Microsoft .NET or Sun's JAVA for new web application

[Dallas Cowboy]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java? Has
Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability? Thanks in
advance.

 

[Drew Volpe]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project.

there's your first problem right there; you shouldn't pick a language
and force it down developers' throats. Let the technical people
make the technical decisions. There might be a great .NET component
for what you're trying to do, or some (technical) reason why you
need Java's cross-platform capabilities. This is not a decision
someone with your limited technical background should make alone.

What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper

Java isn't open source (though it is free and does run on Linux
and other non-Windows platforms).

license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of

Java is much more widely used than .NET. Much, much more. .NET
is brand new and is gaining ground, so it's possible that this
will change in a year or two. But right now, Java is the more
widely used and proven technology.



dv

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The geographical center of Boston is in Roxbury. Due north of the
center we find the South End. This is not to be confused with South
Boston which lies directly east from the South End. North of the South
End is East Boston and southwest of East Boston is the North End.

Drew Volpe, mylastname at hcs o harvard o edu

 

[Brad BARCLAY]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
license costs, etc... however less people use.

No, less people use .NET.

I'd stick with Java for one simple reason -- if you use Java, your
clients can use it completely irrespective of what OS they use. They
can use Linux, Solaris, OS/2, FreeBSD, Windows, MacOS, or anything else
they like, and still use your content.

If you use .NET, then Windows users can use your content -- and even
then, only if they have an up-to-date version of Windows (or have
applied all the necessary .NET add-ons).

As a non-Windows user, anyone who uses .NET as an external interface
mechanism simply will never get my business. So you have to ask
yourself -- do you want to target something that only a majority of your
users can access and use, or something _all_ of your potential users can
access and use?

If the latter, you want to use Java.

Brad BARCLAY

 

[Thomas Weidenfeller]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager.

Then you might want to read:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0130796603/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0932633439/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201835959/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0201192462/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1556159005/

Of course, no need to get them from Amazon. Any bookshop will do.

I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project.

If you have an existing team, let them have a vote. If you don't, hire
Java programmers (hey, you have asked in a Java group .

What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
security, reliability, and its open sources (linux)

Not really. There are several attempts to create true open-source Java
implementations. I am not aware of one that is complete. The existing
complete implementations are not open-source. However, most of them are
free (as in free of charge).

It is not open source. for cheaper
license costs, etc... however less people use.

http://www.tiobe.com/tiobe_index/index.htm indicates otherwise.

Meanwhile Microsoft
Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?

It would be the first time that a technology cloned by Microsoft would
be better then the original one. But one can hope

Has
Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability?

Microsoft has a huge marketing campaign going on:

http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/innovation/twc/

I have my doubts if marketing will fix their fundamental security
problems - which are rooted in their corporate culture.

Oh, and please note that Microsoft defines "Trustworthy Computing" as
"a long-term vision". So if you have time to wait ...

/Thomas

 

[Stan Goodman]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project. What I know that Sun's JAVA has been out
there for quite a long with most people consent of its better
security, reliability, and its open sources (linux) for cheaper
license costs, etc... however less people use. Meanwhile Microsoft
Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
complaint for its lack of security and reliability. As Microsoft's
Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java? Has
Microsoft improved its lack of security and reliability? Thanks in
advance.

Why would you choose to present your site in a proprietary format,
particular to a specific (though many-flavored) operating system?
(Unless, of course, you think that everybody MUST join the herd.)

Why would you choose to present your site in a format devised by a
company that has a long and interesting history of security
vulnerability?

Why, in principle, would you go with a language that owes its birth to
a paranoiac tendency to monopoly, seeing that its motivation was and
is, not to contend with a commercial competitor, but to torpedo a
well-supported cross-platform language that is of equal use to
everybody?

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Please replace "SPAM-FOILER" with "sgoodman".

200 years of European fecklessness in the face of Arab terror: Tripoli
Pirates (1814); OPEC Oil (1973); Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat
(1990 et seq.) -- but actually financing it, and marching in support
of tyranny, are 21st-century craven European wrinkles.

 

[Tim Tyler]

: As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?

That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.

 

[Dallas Cowboy]

Thanks for quick response and advice from all respect respondents. I
need to verify about my questions since a few of your answers loop me
back to my unknow state:

Firstly, my new project will come up with new hire technical
programmers. So, I need to know which environment should I start
before hiring. Therefore, I currently don't have a team yet who I can
ask for their recommendation or what language/environement do they
want to go.

Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
PC, etc....

I understood that more JAVA developers than .NET since JAVA has been
out there for a quite long plus its better security and reliability
environment. However, my question was. As of .NET has just came out,
has it beeen improved in this area? So, I hope that someones who have
been used or developed both in JAVA and recently in .NET could give me
some thoughts. Thank you all and God bless.

 

[Brad BARCLAY]

Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
PC, etc....

I wouldn't expect Microsoft to ever develop a .NET solution for PalmOS
handhelds. Microsoft develops technologies for Microsoft platforms
almost exclusively.

Again, you have to ask yourself: is it worth your while to choose an
environment that leaves out 5 - 10% of your potential user base, or one
that everyone can use regardless of OS platform? To my mind, I'm much
rather cater to everyone rather than a subset of possible customers.
Every modern OS can run Java, but only MS platforms can run .NET.

Brad BARCLAY

 

[Tim Tyler]

: On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:16:17 UTC, Tim Tyler <[email protected]> opined:

:> : As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?
:>
:> That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.

: I don't agree. He is not advocating anything, nor asking for advocacy.

You may recall the charter of that group:

``An unmoderated group for articles supporting or criticising Java,
discussion of its position in the marketplace, competing technologies
(such as Microsoft's Blackbird), Java's future potential, and related
issues such as bandwidth requirements and Internet Access Devices.''

Clearly questions about Java's standing with respect to its competitors
are firmly on topic there.

 

[Stan Goodman]

: On Tue, 8 Jul 2003 08:16:17 UTC, Tim Tyler <[email protected]> opined:

:> : As Microsoft's Visual .NET is borned after JAVA, is it better than Java?
:>
:> That question would be better asked in comp.lang.java.advocacy.

: I don't agree. He is not advocating anything, nor asking for advocacy.

You may recall the charter of that group:

``An unmoderated group for articles supporting or criticising Java,
discussion of its position in the marketplace, competing technologies
(such as Microsoft's Blackbird), Java's future potential, and related
issues such as bandwidth requirements and Internet Access Devices.''

Clearly questions about Java's standing with respect to its competitors
are firmly on topic there.

There are indeed many groups in which he could legitimately ask his
question. There is no real reason that he should not ask it here.

--
Stan Goodman, Qiryat Tiv'on, Israel

Please replace "SPAM-FOILER" with "sgoodman".

200 years of European fecklessness in the face of Arab terror: Tripoli
Pirates (1814); OPEC Oil (1973); Saddam Hussein and Yasser Arafat
(1990 et seq.) -- but actually financing it, and marching in support
of tyranny, are 21st-century craven European wrinkles.

 

[Drew Volpe]

Thanks for quick response and advice from all respect respondents. I
need to verify about my questions since a few of your answers loop me
back to my unknow state:

Firstly, my new project will come up with new hire technical
programmers. So, I need to know which environment should I start
before hiring. Therefore, I currently don't have a team yet who I can
ask for their recommendation or what language/environement do they
want to go.

You're asking for failure here. How are you going to evaluate
and hire programmers if you don't anything about the technologies and
languages they'll be using ?

I would recommend hiring one experienced person who knows web applications
and let him help you choose the technology and build the team.

Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
for their desktop applications including IE browser. In this case,
will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
PC, etc....

It depends entirely on what specifically you're doing. It's easier to
integrate a .NET app with Word than one in Java. But integrating a
..NET app with most mobile devices (Palms, Java phones, etc.) will
be harder than in Java.




dv

--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
The geographical center of Boston is in Roxbury. Due north of the
center we find the South End. This is not to be confused with South
Boston which lies directly east from the South End. North of the South
End is East Boston and southwest of East Boston is the North End.

Drew Volpe, mylastname at hcs o harvard o edu

 

[Bruce Lewis]

Let's say I am not a developer rather a project manager. I would like
to receive some advice and comment about which language should I pick
for my totally new project.

Note that Java is a platform and a language, and .NET is a platform. If
you go with the .NET platform, you'll have to choose C#, Visual Basic,
or one of the other languages for the CLR. If you go with Java as a
platform, you might use the Java language in JSPs, or you might use
JSTL, WebMacro, Velocity, Tea, or BRL. Good luck.

Meanwhile Microsoft
Windows platforms has been widely used by people but a lot of
complaint for its lack of security and reliability.

I hope you know that seeing .net in a hostname does not mean they're
using Microsoft's .NET technology. The .NET top-level Internet domain
has been around long before Microsoft's .NET technology. It goes along
with their marketing ploy of naming products generically, trying to
co-opt existing name recognition. There's no Microsoft .NET on php.net
or sourceforge.net, and most companies use SQL servers that aren't
Microsoft SQL server.

--
"Notwithstanding fervent argument that patent protection is essential
for the growth of the software industry, commentators have noted
that `this industry is growing by leaps and bounds without it.'"
-- US Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, March 3, 1981.
I rarely read mail sent to (e-mail address removed)

 

[Chris Smith]

Secondly, I probably misled in my question when I said Windows has
been widely used. I meant, that most client users are using Windows
for their desktop applications including IE browser.

But that isn't what you said. You said that "less people use" Java.
Compared to what? Can't be Windows. That would be like saying "less
people use calculators than doorknobs"... it's a pointless statement;
true, but still without meaning in making a comparison, simply because
you will never end up choosing between a calculator or a doorknob for a
specific task.

So people generally assumed from your subject that you meant less people
use Java than .NET. That's false, and people were telling you so.

In this case,
will there be any problem when developing a web application that may
integrate with other desktop applications later? I am talking about
eventually more people using mobile technoloty such as Palm or Pocket
PC, etc....

With that last sentence, I'm not sure what you're talking about.
Generally, though, language- or platform-based remote interfaces are not
suitable for planning general expansion in the future. Once you've
chosen a reasonably portable remote interface (eg, SOAP and WSDL, or
CORBA, or a new TCP-based protocol), it will probably be available
regardless of the choice of implementation.

I understood that more JAVA developers than .NET since JAVA has been
out there for a quite long plus its better security and reliability
environment. However, my question was. As of .NET has just came out,
has it beeen improved in this area?

What is "this area"?

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Chris Smith]

Minor clarification: You can't easily use Visual Basic to program for
.NET. You would have to use Visual Basic.NET to program for it.

When it first came out, there was quite a ruckus since it was different
enough from the prior versions of Visual Basic to upset existing VB
programmers. Some even called it a different language altogether.

Sure, and in all honesty it is a different, but closely related,
language. Generally speaking, though, the VB changes are not nearly so
significant as the C++ changes, since Visual C++ used to actually be a
compiler for a standard language.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Jon A. Cruz]

Sure, and in all honesty it is a different, but closely related,
language. Generally speaking, though, the VB changes are not nearly so
significant as the C++ changes, since Visual C++ used to actually be a
compiler for a standard language.

Ahh... Yes. But

In this context (hiring new people to work on a project), the difference
is important. The OP would want people who could program in VB.NET, not
just people who can program in VB.

Depending on who in the VB community you talk to, those two can be very
different.

 

[Tukla Ratte]

Minor clarification: You can't easily use Visual Basic to program for
.NET. You would have to use Visual Basic.NET to program for it.

When it first came out, there was quite a ruckus since it was different
enough from the prior versions of Visual Basic to upset existing VB
programmers. Some even called it a different language altogether.

I began reading a book (rom Microsoft Press) on VB.NET a few months
ago. It started out telling me how cool it was that I'd be able to
leverage my VB knowledge on .NET. It then promptly started explaining
how this was different and that was different and those were gone and
the syntax here had changed and blah blah blah.

I haven't gotten past Chapter 3 yet, so I can't tell you if the whole
book is like that. I thought it was hilarious, and I was glad that I
didn't have any previous VB experience to stumble over.