Note to fellow newsgroup posters

M

Mark McIntyre

Do you think it is reasonable,

I think its reasonable, in an open forum, for people to *read* and
*understand* when someone is making a sensible suggestion. I think its
_unreasonable_ to start ranting about infringement of your rights,
and being bullied, when all anyone has done is recommend you avoid
talking to trolls so as to avoid wasting _everyone's_ bandwidth and
valuable time. You might want to consider which of us is being
selfish around here.

Two things to remember:
1) rights are earned, not innate, You arrive here with none, you earn
credit by being a useful poster.

2) you're pissing off the regulars, which is stupid.

As for you, into the bitbucket with you.
Telling me whom I may and may not
reply to is not "constructive advice."

Grow up, and learn to read.

--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
 
M

Mark McIntyre

[added alt.usage.english, followups not set]

Removed again, don't be offensive.
"Please don't..." is an instruction; there's no two ways about it.

Only to an idiot.

*plonk*
--
Mark McIntyre

"Debugging is twice as hard as writing the code in the first place.
Therefore, if you write the code as cleverly as possible, you are,
by definition, not smart enough to debug it."
--Brian Kernighan
 
R

Random832

2006-11-13 said:
Nope. The word means something to me.

I didn't mean to say it doesn't add politeness, but I maintain it does
not change an instruction to a request. At best, it changes an
instruction to a polite instruction.
 
R

Random832

2006-11-13 said:
[added alt.usage.english, followups not set]

Removed again, don't be offensive.

What's "again"? It's not like you'd removed it before, since that was
the first time I added it.

And what's so offensive? If you really think "followups not set" is
offensive; please keep in mind I only did not set it because I honestly
thought the discussion might be of interest to members of either group
who do not subscribe to the other.

I thought that "followups not set" conveyed all that, because someone
who failed to set up followups for any other reason would not note it.
 
R

Random832

2006-11-13 said:
John Smith said:
[...]
Usenet is community property. Telling me whom I may and may not
reply to is not "constructive advice."

Hear, hear.

And who has told John whom me may and may not reply to? I certainly
haven't. I merely *asked* him not to reply to one particular troll.
Did I not make that sufficiently clear?

Perhaps if you worded it, "In my opinion it would be better not to feed
the trolls." Or maybe, "Experience has taught me that one shouldn't
feed the trolls." No doubt you can think of a better phrasing. Or you
could quote a poem I once wrote:

When a poster won't behave
Put that poster in the grave.
Kill him quick for life is short.
Silence is the best retort.

Or even "It would be a courtesy to the rest of us if you would not feed
the trolls."

Or how about "Please don't feed the trolls"?

I'm really having trouble figuring out why what I wrote was so
offensive. I do not have, and I have never claimed, any kind of
authority in this newsgroup. I offer my opinions -- and for the
record, everything I post here (other than quotations of what others
have written) is my opinion. If people really would prefer that I
phrase it differently, I'll consider it. But if "Please don't feed
the trolls" is seen as offensive, I don't see how sugar-coating it
would help; *somebody* is going to take offense no matter what I say.

Note that my only objection was to the claim that it is not an
instruction. It is one. I did not say it was not a _good_ instruction,
or that you should not have said it.
I do believe that reminding people not to respond to trolls is a good
idea. Kenny McCormack, in my opinion, makes no positive contribution
to this newsgroup; rather, his goal seems to be to deliberately
disrupt it. I'm just trying not to let him do that. In effect, I'm
trying to organize a boycott (a voluntary one, of course).

I still maintain that a killfile would be more effective in saving you
from having to read it, since invariably there will be people who ignore
your "requests".
 
R

Random832

2006-11-13 said:
Two things to remember:
1) rights are earned, not innate, You arrive here with none, you earn
credit by being a useful poster.

You don't think I've earned a bit better than a summary *plonk* for
crossposting to alt.usage.english on a word usage issue?
 
F

Frederick Gotham

Keith Thompson:
If I'm missing something here, please help me understand it. I've
said myself that if somebody misunderstands what I've written, it's my
responsibility to write more clearly. But in this case, after reading
all the discussion, "Please don't feed the trolls" is exactly what I
wanted to say.


First thing I'll say is that most of the participants here seem to be
native speakers of English, or perhaps very fluent.

Keith, people interpreted your statement differently. This could be put
down to their own individual thoughts, or perhaps dialect, or perhaps the
way you worded the statement.

With regard to dialect, one example I can think of is rural Ireland; in
rural Ireland, they use the word "may" when administering an instruction,
most notably in a forceful manner. For instance, consider a situation where
Person A has borrowed Person B's car. Person B brings the car back filthy.
Person A might say "You _may_ clean that car". In rural Ireland, this is a
forceful instruction.

In different places however, "may" has much more passive connotations. (In
fact, I can't remember the last time I heard someone say "may" in Dublin.)

My opinion on the topic is as follows:

Keith is a fluent speaker of English, and there was nothing inherently
wrong with the wording of his request. If it was interpreted as an
instruction rather than a request, then neither party is to blame. Upon
hearing that his statement was misinterpreted, Keith clarified his intent,
indicating that his statement was a request rather than an instruction. So
there we have it, we know what Keith was trying to say, case closed.

To those of you whose interpretation of the statement was different to the
meaning which was intended to be conveyed, you can take note that Keith
Thompson may again in future make use of "Please don't" without inferring
anything other than a request -- it would be logical to assume this. If you
don't like his usage of English, then fair enough, but it doesn't give you
the right to deliberately misconstrue, and to propogate the misconstruance
of, what he said.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have some domestic problems to attend to. ; )

[When I say "Now if you'll X...", it should not be interpreted as an order]
 
F

Frederick Gotham

Random832:
You don't think I've earned a bit better than a summary *plonk* for
crossposting to alt.usage.english on a word usage issue?

If it's any consolation, Random832, I've never found Mark McIntyre to be
anything other than unreasonable and unpleasant on this newsgroup. This is my
own opinion.

Please don't be discouraged to post here. I actually thought your
alt.usage.english was quite inovative.
 
R

Random832

2006-11-13 said:
Random832:


If it's any consolation, Random832, I've never found Mark McIntyre to be
anything other than unreasonable and unpleasant on this newsgroup. This is my
own opinion.

Please don't be discouraged to post here. I actually thought your
alt.usage.english was quite inovative.

I think the issue (he didn't bother saying what it was, so this is pure
conjecture on my part) was that he took offense to "followups not set".
Now, that's not *all that* unreasonable - I just think I deserved
a chance to explain myself.
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Keith Thompson said:

I don't see how sugar-coating it
would help; *somebody* is going to take offense no matter what I say.

Yup. Welcome to Usenet. :)

--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: normal service will be restored as soon as possible. Please do not
adjust your email clients.
 
A

Al Balmer

I think the issue (he didn't bother saying what it was, so this is pure
conjecture on my part) was that he took offense to "followups not set".
Now, that's not *all that* unreasonable - I just think I deserved
a chance to explain myself.

I'm afraid we've come to be a bit paranoid about cross-posting, as
well, though I don't know if that was Mark's objection. I suspect that
alt.usage.english is probably "good folks", but occasionally we get
tied into flame wars that originate elsewhere.
 
R

Richard Heathfield

[a.u.e removed, followups not set]

Random832 said:

And what's so offensive? If you really think "followups not set" is
offensive;

....it's a tough crowd! :) Looks like we're back into plonking season. But
no sweat - just give them a couple of days, and they'll calm down and start
talking C again.

<snip>


--
Richard Heathfield
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29/7/1999
http://www.cpax.org.uk
email: normal service will be restored as soon as possible. Please do not
adjust your email clients.
 
C

CBFalconer

Random832 said:
Keith Thompson wrote:
.... snip ...


I still maintain that a killfile would be more effective in saving
you from having to read it, since invariably there will be people
who ignore your "requests".

A killfile only eliminates the troll proper, not the silly
responses to the troll from others. In my case the killfile
prevents even downloading the trolls output. The idea is to stop
at least some of the trolling, and as long as you continue to amuse
it by responding it will continue.
 
R

Richard Heathfield

Mark McIntyre said:

[...] rights are earned, not innate,

Wrong. Rights are generally *not* earned. For example, you have the right to
remain silent, whether or not you have done anything to earn it, simply by
virtue of the fact that you are a subject of Her Majesty the Queen.

When we speak of "earning the right to...", we are speaking loosely. What we
actually mean is "earning the privilege".

--
Richard Heathfield

"You *have* the right to remain silent. What
you lack is the capacity." - Shrek

email: normal service will be restored as soon as possible. Please do not
adjust your email clients.
 
R

Richard Tobin

[...] the fact that you are a subject of Her Majesty the Queen.

So she says, but I could assert that she was a subject of Ming the
Merciless with about as much effect.

-- Richard
 
J

J. J. Farrell

Random832 said:
Note that my only objection was to the claim that it is not an
instruction. It is one. I did not say it was not a _good_ instruction,
or that you should not have said it.
From what you say, it's an instruction in your dialect of English.
Please accept that it's clearly a request in the dialects used by some
other people here. (That, believe it or not, was a request.) I for one
was as surprised as Keith to see it interpreted as anything other than
a request.
 
R

Richard Bos

Frederick Gotham said:
Richard Heathfield:


While we're being liberal:

To each his or her own killfile.

Speciesist!

To each his, her, or its own killfile.

Richard
 
F

Flash Gordon

J. J. Farrell said:
Please accept that it's clearly a request in the dialects used by some
other people here. (That, believe it or not, was a request.) I for one
was as surprised as Keith to see it interpreted as anything other than
a request.

My experience is the same as your. Even when my boss asks me to "please
do" something I can say no politely, or that I'll look in to it later or
whatever.
 

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