M
Mike Schilling
Daniel said:
I don't understsand it, nor the weird self-righteousness that so often
accompanies it.
I don't understsand it, nor the weird self-righteousness that so often
accompanies it.
N
nebulous99
It was a link to a Web page consisting of a full-page ad!
Perhaps it doesn't. Perhaps it will suffice for the OP's purposes
anyway. Yet you'd have him spend a probably-sizable amount of hard-
earned money even if he doesn't need to. And you'd probably get a
percentage, too -- ISTR that Amazon pays people to spread links to buy
things through Amazon around, when those links are used to make a
purchase. An unfortunate consequence of this is that it motivates
people to spam, and failing that at least to jump to making
recommendations for expensive products and fail to mention free
alternatives when a relevant context comes up.
Probably because you frequently post (links to) ads for books and
stuff here in lieu of freer materials?
It's the lack of disclosure that bothers me. If your post had said
"The free Java tutorial at java.sun.com/wherever has excellent
information on concurrent programming, and if that isn't helpful
enough there are books you can buy that go into even more detail; I'd
recommend xyz, by foobar" I'd not have taken any issue with it.
[snip gratuitous insultage]
Untrue.
N
nebulous99
"It"? Who are you calling "it", thingamabob?
[thingamabob proceeds to imply more insults]
Away and boil yer head.
N
nebulous99
There's a big difference -- we're discussing information and text here
rather than physical goods that are actually scarce. People would not
expect to find a salad for free; or for that matter to find anything
for free after "going to" a store. On the other hand, if someone says
"the information you need is at this URL", the normal thing to find at
the indicated URL is ... the information in question. Not some ad
trying to sell you something, but the information itself, since it
could easily and cheaply be there, and 9 times out of 10 it actually
is. Links to Sun's Java pages and Roedy's site abound in this NG.
Following them leads directly to what someone said would be there.
Then along comes a link like yours and instead of the information
itself is a page saying "We have this information but we won't let you
see it until you pay up". How nice. And no warning of this difference
was in the post with the URL, either.
Same goes for software as for information. People posts links for the
JDK itself, for Eclipse and NetBeans, etc., and readers can follow
those links and download and install away. Then comes that odd link
that instead leads to an ad or a paywall of some sort instead of a
free download.
Links to non-free software or information should be clearly marked as
such in the newsgroup postings, and good free alternatives should be
mentioned as well so that people may make an informed choice, and so
that people that aren't Americans with credit cards and decent amounts
of wealth can actually get some use at all out of your post.
That is not, in and of itself, a problem; it's the sneaky lack of
disclosure that is. When URLs are posted to things that might well be
directly readable or downloadable for free, you should at minimum make
it clear in the case that the thing is not that available.
International and relatively poor people (and this group gets a lot of
students, and students are frequently a) foreign and/or b) poor) can
immediately see that the link will be useless to them. People in
general will know what to expect. Of course, if there's known free
alternatives it would be good to mention these too. Conspicuously
omitting to mention these may do harm by leaving people to make a less
informed choice and denying any useful options entirely to some
people, and may also cast doubt on your motives. And of course if (as
is the case with amazon.com book-purchase links, last I heard) you get
a kickback for referrals disclosure of that, too, is definitely
warranted.
L
Lasse Reichstein Nielsen
It was the link to the official page about the book, as created by the
book author. I'd say it's the canonical reference for that book.
It's relevant and appropriate, and also being an advertisement
doesn't change that.
You'll find that Mr. Pitts have no relation to the page in question,
and as such is unlikely to
That's not commercial advertisement unless he is to gain from someone
buying the books. So far, it doesn't seem to be the case.
If you think there is free materials that should be metioned too,
feel free to mention them.
Then disclose it, if you think it's needed. Don't demand that others
do it.
If everybody recommends something that they have found useful, all
who reads it can make their own decissions.
/L
L
Lew
Lasse said:
In addition to your excellent points, there is a pragmatic angle. As a
discussion group dealing with the realities of Java programming, the reality
is that we rarely get a free lunch, or a free book. In fact, the Java world
is a joy because so much of the information is free, but sooner or later we
impoverished practitioners must occasionally fork over our own personal
hard-earned ducats for much needed information, as in book purchases.
Given that we all face at least the possibility of investing actual cash in
gaining a market edge for our talents, we some of us might value others'
opinions regarding similar financial decisions they've faced. Some might feel
compelled to share their experience, perhaps even altruistically, in the
message pattern, "Since you're going to spend money anyway, here's a
potentially wise use of that money."
Knowing that we speak to a society of engineers and professionals, we are
allowed by the social contract to presume freedom of choice on the part of all
newsgroup participants. In particular, we shouldn't have to disclaim
everything out of our keyboards with "IMHO". First of all, humility is far
over-rated. More importantly, of course we're expressing opinions, hopefully
well informed, rational and benevolent ones. We're all also critical
evaluators of information we read here. I've been mistaken more than once,
and learned from the corrections I've received. I certainly won't have any
more faith in what others post, nor should anyone.
Stipulated.
OTOH, most people here have good reasons for what they assert, often supported
by evidence and rational argument. Why not be convinced by facts and logic
from time to time?
I vote we stop flinging namby-pamby accusations of impropriety in the case of
such obviously well-meant and possibly even useful advice as that to evaluate,
and yes, even buy /Java Concurrency in Practice/, by Brian Goetz, et al.
M
Mike Schilling
I didn't want to invade your privacy by investigating your gender. Geez,
try to be nice to some people.
N
nebulous99
So you freely admit that it was a link to an ad!
I have been doing so, despite being flamed each and every time by
stalwart defenders of the unashamed commercial exploitation of
newbies.
L
Lew
Mike said:
It isn't nice to call someone "it". The traditional approach in English, used
since before Shakespeare's / Elizabeth I's / Sir Francis Bacon's time, is to
use the pronoun "they/them" in plural construction, but gender-neutral
singular meaning.
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
It was not advertising since it was a reply not the original post.
It was appropriate because the book is on topic. It is very common
to recommend books in newsgroups.
It is obviously not a grab for money since the poster is not
one of the authors.
And believe or not, but Amazon is very happy to accept credit cards
from europeans.
Arne
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
Why ?
That has never been the usenet standard !
Even students with little money may find such links useful.
Universities has libraries.
When the students graduate and get a job they may want the book.
Arne
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
"And you'd probably get a percentage, too"
Any evidence to back that accusation up with ?
People can see that it is a book they will have to pay for if
they click at the link.
If you think the cost of clicking at a link and spend 5 seconds
skimming a page is too big a burden, then I don't think newsgroups
are for you.
Arne
M
Mike Schilling
Arne said:
I don't know of things are different in Europe, but in the US university
students have to purchase their own textbooks; and buying other
school-related books is also common.
And these libraries often welcome suggestions for new books to buy.
And books are sometimes available used for a fraction of the cost.
By the way, does anyone know a good term for people who have the same horror
of commerce that Puritans have of sex?
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
Mike said:
It was the same at the university I went to.
Arne
N
nebulous99
Simple -- the ad used an Amazon link, and those are well known to pay
kickbacks for referrals.
The link itself is the bait and switch I was complaining about. A link
ostensibly to free information turns out to go to just a stupid ad,
which while relevant is useless without paying money. Nothing in *the
Usenet post* indicated that the link was not going to give the OP the
information they wanted without traversing a paywall (or equivalent)
first.
[snip judgmental and useless suggestion]
Buzz off. I grow weary of your constantly following up to my posts
with hostility and a generally disagreeable attitude in your eternal
quest to "prove" what a moron I am. Since I actually have a stellar IQ
your quest is futile; you simply can never succeed in proving
something that's not true, after all. Give it up now and save both of
us endless headaches.
B
bbound
It was advertising, because it was nothing but a promotion for a
commercial product. That it was *targeted* advertising doesn't make it
magically not count as advertising at all.
The sleazy thing is to recommend them to the exclusion of potentially
superior (but less lucrative) alternatives.
You forget that people get paid for Amazon referrals. Guess where the
ad leads. And no, it wasn't barnesandnoble.com either.
The vast majority of the world's population is no more European than
it is American, in case you failed your grade school geography
classes. It's also hardly the case that everyone has, wants, should
need, or even can get a credit card *in the developed world*, let
alone the rest of it (i.e. most of it)!
If you (and the advertiser, and others...) are not being America-
centric you're at least being west-centric and neglecting the less
well-off. Between the subprime mortgage fiasco and epidemic rates of
identity theft, an awful lot of people have no access to credit, and
it's frequently through no fault of their own. Arbitrarily shutting
such people out of access to information is cruel and unnecessary;
although it may help line certain parties' pockets, I am not
sympathetic to such parties and such motives. Failing to mention good
free sources of information on Java *first* is borderline criminal.
D
Daniel Pitts
So, in other words, you can never prove your stellar IQ? Come off it
Twisted, you are not a victim of slander or libel, you are simply
overly sensitive to others' differences of opinions.
It is okay to have a difference of opinion. Its just annoying to have
to listen to you accuse those who do of being stupid or malevolent.
B
bbound
Sure it has. It's bait and switch to imply that people can get instant
and free gratification by clicking a link which turns out to only be
to a stupid and disappointing ad or paywall. That's dishonest as well
as rude. If it's information or software that you're linking to, you
should state up-front if it's not free. That includes if there's a
registerwall or anything like that; whether you pay in money or in
being spammed or whatever, it's still not really free in that case.
Doubtful. It's very likely they will find Sun's free online materials
and other free online materials vastly more useful, particularly on
their budget.
Have. And I don't see any relevance here. The link to some Amazon
sales page is obviously of no help to a student in acquiring the book
from any other source than Amazon. If they wanted the book from their
university library they'd have to go there and search, same as they
would have *without* the ever-so-helpful post under discussion here.
When the students graduate and get a job they will probably want to
have a less stupid uniform to wear while flipping burgers -- the
career that most students can look forward to continuing even after
getting a CS degree these days, no thanks to the dot-bomb and other
issues with the western economy these days.
?
=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Arne_Vajh=F8j?=
That does not prove he get a percentage.
You need to show that:
- that specific web site actually participates in a referral program
- that he get a that or some of it referral fee
We are eagerly waiting !
Hmm.
I would say that if your IQ was above 95 you would have figured
out that an entire newsgroups are laughing at you and your posts.
It seems rather obvious.
Arne
B
bbound
I never claimed that; indeed I could prove it by e.g. taking a test in
front of witnesses.
When their "opinion" is that I'm a moron or something else
undesirable, you're damn straight I am.