new article

Discussion in 'Ruby' started by pat eyler, May 24, 2005.

  1. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,=20
    recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:

    http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html

    (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).


    I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    Ruby things I should be sending their way.

    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because=20
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only=20
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. pat eyler

    ES Guest

    Le 24/5/2005, "pat eyler" <> a =E9crit:
    >Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,=20
    >recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    >article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >
    >http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >
    >(sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).


    I generally am opposed to registering for free content (paid stuff
    is obviously different). One may visit http://www.bugmenot.com to
    bypass registration.

    Good article.

    >I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    >more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    >love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    >Ruby things I should be sending their way.
    >
    >--=20
    >thanks,
    >-pate


    E

    --
    template<typename duck>
    void quack(duck& d) { d.quack(); }
    ES, May 24, 2005
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On 5/24/05, ES <> wrote:

    > I generally am opposed to registering for free content (paid stuff
    > is obviously different).


    IBM probably wouldn't mind if you pay them for reading this article.

    --=20
    Gavri
    http://livejournal.com/users/ga_woo
    Gavri Fernandez, May 24, 2005
    #3
  4. pat eyler ha scritto:
    > Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,
    > recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    > article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >
    > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >
    > (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).
    >
    >
    > I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    > more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    > love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    > Ruby things I should be sending their way.
    >


    I think it is a nice article.
    OTOH I'd have loved to see some information on how to test this for
    network problems, since a friend of mine just had this kind of problems:
    how to be sure that my code won't bomb down if the dns goes mad or the
    network interface breaks or whatever? But probably this is out of the
    scope of the article.

    Also, why are you putting the mock data in the DATA pseudofile instead
    of a real external file ?
    gabriele renzi, May 24, 2005
    #4
  5. pat eyler

    Ara.T.Howard Guest

    --8323328-1433360132-1116959907=:23496
    Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="8323328-1433360132-1116959907=:23496"

    This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text,
    while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

    --8323328-1433360132-1116959907=:23496
    Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=X-UNKNOWN; format=flowed
    Content-Transfer-Encoding: QUOTED-PRINTABLE

    On Wed, 25 May 2005, ES wrote:

    >
    > Le 24/5/2005, "pat eyler" <> a =E9crit:
    >> Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,
    >> recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    >> article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >>
    >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >>
    >> (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).

    >
    > I generally am opposed to registering for free content (paid stuff
    > is obviously different). One may visit http://www.bugmenot.com to
    > bypass registration.


    bless you.

    -a
    --=20
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D
    | email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov
    | phone :: 303.497.6469
    | My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.
    | --Tenzin Gyatso
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D

    --8323328-1433360132-1116959907=:23496--
    --8323328-1433360132-1116959907=:23496--
    Ara.T.Howard, May 24, 2005
    #5
  6. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 5/24/05, Ara.T.Howard <> wrote:
    > On Wed, 25 May 2005, ES wrote:
    > > Le 24/5/2005, "pat eyler" <> a =E9crit:
    > >> (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).

    > >
    > > I generally am opposed to registering for free content (paid stuff
    > > is obviously different). One may visit http://www.bugmenot.com to
    > > bypass registration.

    >=20
    > bless you.


    seconded.

    >=20
    > -a
    > --
    > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    > | email :: ara [dot] t [dot] howard [at] noaa [dot] gov
    > | phone :: 303.497.6469
    > | My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness.
    > | --Tenzin Gyatso
    > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=

    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
    =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
    >=20
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #6
  7. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 5/24/05, gabriele renzi <> wrote:
    > I think it is a nice article.
    > OTOH I'd have loved to see some information on how to test this for
    > network problems, since a friend of mine just had this kind of problems:
    > how to be sure that my code won't bomb down if the dns goes mad or the
    > network interface breaks or whatever? But probably this is out of the
    > scope of the article.


    Yeah, out of scope for this one, but it sounds like an interesting problem=
    =20
    to write about. I think mock objects are the right answer.

    >=20
    > Also, why are you putting the mock data in the DATA pseudofile instead
    > of a real external file ?


    For a small amount of data, using the DATA pseudofile was easier=20
    (keeping everything together), but as r43 has grown, I'm getting ready to=
    =20
    split it out into a separate file.

    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #7
  8. pat eyler

    James Britt Guest

    pat eyler wrote:
    > Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,
    > recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    > article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >
    > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >
    > (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).
    >
    >
    > I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    > more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    > love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    > Ruby things I should be sending their way.


    I just started going through the article, but (as is my inclination) I
    took a peek at the Resources page, and I'm curious why ruby-doc.org
    wasn't listed.

    Thanks,

    James Britt

    --

    http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
    http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
    http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
    http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
    James Britt, May 24, 2005
    #8
  9. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 5/24/05, James Britt <> wrote:
    >=20
    > I just started going through the article, but (as is my inclination) I
    > took a peek at the Resources page, and I'm curious why ruby-doc.org
    > wasn't listed.


    Braino on my part. I think that I make less use of ruby-doc.org=20
    than I should. I'll try to change my personal usage habit, and will
    make sure it shows up in future articles.

    >=20
    > Thanks,
    >=20
    > James Britt
    >=20
    > --
    >=20
    > http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
    > http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
    > http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
    > http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #9
  10. pat eyler ha scritto:
    > On 5/24/05, gabriele renzi <> wrote:
    >
    >>I think it is a nice article.
    >>OTOH I'd have loved to see some information on how to test this for
    >>network problems, since a friend of mine just had this kind of problems:
    >>how to be sure that my code won't bomb down if the dns goes mad or the
    >>network interface breaks or whatever? But probably this is out of the
    >>scope of the article.

    >
    >
    > Yeah, out of scope for this one, but it sounds like an interesting problem
    > to write about. I think mock objects are the right answer.
    >


    I'm waiting for it :)

    >>Also, why are you putting the mock data in the DATA pseudofile instead
    >>of a real external file ?

    >
    >
    > For a small amount of data, using the DATA pseudofile was easier
    > (keeping everything together), but as r43 has grown, I'm getting ready to
    > split it out into a separate file.


    I see, thanks for the answer
    gabriele renzi, May 24, 2005
    #10
  11. On 24/05/05, pat eyler <> wrote:
    > Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,
    > recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    > article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >=20
    > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >=20
    > (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).
    >=20
    > I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    > more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    > love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    > Ruby things I should be sending their way.
    >=20
    > --
    > thanks,
    > -pate
    > -------------------------
    > We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    > they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    > misunderstand what we said
    > - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    >=20
    >=20


    Just started with your article, and I wonder why you build a
    constructor that tests for object classes, why not simply call .to_s
    on the argument?

    class T
    attr_reader :key

    def initialize(key)
    @key =3D key.to_s
    end
    en

    [T.new(1).key, T.new("1").key, T.new([1]).key] =3D> ["1", "1", "1"]

    best regards,

    Brian

    --=20
    http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/

    Stringed instrument chords: http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/
    Brian Schröder, May 24, 2005
    #11
  12. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 5/24/05, Brian Schr=F6der <> wrote:
    > Just started with your article, and I wonder why you build a
    > constructor that tests for object classes, why not simply call .to_s
    > on the argument?


    I wrote it that way to create some (artificial, but easy to see)=20
    boundary conditions for the article, this test doesn't actually=20
    show up in the released versions of r43. It would have been
    better to be able to verify the format of the id strings, but I
    wasn't able to find that kind of information about them.

    Actually testing it the way I did was a bit of a stretch. In the case=20
    of the test key '1234' you could have a Numeric, but the real keys=20
    all seem to be alphanumeric. It's certainly possible to create an
    Array that would be stringified into a valid key as well, e.g.
    ["1", "2", "3", "4"]. =20

    >=20
    > class T
    > attr_reader :key
    >=20
    > def initialize(key)
    > @key =3D key.to_s
    > end
    > en
    >=20
    > [T.new(1).key, T.new("1").key, T.new([1]).key] =3D> ["1", "1", "1"]
    >=20
    > best regards,
    >=20
    > Brian
    >=20
    > --
    > http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/
    >=20
    > Stringed instrument chords: http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #12
  13. On 24/05/05, pat eyler <> wrote:
    > On 5/24/05, Brian Schr=F6der <> wrote:
    > > Just started with your article, and I wonder why you build a
    > > constructor that tests for object classes, why not simply call .to_s
    > > on the argument?

    >=20
    > I wrote it that way to create some (artificial, but easy to see)
    > boundary conditions for the article, this test doesn't actually
    > show up in the released versions of r43. It would have been
    > better to be able to verify the format of the id strings, but I
    > wasn't able to find that kind of information about them.
    >=20
    > Actually testing it the way I did was a bit of a stretch. In the case
    > of the test key '1234' you could have a Numeric, but the real keys
    > all seem to be alphanumeric. It's certainly possible to create an
    > Array that would be stringified into a valid key as well, e.g.
    > ["1", "2", "3", "4"].
    >=20


    I understand your motivation, but I think it is showing something that
    I would rate as ugly ruby code to the world. If you really want a
    string, you could have used to_str.

    Please don't feel offended. I'm not even maintaining a library and
    have until now never managed to really develop something test first,
    let alone write an article and get it published. I feel that ugly
    maybe is a bit too strong a word, but I can't find anything more
    subtle.

    I think it is important to show good ruby style in articles, and
    ducktyping is one part of good style.

    best regards,

    Brian Schr=F6der

    --=20
    http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/

    Stringed instrument chords: http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/
    Brian Schröder, May 24, 2005
    #13
  14. pat eyler

    James Britt Guest

    Writing about Ruby (Re: new article)

    pat eyler wrote:
    > On 5/24/05, Brian Schröder <> wrote:
    >
    >>Just started with your article, and I wonder why you build a
    >>constructor that tests for object classes, why not simply call .to_s
    >>on the argument?

    >
    >
    > I wrote it that way to create some (artificial, but easy to see)
    > boundary conditions for the article, this test doesn't actually
    > show up in the released versions of r43. It would have been
    > better to be able to verify the format of the id strings, but I
    > wasn't able to find that kind of information about them.



    My own experience in writing abut Ruby, especially in the common case
    where the audience is largely unfamiliar with Ruby, is that practices
    and procedures tend to get a bit skewed for reason of discourse.

    Code is often not as compact is a it might otherwise be because that
    tends to require more background explanation. It's also hard to create
    good demo cases, to find the balance between a compelling problem and a
    7-page discussion limit.

    Has anybody collected tips and guidelines for writing about Ruby? It
    would be good to see more Ruby articles in high profile places (i.e.
    sites outside the Ruby community circle, or in widely-circulated
    magazines such as Linux Journal), but I wonder if people with good ideas
    and useful knowledge hold off because they don't know where to start or
    how to construct a well-organized, (reasonably) self-contained article.

    James Britt
    James Britt, May 24, 2005
    #14
  15. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 5/24/05, Brian Schr=F6der <> wrote:
    > On 24/05/05, pat eyler <> wrote:
    > I understand your motivation, but I think it is showing something that
    > I would rate as ugly ruby code to the world. If you really want a
    > string, you could have used to_str.
    >=20
    > Please don't feel offended.=20


    No worries. I have thick skin. :)

    > I'm not even maintaining a library and
    > have until now never managed to really develop something test first,
    > let alone write an article and get it published. I feel that ugly
    > maybe is a bit too strong a word, but I can't find anything more
    > subtle.


    Inelegant? It's a valid point, but as James Britt points out in a
    new (related) thread, it's an fine line between trying to make a=20
    point and striving for elegant code. I'll tell you what, I'd be happy
    to take on reviewers for upcoming articles. Contact me offline
    if you have an interest in helping refine code or prose.

    >=20
    > I think it is important to show good ruby style in articles, and
    > ducktyping is one part of good style.
    >=20
    > best regards,
    >=20
    > Brian Schr=F6der
    >=20
    > --
    > http://ruby.brian-schroeder.de/
    >=20
    > Stringed instrument chords: http://chordlist.brian-schroeder.de/
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #15
  16. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    Re: Writing about Ruby (Re: new article)

    On 5/24/05, James Britt <> wrote:
    > My own experience in writing abut Ruby, especially in the common case
    > where the audience is largely unfamiliar with Ruby, is that practices
    > and procedures tend to get a bit skewed for reason of discourse.
    >=20
    > Code is often not as compact is a it might otherwise be because that
    > tends to require more background explanation. It's also hard to create
    > good demo cases, to find the balance between a compelling problem and a
    > 7-page discussion limit.
    >=20
    > Has anybody collected tips and guidelines for writing about Ruby? It
    > would be good to see more Ruby articles in high profile places (i.e.
    > sites outside the Ruby community circle, or in widely-circulated
    > magazines such as Linux Journal), but I wonder if people with good ideas
    > and useful knowledge hold off because they don't know where to start or
    > how to construct a well-organized, (reasonably) self-contained article.


    I'm also very interested in this, as (I think) are several other people. I=
    =20
    don't want to bore the rest of the list though. Would there be any interes=
    t
    starting a list for Ruby related 'riting where we could collect tips and=20
    guidelines, pass along leads/prospects, etc.?

    >=20
    > James Britt
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, May 24, 2005
    #16
  17. Re: Writing about Ruby (Re: new article)

    pat eyler ha scritto:

    >
    > I'm also very interested in this, as (I think) are several other people. I
    > don't want to bore the rest of the list though. Would there be any interest
    > starting a list for Ruby related 'riting where we could collect tips and
    > guidelines, pass along leads/prospects, etc.?


    is'nt this the maybe this is something that should go into the "Why
    Ruby" stuff[1]?

    [1]http://rubyforge.org/projects/whyruby/
    gabriele renzi, May 24, 2005
    #17
  18. pat eyler

    James Britt Guest

    Re: Writing about Ruby (Re: new article)

    pat eyler wrote:
    > On 5/24/05, James Britt <> wrote:


    >>Has anybody collected tips and guidelines for writing about Ruby? It
    >>would be good to see more Ruby articles in high profile places (i.e.
    >>sites outside the Ruby community circle, or in widely-circulated
    >>magazines such as Linux Journal), but I wonder if people with good ideas
    >>and useful knowledge hold off because they don't know where to start or
    >>how to construct a well-organized, (reasonably) self-contained article.

    >
    >
    > I'm also very interested in this, as (I think) are several other people. I
    > don't want to bore the rest of the list though. Would there be any interest
    > starting a list for Ruby related 'riting where we could collect tips and
    > guidelines, pass along leads/prospects, etc.?


    I've started a page on RubyGarden:

    http://www.rubygarden.com/ruby?WritingAboutRuby



    James
    --

    http://www.ruby-doc.org - The Ruby Documentation Site
    http://www.rubyxml.com - News, Articles, and Listings for Ruby & XML
    http://www.rubystuff.com - The Ruby Store for Ruby Stuff
    http://www.jamesbritt.com - Playing with Better Toys
    James Britt, May 25, 2005
    #18
  19. Hi,

    pat eyler a écrit :
    > Sorry for posting about my own article, but I'm interested in feedback,
    > recommendations for future topics, etc. IBM has just published an
    > article I wrote about doing test first development with Ruby:
    >
    > http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/edu/os-dw-os-ruby1-i.html
    >
    > (sorry, you need to sign in (free account) to read it).
    >
    >
    > I've got an opportunity to do some more writing for them (how much
    > more depends on how well received/popular the articles are), and I'd
    > love to get some feedback from the community about what kinds of
    > Ruby things I should be sending their way.
    >


    Sorry for the late reply but I didn't have the time to read this article
    before today.

    First, I'd like to say that I found this article very interesting and
    well written (easily understable by a newbie I think).

    But I have a question. The article is entitled 'Test-first programming
    with Ruby' but when talking about ZenTest you tell that it "can also
    work in reverse, loading a test suite and writing code stubs for every
    test" which corresponds to what this is all about. However the examples
    you are showing after that are examples to go from code to tests. Why
    didn't you show how to go from tests to code using ZenTest?

    Ghislain
    Ghislain Mary, Jun 7, 2005
    #19
  20. pat eyler

    pat eyler Guest

    On 6/7/05, Ghislain Mary <> wrote:
    > Hi,
    >=20
    > Sorry for the late reply but I didn't have the time to read this article
    > before today.


    No problems, feedback is always good.

    >=20
    > First, I'd like to say that I found this article very interesting and
    > well written (easily understable by a newbie I think).
    >=20


    Good, that's my target.

    > But I have a question. The article is entitled 'Test-first programming
    > with Ruby' but when talking about ZenTest you tell that it "can also
    > work in reverse, loading a test suite and writing code stubs for every
    > test" which corresponds to what this is all about. However the examples
    > you are showing after that are examples to go from code to tests. Why
    > didn't you show how to go from tests to code using ZenTest?
    >=20


    I did, perhaps it didn't show up very well:



    Letting ZenTest write code stubs for you works the same way. If you=20
    were to run the tool against your existing ts_r43.rb like=20
    'ZenTest.rb ts_r43.rb', it would generate the output shown here:

    1 class R43

    2 def key
    3 raise NotImplementedError, 'Need to write key'
    4 end

    5 def echo
    6 raise NotImplementedError, 'Need to write echo'
    7 end

    8 end
    =20
    Since all that ZenTest is writing for you are code stubs (which look
    a *lot* like test stubs) I probably need to be more explicit about what's
    going on.=20

    > Ghislain
    >=20
    >=20



    --=20
    thanks,
    -pate
    -------------------------
    We are often unable to tell people what they need to know, because=20
    they want to know something else, and would therefore only=20
    misunderstand what we said
    - the Raven (George MacDonald, Lilith)
    pat eyler, Jun 7, 2005
    #20
    1. Advertising

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