[OT] dealing with lower level programmers

[Brian Wood]

Rewriting/forgetting US history is not a valid excuse for rudely

I'm not rewriting history. I didn't say that we never had another
national motto. If I recall correctly at one time the national
motto was: Mind your own business.

Many of us recognize the fact that cultures go through phases and in the
1950's this country was under the influence of a religious fervor and
fear of "The Communists".  A lot of mistakes were made and a lot of
"god" injected where he didn't belong.

Some mistakes were made, but making "in G-d we trust" our motto wasn't
a mistake. "Mind your own business" was a fine motto also.

You're free to think whatever you want.  I'll definitely add you to the
list of companies to run away from should I find our paths crossing.
You may as well be sacrificing chickens at your management meetings or
following the newspaper horrorscope.  I'll stick to professionals, thanks.

E pluribus unum

There's nothing wrong with that saying.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[Noah Roberts]

Mind your own business.

Next time you feel the need to prostheletize in a professional
conversation you might take this bit of advice. I'll leave you to your
business, but when you shove it in my face (quite rudely I might add) I
will respond.

 

[JustBoo]

The problem is that I'm having an incredibly hard time communicating
what I need to communicate to the developers on my team.

Doesn't ALL of this really resolve to understanding the "Control Loop"
described in management texts. Did you cover this in college? Have they
stopped teaching this in college?

An old college book I have:
"Management" by James A.F. Stoner - Prentice-Hall, ISBN: 0-13-549303-X
(Gotta' appreciate the guys name.) *Chapter 21, The Control
Process.* More chapters follow about "control."

Everyone generally freaks out when they see management and control in
the same sentence, but as usual, this tool can be used for Good or Evil.

If done correctly I would really call this a "human feedback loop." To
borrow from Control Theory, instead of HIL (hardware in the loop) or SIL
(software in the loop), think of it as "Human in the Loop" and act
accordingly.

A human "control loop" is kinda' like a programmatic control loop.
Except we have weird (hey, they're programmers right), complicated,
irrational "hu-mans" running around instead of - in comparison - nice
orderly electrons.

Just a thought.

The philosophy exam was a piece of cake which was a
bit of a surprise, actually, because I was expecting
some questions on a sheet of paper.

 

[JustBoo]

And you have tried this firsthand? I have. email and instant
messaging are extremely limited forms of communication compared to
working with someone face-to-face sitting at the same machine. The
number of horror stories about getting programming done via
telecommuting totally overshadow the few cases where it has worked.

Further, this dreamworld workflow of (a) writing a spec, (b) sending
it off, (c) waiting, and then (d) getting a complete working software
package on-spec, on-time and on-budget. That's the funniest thing
I've heard in a while. This is no series of events that occurs in the
natural world. It's not a technology problem, it's a human
condition problem.
-Andrew.

So I guess Rent-A-Coder (search web for info) doesn't exist then? And
managing teams of programmers in India is right-out then!

Yeah now I get it, the year I spent “talking to some guys in India” was
a year spend in a dream world. Thanks, I always wondered about that.

"A wise man adapts himself to circumstances as water shapes itself to
the vessel that contains it." - Chinese Proverb

 

[JustBoo]

What I'd really be interesting in seeing is a real life example
of a real program written by a single person which is considered
correct, with a statement as to what is considered correct or
how it is known to be correct.

Bjarne Stroustrup developing a "program" (note the quotes) called C++?

Linus Torvalds creating the Linux kernel?

And just for fun: Paul Allen creating GW-Basic. Bwha! (See if you can
find Waldo in that one.)

Enjoy.

 

[Noah Roberts]

So I guess Rent-A-Coder (search web for info) doesn't exist then?

LOL! I said rentacoder.com as a joke! Have you actually been there?

Probably 90%, or more even, of the projects are, "I need my homework
project written."

Highest bid I see in there currently is 1500, but having spent time
trying to find worthy projects I can say that's very rare. Most are max
bid < 100.

SoftwareXChange was a better attempt. There were actually some real
professionals and some real projects being bid upon. That site fell
through though and doesn't exist anymore.

 

[JustBoo]

LOL! I said rentacoder.com as a joke! Have you actually been there?

Probably 90%, or more even, of the projects are, "I need my homework
project written."

Highest bid I see in there currently is 1500, but having spent time
trying to find worthy projects I can say that's very rare. Most are max
bid < 100.

SoftwareXChange was a better attempt. There were actually some real
professionals and some real projects being bid upon. That site fell
through though and doesn't exist anymore.

LOL. And your point is?

My point is that a system exists and has for years, whereby remote work
is performed and completed via the internet. If it didn't work, then it
would go the way of the flopped site you mention.

 

[Noah Roberts]

LOL. And your point is?

My point is that a system exists and has for years, whereby remote work
is performed and completed via the internet. If it didn't work, then it
would go the way of the flopped site you mention.

I think maybe you're missing the point.

The rentacoder model is not an example of managing teams of remote
developers. The rentacoder model is an example of independent
consultants implementing projects for customers.

Customer X needs his homework done. Consultant Y places a bid. When
the bid is won they gather requirements and does Customer X's homework.

It's not about hiring a developer to work on a project and managing that
project. It's about hiring a development "firm" to implement and manage
the project for you.

Furthermore, the projects at rentacoder for the most part are not worthy
to compare with a real world project. Doing someone's homework for them
is not the same thing as writing a large scale commercial product and
the kind of expertise you need for the two are vastly different.

 

[JustBoo]

snippy all around.

I think maybe you're missing the point.

The rentacoder model is not an example of managing teams of remote

Oh, I remember you now. Never actually reads what people post and hopes
a response with a flurry of words will throw everyone off, and make
yourself feel like you've "won." Remembering that... your topic and its
subject matter makes perfect sense.

Good Luck to you sir, you'll need it.

 

[Noah Roberts]

snippy all around.


Oh, I remember you now. Never actually reads what people post and hopes
a response with a flurry of words will throw everyone off, and make
yourself feel like you've "won." Remembering that... your topic and its
subject matter makes perfect sense.

Good Luck to you sir, you'll need it.

lol, ok.

 

[fft1976]

...

Good programmers are 100x more productive than average ones,
especially on hard problems, as I'm sure you know.

If you've been working only with good ones so far, welcome to reality!
Also, bad hiring practices can lead to teams that are 100% idiots. No
amount of "process" will fix that.

Btw, if you want some leadership ideas, watch "Generation Kill".

 

[James Kanze]

Good programmers are 100x more productive than average ones,
especially on hard problems, as I'm sure you know.

"Average" programmers (whatever that means) are good
programmers.

 

[fft1976]

"Average" programmers (whatever that means) are good
programmers.

I should have said "median". Because of the long tail in the
productivity distribution, "average" are indeed "good", or at least
"half as good". The point is the productivity difference between a
regular programmer and someone in the top 10% or so can be 2 orders of
magnitude.

 

[Brian Wood]

"Average" programmers (whatever that means) are good
programmers.

This reminds me of something from Prarie Home Companion.
They say that all the children in Lake Wobegone are above
average. I wonder if Garrison has ever thought of asking
Stroustrup to be on the program. He could quiz Stroustrup
about programming and take some pot shots at other languages.


Brian Wood
Ebenezer Enterprises
www.webEbenezer.net

 

[James Kanze]

I should have said "median". Because of the long tail in the
productivity distribution, "average" are indeed "good", or at
least "half as good". The point is the productivity difference
between a regular programmer and someone in the top 10% or so
can be 2 orders of magnitude.

Not really. Not in terms of code, anyway, and not in a well
managed environment. If the environment is correctly managed,
in fact, the one or two programmers you have in the top 10% may
actually produce less code, because most of their time will be
used improving the productivity of the other programmers. (And
what makes a programmer "exceptional", or in the top 10%, is the
fact that his presence improves the productivity of everyone
else on the team.)

 

[JustBoo]

I don't think he was alone at it although he was the main author for
the original version. Then a lot of peoples tried it and suggested
improvements to it... and now we are at C++0x...

From what I've read, in the beginning and well into the development, he
was alone. Remember all this was new. What's that old saying (probably
paraphrasing here): "Failure is an orphan, where success has many
fathers." It has many fathers *now*. Back then C++ was not a certain
success.

But I’m not “picking this hill to die on.” Take care.

 

[fft1976]

Not really.  Not in terms of code, anyway, and not in a well
managed environment.  If the environment is correctly managed,
in fact, the one or two programmers you have in the top 10% may
actually produce less code, because most of their time will be
used improving the productivity of the other programmers.  (And
what makes a programmer "exceptional", or in the top 10%, is the
fact that his presence improves the productivity of everyone
else on the team.)

Maybe you've never worked with anyone good or on problems where being
good mattered?

 

[Noah Roberts]

I don't think he was alone at it although he was the main author for
the original version. Then a lot of peoples tried it and suggested
improvements to it... and now we are at C++0x...

C++1x you mean

 

[Ian Collins]

No, C++0x. C++1x is at least five years out.

Do you expect C++0x to be ratified this year?

 

[Ian Collins]

Next year.

Ah, so x = 10!