move to end, in Python 3.2 Really?

Discussion in 'Python' started by nn, Jan 18, 2011.

  1. nn

    nn Guest

    I somehow missed this before. I like most of the additions from
    Raymond Hettinger. But the api on this baffles me a bit:

    >>> d = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcde')


    >>> d.move_to_end('b', last=False)


    >>> ''.join(d.keys)

    'bacde'

    I understand that "end" could potentially mean either end, but would
    "move_to_end" and "move_to_beginning" not have been clearer?
     
    nn, Jan 18, 2011
    #1
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  2. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 17, 8:51 pm, nn <> wrote:
    > I somehow missed this before. I like most of the additions from
    > Raymond Hettinger. But the api on this baffles me a bit:



    If we are not careful with all these "additions" we could end up with
    a language like ruby which has wasteful methods to clean your
    backside, and take out your trash -- clogging up your dir requests :mad:
    Multiplicity is a slippery slope my friend!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #2
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  3. nn

    Carl Banks Guest

    On Jan 17, 6:51 pm, nn <> wrote:
    > I somehow missed this before. I like most of the additions from
    > Raymond Hettinger. But the api on this baffles me a bit:
    >
    > >>> d = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcde')
    > >>> d.move_to_end('b', last=False)
    > >>> ''.join(d.keys)

    >
    > 'bacde'
    >
    > I understand that "end" could potentially mean either end, but would
    > "move_to_end" and "move_to_beginning" not have been clearer?


    It's a minor issue, but I'd tend to lean that way. Most other times
    when something can happen on one end of a sequence or another, it uses
    different function calls. E.g.: startswith vs endswith, lstrip vs
    rstrip, and even pop vs popleft.

    Oddly, Hettinger seems to be a big advocate of not overloading
    functions.


    Carl Banks
     
    Carl Banks, Jan 18, 2011
    #3
  4. On Jan 17, 6:51 pm, nn <> wrote:
    > ...But the api on this baffles me a bit:
    >
    > >>> d = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcde')
    > >>> d.move_to_end('b', last=False)
    > >>> ''.join(d.keys)

    >
    > 'bacde'
    >
    > I understand that "end" could potentially mean either end, but would
    > "move_to_end" and "move_to_beginning" not have been clearer?


    The default (and normal usage) is to move an item to the last
    position.
    So, od.move_to_end(k) becomes a fast equivalent to v=d.pop(k)
    followed by d[k]=v.

    The less common usage of moving to the beginning is done with
    last=False. This parallels the existing API for od.popitem():

    >>> od = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcdefghi')
    >>> od.move_to_end('c') # default case: move to last
    >>> od.popitem() # default case: pop from last

    ('c', None)
    >>> od.move_to_end('d', last=False) # other case: move to first
    >>> od.popitem(last=False) # other case: pop from first

    ('d', None)

    The existing list.pop() API is similar (though it takes an index
    value instead of a boolean):

    >>> mylist.pop() # default case: pop from last
    >>> mylist.pop(0) # other case: pop from first


    Those were the design considerations. Sorry you didn't like the
    result.


    Raymond
     
    Raymond Hettinger, Jan 18, 2011
    #4
  5. On Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:20:48 -0800 (PST)
    Raymond Hettinger <> wrote:
    > On Jan 17, 6:51 pm, nn <> wrote:
    > > ...But the api on this baffles me a bit:
    > >
    > > >>> d = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcde')
    > > >>> d.move_to_end('b', last=False)
    > > >>> ''.join(d.keys)

    > >
    > > 'bacde'
    > >
    > > I understand that "end" could potentially mean either end, but would
    > > "move_to_end" and "move_to_beginning" not have been clearer?

    >
    > The default (and normal usage) is to move an item to the last
    > position.
    > So, od.move_to_end(k) becomes a fast equivalent to v=d.pop(k)
    > followed by d[k]=v.
    >
    > The less common usage of moving to the beginning is done with
    > last=False. This parallels the existing API for od.popitem():


    Well I have to agree that moving to the beginning using move_to_end()
    with a "last" argument looks completely bizarre and unexpected.
    "Parallels popitem()" is not really convincing since popitem() doesn't
    have "end" its name.

    > Those were the design considerations. Sorry you didn't like the
    > result.


    Design considerations? Where were they discussed?

    Regards

    Antoine.
     
    Antoine Pitrou, Jan 18, 2011
    #5
  6. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 6:46 am, Antoine Pitrou <> wrote:

    > Design considerations? Where were they discussed?



    They were never discussed with the bulk of this community and that is
    part of what i want to change. We have a very small group of folks
    making all the decisions and that is fine. However this small group of
    "privileged" folks needs to gather input from the rest of us
    (peasants) on the value of such changes before making rash decisions.

    Currently we have a closed set of intellectual inbreeding that is
    rotting the community gene pool. We need more diversity in this
    "milkshake" to bring about and foster healthy ideas. No wonder we get
    these "brain childs" (farts) with inherited diseases from birth.
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #6
  7. nn

    MRAB Guest

    On 18/01/2011 16:27, rantingrick wrote:
    > On Jan 18, 6:46 am, Antoine Pitrou<> wrote:
    >
    >> Design considerations? Where were they discussed?

    >
    >
    > They were never discussed with the bulk of this community and that is
    > part of what i want to change. We have a very small group of folks
    > making all the decisions and that is fine. However this small group of
    > "privileged" folks needs to gather input from the rest of us
    > (peasants) on the value of such changes before making rash decisions.
    >
    > Currently we have a closed set of intellectual inbreeding that is
    > rotting the community gene pool. We need more diversity in this
    > "milkshake" to bring about and foster healthy ideas. No wonder we get
    > these "brain childs" (farts) with inherited diseases from birth.


    Decisions are made after open discussion (although we're not sure about
    "move to end" :)). You shouldn't complain about not being consulted if
    you don't take the time to join in...
     
    MRAB, Jan 18, 2011
    #7
  8. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 10:54 am, MRAB <> wrote:

    > Decisions are made after open discussion (although we're not sure about
    > "move to end" :)). You shouldn't complain about not being consulted if
    > you don't take the time to join in...


    Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    solutions-- however python-dev is a dangerous place for the
    uninitiated. And we can't have thousands and thousands of posts
    clogging up the main pool because that would only serve to slow the
    process to a grinding hault.

    However, we need some way that the average Python programmer can speak
    up and be heard when any subject that he/she is passionate about comes
    before the "council". These folks probably don't want to participate
    in the highly competitive environment of Python dev. However they may
    have very good ideas. I think we are doing this community a dis
    service by not giving these voices an outlet.

    We need either some way to vote outside of Python dev. i think it
    would be much easier to just have a site where all proposals can be
    viewed by anyone and they can offer input without clogging up Python
    dev with noob questions or bad ideas. Then the "council" can review
    these suggestions and make a more informed decision. Some might say
    "well that is what blogs and c.l.py is for" and i say wrong. I believe
    more folks would get involved if they felt that the medium was real.
    c.l.py is not that place (although it could be with some changes) and
    python.dev is not that place.

    I am open to any ideas you may have.
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #8
  9. Antoine Pitrou, Jan 18, 2011
    #9
  10. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 11:56 am, Antoine Pitrou <> wrote:
    > On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:10:48 -0800 (PST)
    >
    > rantingrick <> wrote:
    >
    > > Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    > > solutions--

    >
    > Take a look athttp://docs.python.org/devguide/#contributing


    Thanks for this link Antoine however i think you missed the point of
    my post. What i would like to see is an forum where the "noob" to
    "average" python programmer can voice his/her opinion about the
    current state or future state of Pythons syntax, stdlib, goals and
    dreams, etc, al the while not fearing attack from all sides. Currently
    such a place is non-existent. I believe many folks would get involved
    if this "place" existed however it does not exist. I also believe that
    these same folks have no interest in "debating" in the highly
    competitive environmental of python-dev, python-ideas. Heck, even
    c.l.py is far too competitive! They just basically want a forum were
    they can come in and give their two cents and leave.

    comp.lang.py would be a good place for this to happen since "after
    all" Usenet was created for like-minded people to collaborate in
    lively discussion. However c.l.py has a problem with criminals. We
    need to bring these "predators", "bullies", and "brow beaters" under
    control. I have seen many new voices come in and then get crucified by
    these scoundrels causing them to quickly "tuck tail" and run for cover
    --never to return again-- and nobody says a word!!!! And anyone who
    dares to speak out is threatened with the kill-file. This group has
    been handed over to the criminals who's only concern is chaos and
    anarchy all the while making sure that they control the speech and
    content herein.

    Now don't get me wrong we have a lot of good people here but they are
    too fearful to speak up. Sadly these folks don't realize that by
    staying quiet they only embolden the criminals to do more dastardly
    deeds. These criminals are cowards by nature, and when presented with
    a united front they will themselves "tuck tail" and run for the hills
    never to return.

    I am not saying we cannot have lively discussion, or even use the
    occasional sarcastic quip. No, what i am saying is that we need hear
    all sides of the argument. Remember this is a community of many
    different people wanting many different things. We must be willing to
    first listen, and then compromise on all sides -- if we want to move
    forward.

    Ask not...

    What is best for me?

    Instead ask yourself...

    What is best for the entire community?


    So the moral is... either we need to take back c.l.py (by force if
    needed!) or we need to abandon c.l.py and open a more friendly
    environment for Python discussions. Either way if this "forum" is not
    taken seriously by the "elite" then it will be yet another
    catastrophic failure!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #10
  11. nn

    nn Guest

    On Jan 18, 12:20 am, Raymond Hettinger <> wrote:
    > On Jan 17, 6:51 pm, nn <> wrote:
    >
    > > ...But the api on this baffles me a bit:

    >
    > > >>> d = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcde')
    > > >>> d.move_to_end('b', last=False)
    > > >>> ''.join(d.keys)

    >
    > > 'bacde'

    >
    > > I understand that "end" could potentially mean either end, but would
    > > "move_to_end" and "move_to_beginning" not have been clearer?

    >
    > The default (and normal usage) is to move an item to the last
    > position.
    > So, od.move_to_end(k) becomes a fast equivalent to v=d.pop(k)
    > followed by d[k]=v.
    >
    > The less common usage of moving to the beginning is done with
    > last=False.  This parallels the existing API for od.popitem():
    >
    > >>> od = OrderedDict.fromkeys('abcdefghi')
    > >>> od.move_to_end('c')               # default case:  move to last
    > >>> od.popitem()                      # default case:  pop from last

    > ('c', None)
    > >>> od.move_to_end('d', last=False)   # other case:    move to first
    > >>> od.popitem(last=False)            # other case:    pop from first

    >
    > ('d', None)
    >
    > The existing list.pop() API is similar (though it takes an index
    > value instead of a boolean):
    >
    > >>> mylist.pop()                      # default case:  pop from last
    > >>> mylist.pop(0)                     # other case:    pop from first

    >
    > Those were the design considerations.  Sorry you didn't like the
    > result.
    >
    > Raymond


    Ah that is where it came from! I didn't remember popitem used that API
    too. If you use them together it has a nice symmetry. I guess it is
    just that "end" is more confusing than "pop" in that context.

    Considering the precedence of popitem I withdraw my objection. I still
    think it looks a bit odd but it is not unreasonable either. Sometimes
    ugly consistency trumps beautiful inconsistency; c'est la vie...
     
    nn, Jan 18, 2011
    #11
  12. On 1/18/2011 9:10 AM rantingrick said...
    > On Jan 18, 10:54 am, MRAB<> wrote:
    >
    >> Decisions are made after open discussion (although we're not sure about
    >> "move to end" :)). You shouldn't complain about not being consulted if
    >> you don't take the time to join in...

    >
    > Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    > solutions-- however python-dev is a dangerous place for the
    > uninitiated. And we can't have thousands and thousands of posts
    > clogging up the main pool because that would only serve to slow the
    > process to a grinding hault.
    >
    > However, we need some way that the average Python programmer can speak
    > up and be heard when any subject that he/she is passionate about comes
    > before the "council". These folks probably don't want to participate
    > in the highly competitive environment of Python dev. However they may
    > have very good ideas. I think we are doing this community a dis
    > service by not giving these voices an outlet.
    >
    > We need either some way to vote outside of Python dev. i think it
    > would be much easier to just have a site where all proposals can be
    > viewed by anyone and they can offer input without clogging up Python
    > dev with noob questions or bad ideas. Then the "council" can review
    > these suggestions and make a more informed decision. Some might say
    > "well that is what blogs and c.l.py is for" and i say wrong. I believe
    > more folks would get involved if they felt that the medium was real.
    > c.l.py is not that place (although it could be with some changes) and
    > python.dev is not that place.
    >
    > I am open to any ideas you may have.



    Brett Cannon used to (still does?) prepare twice monthly summaries of
    activity on python-dev which provided insight as to what was happening
    on that side of things. I don't know if he or anyone else still does
    so, but if so, a copy to this list would at least let everyone know if
    something was happening that you might want to weigh in on.

    see http://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/43893

    Emile
     
    Emile van Sebille, Jan 18, 2011
    #12
  13. On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:33:45 -0800 (PST)
    rantingrick <> wrote:
    >
    > On Jan 18, 11:56 am, Antoine Pitrou <> wrote:
    > > On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:10:48 -0800 (PST)
    > >
    > > rantingrick <> wrote:
    > >
    > > > Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    > > > solutions--

    > >
    > > Take a look athttp://docs.python.org/devguide/#contributing

    >
    > Thanks for this link Antoine however i think you missed the point of
    > my post.


    You did say "I want to join in".

    > What i would like to see is an forum where the "noob" to
    > "average" python programmer can voice his/her opinion about the
    > current state or future state of Pythons syntax, stdlib, goals and
    > dreams, etc, al the while not fearing attack from all sides.


    Well the only way for that to happen is to put it up yourself. Or to
    gather some people around you to put it up together.

    Regards

    Antoine.
     
    Antoine Pitrou, Jan 18, 2011
    #13
  14. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 12:55 pm, Emile van Sebille <> wrote:
    > On 1/18/2011 9:10 AM rantingrick said...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Jan 18, 10:54 am, MRAB<>  wrote:

    >
    > >> Decisions are made after open discussion (although we're not sure about
    > >> "move to end" :)). You shouldn't complain about not being consulted if
    > >> you don't take the time to join in...

    >
    > > Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    > > solutions-- however python-dev is a dangerous place for the
    > > uninitiated. And we can't have thousands and thousands of posts
    > > clogging up the main pool because that would only serve to slow the
    > > process to a grinding hault.

    >
    > > However, we need some way that the average Python programmer can speak
    > > up and be heard when any subject that he/she is passionate about comes
    > > before the "council". These folks probably don't want to participate
    > > in the highly competitive environment of Python dev. However they may
    > > have very good ideas. I think we are doing this community a dis
    > > service by not giving these voices an outlet.

    >
    > > We need either some way to vote outside of Python dev. i think it
    > > would be much easier to just have a site where all proposals can be
    > > viewed by anyone and they can offer input without clogging up Python
    > > dev with noob questions or bad ideas. Then the "council" can review
    > > these suggestions and make a more informed decision. Some might say
    > > "well that is what blogs and c.l.py is for" and i say wrong. I believe
    > > more folks would get involved if they felt that the medium was real.
    > > c.l.py is not that place (although it could be with some changes) and
    > > python.dev is not that place.

    >
    > > I am open to any ideas you may have.

    >
    > Brett Cannon used to (still does?) prepare twice monthly summaries of
    > activity on python-dev which provided insight as to what was happening
    > on that side of things.  I don't know if he or anyone else still does
    > so, but if so, a copy to this list would at least let everyone know if
    > something was happening that you might want to weigh in on.
    >
    > seehttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/43893
    >
    > Emile


    That is dated 2002? :D

    Thanks for offering a suggestion it was very welcome however i need to
    emphasize that what i am proposing is sort of "community discussion
    suggestion box". Like a "Python Suggestions" group or something. Where
    any and all suggestions, rants, complaints, ideas, etc, are welcome
    from anyone without fear of reprisals.

    However, in order for this to succeed the "elite" must take the time
    to actually read it. Maybe we could have some trusted "proof readers"
    who could sift out the spam and useless stuff and then send a modified
    version to the senate for congressional reviewing. Of course at that
    point the senate can further narrow down the list before sending over
    to the white house. This is the only way (short of sending out
    warnings in the python releases) that you can actually get a feel for
    what Joe and Jane Python programmer are happy with.
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #14
  15. nn

    MRAB Guest

    On 18/01/2011 19:22, rantingrick wrote:
    > On Jan 18, 12:55 pm, Emile van Sebille<> wrote:
    >> On 1/18/2011 9:10 AM rantingrick said...
    >>
    >>> On Jan 18, 10:54 am, MRAB<> wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Decisions are made after open discussion (although we're not sure about
    >>>> "move to end" :)). You shouldn't complain about not being consulted if
    >>>> you don't take the time to join in...

    >>
    >>> Well don't get wrong i want to join in --not that i have all the
    >>> solutions-- however python-dev is a dangerous place for the
    >>> uninitiated. And we can't have thousands and thousands of posts
    >>> clogging up the main pool because that would only serve to slow the
    >>> process to a grinding hault.

    >>
    >>> However, we need some way that the average Python programmer can speak
    >>> up and be heard when any subject that he/she is passionate about comes
    >>> before the "council". These folks probably don't want to participate
    >>> in the highly competitive environment of Python dev. However they may
    >>> have very good ideas. I think we are doing this community a dis
    >>> service by not giving these voices an outlet.

    >>
    >>> We need either some way to vote outside of Python dev. i think it
    >>> would be much easier to just have a site where all proposals can be
    >>> viewed by anyone and they can offer input without clogging up Python
    >>> dev with noob questions or bad ideas. Then the "council" can review
    >>> these suggestions and make a more informed decision. Some might say
    >>> "well that is what blogs and c.l.py is for" and i say wrong. I believe
    >>> more folks would get involved if they felt that the medium was real.
    >>> c.l.py is not that place (although it could be with some changes) and
    >>> python.dev is not that place.

    >>
    >>> I am open to any ideas you may have.

    >>
    >> Brett Cannon used to (still does?) prepare twice monthly summaries of
    >> activity on python-dev which provided insight as to what was happening
    >> on that side of things. I don't know if he or anyone else still does
    >> so, but if so, a copy to this list would at least let everyone know if
    >> something was happening that you might want to weigh in on.
    >>
    >> seehttp://article.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.devel/43893
    >>
    >> Emile

    >
    > That is dated 2002? :D
    >
    > Thanks for offering a suggestion it was very welcome however i need to
    > emphasize that what i am proposing is sort of "community discussion
    > suggestion box". Like a "Python Suggestions" group or something. Where
    > any and all suggestions, rants, complaints, ideas, etc, are welcome
    > from anyone without fear of reprisals.
    >
    > However, in order for this to succeed the "elite" must take the time
    > to actually read it. Maybe we could have some trusted "proof readers"
    > who could sift out the spam and useless stuff and then send a modified
    > version to the senate for congressional reviewing. Of course at that
    > point the senate can further narrow down the list before sending over
    > to the white house. This is the only way (short of sending out
    > warnings in the python releases) that you can actually get a feel for
    > what Joe and Jane Python programmer are happy with.
    >

    The Python community are volunteers. Nothing gets done until someone
    volunteers to do it. The "suggestion box" is your idea. Why don't you
    set it up and report back?
     
    MRAB, Jan 18, 2011
    #15
  16. nn

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 1/18/2011 11:27 AM, rantingrick wrote:
    > On Jan 18, 6:46 am, Antoine Pitrou<> wrote:
    >
    >> Design considerations? Where were they discussed?


    I far as I know, nowhere until that post in this thread.

    > They were never discussed with the bulk of this community and that is
    > part of what i want to change. We have a very small group of folks
    > making all the decisions and that is fine. However this small group of
    > "privileged" folks needs to gather input from the rest of us
    > (peasants) on the value of such changes before making rash decisions.


    When proposed features are listed on the tracker, as I think this one
    should have been, anyone who registers can comment. Real names are
    strongly preferred (and required for elevated tracker and repository
    access).

    > Currently we have a closed set of intellectual inbreeding that is
    > rotting the community gene pool.


    Do you actually believe this nonsense, or are you just ranting for effect?

    In 2010, 20 people were granted commit access. We have 2 more new and
    active people this month. The active subset of these 22 comprise a
    substantial fraction of active developers. Without a constant influx of
    new people, the Python project would slowly die as people left to do
    other things.

    One way to demonstrate the needed technical and social skills for commit
    access is to participate on the tracker with comments, reviews, and patches.

    > We need more diversity in this
    > "milkshake" to bring about and foster healthy ideas.


    Python leaders already know we need more diversity of knowledge and
    skills to target Python at diverse platforms with diverse batteries.
    Last summer Guido said that we should be a bit more liberal with commit
    access. Right now, Brett Cannon is working under a PSF grant to greatly
    improve the developer docs so new developers can more easily get up to
    speed. One of the stated goals of moving the repository from svn to hg
    (a non-trivial project) is to make it easier for more people to
    contribute, with or without 'commit privileges'.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Jan 18, 2011
    #16
  17. On 2011-01-18, MRAB <> wrote:
    > On 18/01/2011 19:22, rantingrick wrote:


    >> Thanks for offering a suggestion it was very welcome however i need to
    >> emphasize that what i am proposing is sort of "community discussion
    >> suggestion box". Like a "Python Suggestions" group or something. Where
    >> any and all suggestions, rants, complaints, ideas, etc, are welcome
    >> from anyone without fear of reprisals.
    >>
    >> However, in order for this to succeed the "elite" must take the time
    >> to actually read it. Maybe we could have some trusted "proof readers"
    >> who could sift out the spam and useless stuff and then send a modified
    >> version to the senate for congressional reviewing. Of course at that
    >> point the senate can further narrow down the list before sending over
    >> to the white house. This is the only way (short of sending out
    >> warnings in the python releases) that you can actually get a feel for
    >> what Joe and Jane Python programmer are happy with.


    > The Python community are volunteers. Nothing gets done until someone
    > volunteers to do it. The "suggestion box" is your idea. Why don't you
    > set it up and report back?


    He goes by the name of "ranting rick", and you're suggesting that
    instead of talking he rolls up his sleeves and does something.

    I suspect you're barking into the wind...

    --
    Grant Edwards grant.b.edwards Yow! Yes, but will I
    at see the EASTER BUNNY in
    gmail.com skintight leather at an
    IRON MAIDEN concert?
     
    Grant Edwards, Jan 18, 2011
    #17
  18. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 3:05 pm, MRAB <> wrote:

    > The Python community are volunteers. Nothing gets done until someone
    > volunteers to do it. The "suggestion box" is your idea. Why don't you
    > set it up and report back?


    Agreed, i would gladly accept you nominating me as the Suggestion Box
    president. However we need to decide where the best place to put the
    "suggestion box" will be. Sure i could open a website called
    "pythonsuggestionbox.com" however i doubt anybody that *needs* to find
    it ever would. Heck i would feel "lucky" if a few trolls dropped by
    and asked for the GIL to be removed. ;-)

    In light of that, the only place --and i would argue the best place--
    is the official website with a nice link on the home page although i
    don't expect that will happen. In that case c.l.py becomes the winner
    by default.

    Why? Well imagine you are a new python user. Where would you look for
    help after downloading the installer? Of course you might go back to
    check out python.org a bit more. The next logical step would be python
    help and then c.l.py. So either we add a suggestions area to the
    official site OR make this group more accessible to the average user.
    If it were my choice, i would just make this group more accessible to
    newcomers and be done with it. Much eaiser, much less work, and more
    results will be produced.

    How can we make c.l.py more accessible you ask? Well a good start
    would be for some of the well known "elites" to make a public
    announcement. If we could convince Guido to make a speech that would
    be wonderful however i know he cannot do everything.

    """
    In this statement we must stress that a new age of community has
    dawned -- an age of freedom. That all pythoneers are created equal and
    in the image of Guido. No, not of his physical image, but of his
    vision, his wisdom, and his compassion. That we will admonish those
    that wish to belittle the most feeble among us and elevate those who
    would carry the torch of community at the very expense of their own
    selfless vanity. That we are moving forward as a collective group
    united in vision, in spirit, and in solidarity for the future
    evolution of Python -- and for the greater good of all programming
    languages!
    """

    Once we get c.l.py back on track i believe it will take some time but
    eventually the masses will return and rejoin our efforts. New users
    will mold into he community and we shall all reape the benefits.
    Hopefully with enough good will and collaboration we can do great
    things and save Python from an untimely demise. However we must act
    quickly, because the time is ticking away...
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #18
  19. nn

    rantingrick Guest

    On Jan 18, 3:07 pm, Terry Reedy <> wrote:
    > On 1/18/2011 11:27 AM, rantingrick wrote:


    > When proposed features are listed on the tracker, as I think this one
    > should have been, anyone who registers can comment. Real names are
    > strongly preferred (and required for elevated tracker and repository
    > access).


    Agreed. However you cannot expect the ordinary python programmers to
    follow the tracker. They are not a political as we. However they do
    have a voice and we must listen. How can we call ourselves a community
    when there exists no means by which the "real" users can express
    themselves?


    > > Currently we have a closed set of intellectual inbreeding that is
    > > rotting the community gene pool.

    >
    > Do you actually believe this nonsense, or are you just ranting for effect?


    This was a strong statement and it was meant to be strong. On on the
    face of it some might take it as an insult to the intelligence of our
    leaders -- i can assure you that is not the case! Of course we have
    good people at the top, however they are not hearing the voices
    screaming from below. They are making decisions in a vacuum. This
    cannot produce positive results for very much longer. I fear we have
    already begun the downward spiral as a community. We must get a grip
    and pull ourselves together before inertia rips us apart at the seams.


    > One way to demonstrate the needed technical and social skills for commit
    > access is to participate on the tracker with comments, reviews, and patches.


    We cannot even discuss the tracker until we fix this abomination
    called c.l.py. We need to focus on c.l.py. We need to get it back on
    track. And i want everyone to participate even the outright bullies
    and predators (if they can tone done the rhetoric and be nice again!).
    We as a community are existing in a vacuum. Likewise Python dev is
    existing in a vacuum. However both of us are in parallel universes. We
    must combine the head with the tail or we have nothing but component
    parts. Can a car function without wheels? Can a plane function without
    it's wings? No, an we are just component parts idle in some
    intellectual factory collecting dust!


    >  > We need more diversity in this
    >
    > > "milkshake" to bring about and foster healthy ideas.

    >
    > Python leaders already know we need more diversity of knowledge and
    > skills to target Python at diverse platforms with diverse batteries.
    > Last summer Guido said that we should be a bit more liberal with commit
    > access. Right now, Brett Cannon is working under a PSF grant to greatly
    > improve the developer docs so new developers can more easily get up to
    > speed. One of the stated goals of moving the repository from svn to hg
    > (a non-trivial project) is to make it easier for more people to
    > contribute, with or without 'commit privileges'.


    This is a great advancement! Keep them coming!
     
    rantingrick, Jan 18, 2011
    #19
  20. nn

    Terry Reedy Guest

    On 1/18/2011 6:22 PM, rantingrick wrote:

    > This was a strong statement and it was meant to be strong.


    However, it was falso.

    > We cannot even discuss the tracker until we fix this abomination
    > called c.l.py.


    I have nothing directly to do with c.l.p and care nothing for it. I read
    the gmane.comp.python.general mirror of python-list, which filters out
    some of the worse of the input from c.l.p. I mostly focus on getting
    real work done on the tracker and repository and am only temporarily
    spending this much time here as a diversion.

    --
    Terry Jan Reedy
     
    Terry Reedy, Jan 18, 2011
    #20
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