New python.org site

[Bertrand Mansion]

Hi,

First some introduction, my name is Bertrand Mansion, I am still
learning Python and I am new to this list. I have been developping
websites since 1995 and I use PHP since 1999. I have been contributing
to open source projects in the PHP and Apple Objective-C Cocoa
framework community. I studied business at school...

I will go straight to the point, I don't like the new Python.org
website. I didn't like the old one neither. The new one is not better
nor worse than the old one, it's just a different shell. But in my
opinion, it misses the point as well.

I am motivated to make a better website for python.org. Why ? Because
I am learning the language and I need a good resource to learn from.
In its current state, I wouldn't want to use python.org because it's
messy and doesn't match what I expect. It simply doesn't match the
quality of the language.

Note that I don't care about the logo, the colors, whatever is
personal tastes related and that's not my point. In my opinion, the
design has to fit a mission. I don't think a list of objectives was
defined prior to the new redesign. Here would be my list of objectives
for a new website, feel free to add your own:

1. Give a clear overview of what's available on python.org
2. Organize content and make it easy to access it
3. Be a gathering point for the existing community
4. Reinforce the Python image among the would-be python developers/users
5. Make it easy to add new features in the future

Each of these points would need to be extended and detailed.

Now I have a few questions:

* Is there a community interested in building a better python.org website ?
- An active mailing list dedicated to python.org ?
- A wiki with some improvement ideas ?

* Where is the current source code of python.org ?
- Where are the scripts ?
- Where are the designs ?
- Is there a SCM available for checkout ?

* Who is currently maintaining python.org ?
- Design
- Code
- Goals and objectives

* Was the last redesign a community effort or the work of one or a company ?

* How about organizing a community contest for both the logo and the
site design ?
Many people are concerned, I am pretty sure there will be a lot of
contributions, even from outside the Python community (for the
fame...). The winners could be decided by half a jury and half the
community votes. There would be a website to be done to take care of
the applications. Maybe some companies would be willing to sponsor.

Thanks for your replies,

 

[Thorsten Kampe]

* Bertrand Mansion (2006-03-11 10:23 +0000)

I will go straight to the point, I don't like the new Python.org
website.

Well, I like it.

I didn't like the old one neither.

Yeah, the old one was a mess.

The new one is not better nor worse than the old one, it's just a
different shell. But in my opinion, it misses the point as well.

I am motivated to make a better website for python.org. Why ? Because
I am learning the language and I need a good resource to learn from.
In its current state, I wouldn't want to use python.org because it's
messy and doesn't match what I expect. It simply doesn't match the
quality of the language.

Note that I don't care about the logo, the colors, whatever is
personal tastes related and that's not my point. In my opinion, the
design has to fit a mission. I don't think a list of objectives was
defined prior to the new redesign. Here would be my list of objectives
for a new website, feel free to add your own:

1. Give a clear overview of what's available on python.org
2. Organize content and make it easy to access it
3. Be a gathering point for the existing community
4. Reinforce the Python image among the would-be python developers/users
5. Make it easy to add new features in the future

Good points.

Each of these points would need to be extended and detailed.

Now I have a few questions:
[...]

There have recently been threads here about the website. Maybe the
discussion there gives you some information needed:

* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#11fd0062787e374c
* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#2696c44b8385a8e8
* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#667bb15d53f0c555

 

[Bertrand Mansion]

There have recently been threads here about the website. Maybe the
discussion there gives you some information needed:

* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#11fd0062787e374c
* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#2696c44b8385a8e8
* http://groups.google.com/group/comp...n+insubject:python.org&hl=en#667bb15d53f0c555

I have read those, they look like Slashdot comments where you get some
people trying to post a good joke... They don't answer my simple
questions:

1. Who is maintaining python.org ?

2. Where is the site code/design available ?

3. Is the last redesign a solo or a community effort ?

 

[skip]

Bertrand> 1. Who is maintaining python.org ?

Start with mail to (e-mail address removed).

Bertrand> 2. Where is the site code/design available ?

It's in Subversion. Start here:

http://psf.pollenation.net/

Bertrand> 3. Is the last redesign a solo or a community effort ?

Small community. One person did the bulk of the work. A sprint at the
recent PyCon a week ago finished many things off and got a lot of content
converted from the old site to the new. Stuff that hasn't yet been
converted and hasn't had proper redirects set up falls through to the old
site (that is obvious when it happens). Hopefully the number of pages where
that occurs is dropping.

Now the developers are tackling a lot of bug reports, converting the last
content and fixing redirect problems.

The conversion has been particularly challenging because not only was the
site redesigned from an appearance standpoint, it was restructured (almost
all content got new URLs) and a new content management system was written to
support the content (http://pyramid.pollenation.net/). Oh, the Subversion
repository holding the content changed as well.

Skip

 

[=?iso-8859-1?q?Luis_M._Gonz=E1lez?=]

I wouldn't want to sound like I'm criticizing other people's work.
To those who offered their time to create this site, which is quite an
improvement over the old one, thank you!

However, I like the idea of a contest. Both for the site and for the
logo.
Perhaps something cool could come up from the new crop of
Django/TurboGears fans our there...

For many people, these things may seem superfluos or not important at
all, but good marketing and good design helps to create an image and an
identity.

 

[Steve Holden]

I wouldn't want to sound like I'm criticizing other people's work.
To those who offered their time to create this site, which is quite an
improvement over the old one, thank you!

However, I like the idea of a contest. Both for the site and for the
logo.
Perhaps something cool could come up from the new crop of
Django/TurboGears fans our there...

For many people, these things may seem superfluos or not important at
all, but good marketing and good design helps to create an image and an
identity.

I think you seriously underestimate the work it would take (and indeed
has just taken and is currently taking) to reimplement the site.

"A competition" sounds like a wonderful idea, but suppose there were to
be one, and a winner were to be declared, where do we go from there to
get the winning design up on a server behind www.python.org?

regards
Steve

 

[Kay Schluehr]

I wouldn't want to sound like I'm criticizing other people's work.
To those who offered their time to create this site, which is quite an
improvement over the old one, thank you!

However, I like the idea of a contest. Both for the site and for the
logo.
Perhaps something cool could come up from the new crop of
Django/TurboGears fans our there...

For many people, these things may seem superfluos or not important at
all, but good marketing and good design helps to create an image and an
identity.

I'm >0 on this. And besides the marketing or "evangelizing" aspect it
may happen that a new site is not only cool but also innovative? I'm
just not sure what will follow up? In a public competition among
architects the winner will finally be commissioned to create the
building and earn money for it. What could be the gift to an imaginary
winner of a Python site design competition? Sponsoring is a fine idea
but should banner advertisment be actually a part of the design
requirement?

Kay

 

[Bertrand Mansion]

"A competition" sounds like a wonderful idea, but suppose there were to
be one, and a winner were to be declared, where do we go from there to
get the winning design up on a server behind www.python.org?

That's not the problem IMO.

Before launching any contest, it should be made clear what needs to be
done by contestants. This involves writing an organized chart of
existing (or not) content and detailed guidelines.

For the contest, contestants will get a copy of these guidelines:
- First, second, third navigation levels.
- Python history, positioning, etc.

If these guidelines are clear and respecting these guidelines becomes
a part of the final applications evaluation, then it will be easy to
adapt the winning results to the site. I have looked at
http://psf.pollenation.net, the current python.org svn, and it seems
python.org currently doesn't work with any database backend... It
seems to be just a plain ol' html site built upon YAML files. There
can't probably be an easier configuration.

BTW, this is a interesting read and could be used as a basis for the guidelines:
<http://psf.pollenation.net/cgi-bin/...sources/docs/pydotorg-redesign.pdf?format=raw>

The big part is really deciding what is proposed and what goes where.

 

[Kay Schluehr]

That's not the problem IMO.

Em, why not IYO? Because you will implement it however advanced the
design might be as part of your Python exercises?

Kay

 

[Michael Tobis]

I think a logo contest is a good idea, and I am already working on my
entry.

I could also imagine a stylesheet contest.

The issue is who does the judging and what are the criteria.

Steve, what you say is true. Possibly people who are experienced in
making a six page site for their aunt's catering business may not
understand how much the site implementation is constrained by the huge
amount of existing content, nor what an excellent effort the rework is,
nor what a good product was achieved.

I am trying to make the point that the silly logo cancels out a good
bit of the benefit of the site in appealing to the uncommitted. A brand
that people love is usually a part of a product that people love, and
there needs to be some correspondence.

A pink bunny is a fine brand for flashlight batteries, but not a good
one for motorcycles.

For a language which cannot avoid associations with a ten meter snake,
a pair of tadpoles just says "we don't really mean it, never mind". The
twistedmatrix logo and the pycon logo take advantage of the
associations. The tadpoles try to avoid them, and to make matters worse
pick up a vague and oddly disturbing religious affiliation in the
process. If we are serious about promoting the language, they really
have got to go.

The contest can specify the dimensions of the logo image to match those
of the one currently on the site. The amount of work required to
replace the existing logo with a more appropriate one would amount to
just changing one reference in a stylesheet.

Michael

 

[Bertrand Mansion]

Em, why not IYO? Because you will implement it however advanced the
design might be as part of your Python exercises?

Look at the current code, there is nothing to implement. Most of the
work to be done is related to presentation and content organization.

Now, there are also new features we might want:

- documentation with user comments (like in PHP, Postgres, MySQL...)
- RSS feeds
- Efficient search engine (hyperestraier ?)
- Database backend and CMS

Those will certainly need code. Feel free to exercise your Python
skills on that, it would be more useful than your unconstructive
comments.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Steve, what you say is true. Possibly people who are experienced in
making a six page site for their aunt's catering business may not
understand how much the site implementation is constrained by the huge
amount of existing content

the problem with the new python.org is that the tool makers have treated
it as a 6-page site for their aunt's catering business, and have attempted
to address the rest with manpower.

you may be impressed with people who compensate idiotic approaches
with more man hours, but I'm not. bulk translation of HTML content is
pretty easy if you use the right Python tools, especially when most of
the material can be translated from HTML to HTML.

</F>

 

[skip]

Steve> ... where do we go from there to get the winning design up on a
Steve> server behind www.python.org?

Hey, it's just a "Simple Matter of Programming"...

Skip

 

[garylinux]

Bertrand Mansion said

Now, there are also new features we might want:

- documentation with user comments (like in PHP, Postgres, MySQL...)
- RSS feeds
- Efficient search engine (hyperestraier ?)
- Database backend and CMS

Add examples in the documentation to your list also!!
Yes the php docs are by far much better. Both the examples and the user
comments make them easer to use. On the other hand I can see how the
user comments would add extra work to keep comment spam out.

 

[Armin Ronacher]

I don't like the new python.org

But i have I (in my mind) nice idea.

Dedicate python.org to the language developers and python interna. And
create a nice small page on go-python.org dedicated to the users. It
should *only* feature a documentation with a comment box on the bottom
of each side, a download section and links to important python pages as
well as a nice designed moinmoin wiki.

Regards,
Armin