers loop me
    > back to my unknow state:
    >
    > Firstly, my new project will come up with new hire technical
    > programmers. So, I need to know which environment should I start
    > before hiring. Therefore, I currently don't have a team yet who I can
    > ask for their recommendation or what language/environement do they
    > want to go.


    You're asking for failure here. How are you going to evaluate
    and hire programmers if you don't anything about the technologies and
    languages they'll be using ?

    I would recommend hiring one experienced person who knows web applications
    and let him help you choose the technology and build the team.


    > Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
    > been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
    > for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
    > will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
    > integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
    > eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
    > PC, etc....


    It depends entirely on what specifically you're doing. It's easier to
    integrate a .NET app with Word than one in Java. But integrating a
    ..NET app with most mobile devices (Palms, Java phones, etc.) will
    be harder than in Java.




    dv

    --
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The geographical center of Boston is in Roxbury. Due north of the
    center we find the South End. This is not to be confused with South
    Boston which lies directly east from the South End. North of the South
    End is East Boston and southwest of East Boston is the North End.

    Drew Volpe, mylastname at hcs o harvard o edu
    Drew Volpe, Jul 8, 2003
    #11
  12. Dallas Cowboy

    Bruce Lewis Guest

    (Dallas Cowboy) writes:

    > Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
    > to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
    > for my totally new project.


    Note that Java is a platform and a language, and .NET is a platform. If
    you go with the .NET platform, you'll have to choose C#, Visual Basic,
    or one of the other languages for the CLR. If you go with Java as a
    platform, you might use the Java language in JSPs, or you might use
    JSTL, WebMacro, Velocity, Tea, or BRL. Good luck.

    > Meanwhile Microsoft
    > Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
    > complaint for its lack of security and reliability.


    I hope you know that seeing .net in a hostname does not mean they're
    using Microsoft's .NET technology. The .NET top-level Internet domain
    has been around long before Microsoft's .NET technology. It goes along
    with their marketing ploy of naming products generically, trying to
    co-opt existing name recognition. There's no Microsoft .NET on php.net
    or sourceforge.net, and most companies use SQL servers that aren't
    Microsoft SQL server.

    --
    "Notwithstanding fervent argument that patent protection is essential
    for the growth of the software industry, commentators have noted
    that `this industry is growing by leaps and bounds without it.'"
    -- US Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, March 3, 1981.
    I rarely read mail sent to
    Bruce Lewis, Jul 9, 2003
    #12
  13. Dallas Cowboy

    Chris Smith Guest

    Dallas Cowboy wrote:
    > Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
    > been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
    > for their desktop applications including IE browser.


    But that isn't what you said. You said that "less people use" Java.
    Compared to what? Can't be Windows. That would be like saying "less
    people use calculators than doorknobs"... it's a pointless statement;
    true, but still without meaning in making a comparison, simply because
    you will never end up choosing between a calculator or a doorknob for a
    specific task.

    So people generally assumed from your subject that you meant less people
    use Java than .NET. That's false, and people were telling you so.

    > In this case,
    > will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
    > integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
    > eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
    > PC, etc....


    With that last sentence, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
    Generally, though, language- or platform-based remote interfaces are not
    suitable for planning general expansion in the future. Once you've
    chosen a reasonably portable remote interface (eg, SOAP and WSDL, or
    CORBA, or a new TCP-based protocol), it will probably be available
    regardless of the choice of implementation.

    > I understood that more JAVA developers than .NET since JAVA has been
    > out there for a quite long plus its better security and reliability
    > environment. However, my question was. As of .NET has just came out,
    > has it beeen improved in this area?


    What is "this area"?

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
    Chris Smith, Jul 10, 2003
    #13
  14. Dallas Cowboy

    Chris Smith Guest

    Jon A. Cruz wrote:
    > Bruce Lewis wrote:
    > > Note that Java is a platform and a language, and .NET is a platform. If
    > > you go with the .NET platform, you'll have to choose C#, Visual Basic,
    > > or one of the other languages for the CLR.

    >
    > Minor clarification: You can't easily use Visual Basic to program for
    > .NET. You would have to use Visual Basic.NET to program for it.
    >
    > When it first came out, there was quite a ruckus since it was different
    > enough from the prior versions of Visual Basic to upset existing VB
    > programmers. Some even called it a different language altogether.


    Sure, and in all honesty it is a different, but closely related,
    language. Generally speaking, though, the VB changes are not nearly so
    significant as the C++ changes, since Visual C++ used to actually be a
    compiler for a standard language.

    --
    www.designacourse.com
    The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

    Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
    MindIQ Corporation
    Chris Smith, Jul 10, 2003
    #14
  15. Dallas Cowboy

    Jon A. Cruz Guest

    Chris Smith wrote:
    >
    > Sure, and in all honesty it is a different, but closely related,
    > language. Generally speaking, though, the VB changes are not nearly so
    > significant as the C++ changes, since Visual C++ used to actually be a
    > compiler for a standard language.


    Ahh... Yes. But

    In this context (hiring new people to work on a project), the difference
    is important. The OP would want people who could program in VB.NET, not
    just people who can program in VB.

    Depending on who in the VB community you talk to, those two can be very
    different.
    Jon A. Cruz, Jul 10, 2003
    #15
  16. Dallas Cowboy

    Tukla Ratte Guest

    On Wed, 09 Jul 2003 08:23:46 -0700, "Jon A. Cruz" <>
    wrote:

    > Bruce Lewis wrote:
    > > Note that Java is a platform and a language, and .NET is a platform. If
    > > you go with the .NET platform, you'll have to choose C#, Visual Basic,
    > > or one of the other languages for the CLR.

    >
    > Minor clarification: You can't easily use Visual Basic to program for
    > .NET. You would have to use Visual Basic.NET to program for it.
    >
    > When it first came out, there was quite a ruckus since it was different
    > enough from the prior versions of Visual Basic to upset existing VB
    > programmers. Some even called it a different language altogether.


    I began reading a book (rom Microsoft Press) on VB.NET a few months
    ago. It started out telling me how cool it was that I'd be able to
    leverage my VB knowledge on .NET. It then promptly started explaining
    how this was different and that was different and those were gone and
    the syntax here had changed and blah blah blah.

    I haven't gotten past Chapter 3 yet, so I can't tell you if the whole
    book is like that. I thought it was hilarious, and I was glad that I
    didn't have any previous VB experience to stumble over.

    --
    Tukla, Squeaker of Chew Toys
    Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism
    Tukla Ratte, Jul 10, 2003
    #16
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