OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

Discussion in 'Javascript' started by optimistx, Aug 28, 2008.

  1. optimistx

    optimistx Guest

    Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    formally correct answers especially to newcomers?

    If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript

    http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about

    one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).

    The most active posters are listed in the statistics.

    As a comparision the group comp.lang.php

    http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.lang.php/about?hl=fi

    has kept its volume around 2000 posts/ month since its start in 2002.

    The description of comp.lang.javascript is (?)

    "Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language."

    Is the purpose of this group (according to the current activists) to provide
    forum for scientific, advanced level javascript problems, which have not
    been discussed earlier anywhere? Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier' and in the worst case no help is
    given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.

    If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    grow.

    If I had been answering questions here several years I would probably see
    that there are hardly any new questions for me, and it would be enough to
    provide links to earlier postings, or simply answering every potential
    question: 'your question is old, read the links in my signature'. Is this
    the ideal contents of this group in the future? The expert might become too
    much of an expert to get any satisfaction to repeat old answers.

    a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the same things
    year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?

    b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics interesting
    and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?

    I do not provide my real name and address here. If you need it, feel free to
    ask by mail.
     
    optimistx, Aug 28, 2008
    #1
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  2. optimistx

    Laser Lips Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 28, 10:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?
    >
    > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about
    >
    > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).
    >
    > The most active posters are listed in the statistics.
    >
    > As a comparision the group comp.lang.php
    >
    > http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.lang.php/about?hl=fi
    >
    > has kept its volume around 2000 posts/ month since its start in 2002.
    >
    > The description of comp.lang.javascript is (?)
    >
    > "Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language."
    >
    > Is the purpose of this group (according to the current activists) to provide
    > forum for scientific, advanced level javascript problems, which have not
    > been discussed earlier anywhere? Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    > 'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier' and in the worst case no help is
    > given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.
    >
    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    > which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    > grow.
    >
    > If I had been answering questions here several years I would probably see
    > that there are hardly any new questions for me, and it would be enough to
    > provide links to earlier postings, or simply answering every potential
    > question: 'your question is old, read the links in my signature'. Is this
    > the ideal contents of this group in the future? The expert might become too
    > much of an expert to get any satisfaction to repeat old answers.
    >
    > a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the same things
    > year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?
    >
    > b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics interesting
    > and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?
    >
    > I do not provide my real name and address here. If you need it, feel free to
    > ask by mail.


    I totally agree that some people on here are not at all forgiving to
    new people 'getting it wrong'. For instance getting syntax wrong, or
    calling JavaScript Java, and similar mistakes. I think some of the
    frequent posters are too harsh and in many cases are just plain rude,
    and being bigheaded. But at the same time it appears that some of the
    people that come for help often appear to have not even researched
    what they really want to do and subsequently ask random questions
    using all the wrong jargon, and in turn deserve a good drilling.
    I read some posts and get annoyed at the naivety of them sometimes,
    but only when it seems like the person has not really tried to find
    out the correct terms and put in the work that they expect us to put
    in when answering their queries.
    This group has a wide spectrum of users from the complete newbie to
    the veteran, each with his or her own style and principles. I think
    we ALL need to remember that there are no rules which govern how to
    program, just guides which we are free to ignore. There is always
    more than one way to do something, all be it better or worse than the
    next.
    If you want to be respected here you need to be more than just a
    passing wind, you need to have done some homework and have an
    understanding of what your trying to work with, else you can't blame
    the regular posters for being blunt.
    Graham Vincent
    http://cylo.co.uk
     
    Laser Lips, Aug 28, 2008
    #2
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  3. optimistx

    SAM Guest

    optimistx a écrit :
    >
    > a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the same things
    > year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?


    And what to say about given answers not followed by by pupils's thanks
    or appreciation ?
    The "teacher doesn't know if he was listened.

    > b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics interesting
    > and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?


    .... don't believe that.
    Only some of posters are fastidious and play to appear "expert"

    All what you say about c.l.js
    I find it in the french php ng in much more strong way (nobody dares to
    ask of a little bit basic question. The attendance(company) is close to
    zero.).

    --
    sm
     
    SAM, Aug 28, 2008
    #3
  4. Re: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    optimistx wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some
    > unfriendly although formally correct answers especially
    > to newcomers?


    "Unfriendly" is often a matter of perception. Honesty is desirable, but
    often not perceived as such. I find answers that tell people to go away
    until they have learnt javascript most undesirable, particularly as
    participating in the group is one of the best ways of learning
    javascript (and browser scripting) available, and going away and
    participating are mutually exclusive.

    > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about


    Google programmers (and particularly those involved with Google groups)
    are renowned for not being able to total the same data twice and come up
    with the same answer, or achieve accuracy of better than +/- 50% in
    there addition in some cases. Numbers originating with that source
    should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

    > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than
    > 6000 posts / month, but after that the number has been diminishing
    > to under 2000 posts / month quite steadily


    It has never looked that steady to me. But it certainly should not be
    surprising if period following the introduction of a new technology
    should whiteness more discussion of the subject than would be necessary
    after it was, say, half a decade old. Many questions that would have
    been open during the early years of javascript would have long since
    been settled, and the last half decade has seen virtually nothing new,
    beyond changes in usage patterns and new elaborations of older ideas
    (and, of course, new buzzwords as labels for those old ideas).

    > and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).


    If you are perceiving the future you either need to lay off the
    hallucinogenic drugs or to seek medical assistance.

    > The most active posters are listed in the statistics.


    No they are not, at least in the sense that those statistics don't
    represent a list of the most active posters.

    > As a comparision the group comp.lang.php
    >
    > http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.lang.php/about?hl=fi
    >
    > has kept its volume around 2000 posts/ month since its start
    > in 2002.


    What makes a PHP group a reasonable subject for comparison?

    > The description of comp.lang.javascript is (?)
    >
    > "Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language."


    Which is an historical anomaly resulting form that fact that in 1986,
    when the group started, there was only one flavour of javascript and
    that was Netscape's.

    > Is the purpose of this group (according to the current activists)
    > to provide forum for scientific, advanced level javascript problems,
    > which have not been discussed earlier anywhere?


    The purpose of the group is to discuss javascript as asserted in its
    charter, though the definition of javascript (employed by the group as a
    whole) has changed over the years in light of developments such as
    language standardisation and widespread adoption of the (possibly
    standardised) language in browsers other than Netscape's.

    > Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google', 'read FAQ',
    > 'This has been written earlier'


    Not, in themselves, unreasonable responses given the availability of
    manuals, the FAQ, Internet searching and group archive searching
    facilities.

    > and in the worst case no help is
    > given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.


    What are you expecting? Providing help is not the purpose of the group,
    it just may be a side effect of its existence/nature (and very often
    is). And there will inevitably be people who are beyond help, or will
    not recognise it when offered.

    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask
    > also questions, which might have been answered earlier, then
    > probably the volume here would grow.


    If volume represents pure noise then an increase is undesirable.

    > If I had been answering questions here several years I
    > would probably


    Instead of speculating why don't you try it and find out?

    > see that there are hardly any new questions for me, and it
    > would be enough to provide links to earlier postings, or
    > simply answering every potential question: 'your question
    > is old, read the links in my signature'. Is this
    > the ideal contents of this group in the future?


    It has been observed that the best test of your understanding of a
    subject is to attempt to explain it to others, with the success of that
    explanation (in terms of those other's ability to then understand) then
    being the measure of your own understanding. Thus a manifestation of
    people coming to terms with understandings of aspects of browser
    scripting/javascript should be their attempting to present that
    understanding as an explanation to those who do not understand. However,
    for any single aspect of the subject 2-3 such explanations serve the
    desired purpose and interests should be expected to more on to other
    aspects of the subject.

    Given a sufficient turnover of individuals interested in learning the
    subject there would be people at every sage in the process eager to
    attempt to explain every aspect in detail. In practice that does not
    happen as there are not sufficient individuals interested in going
    through the process of learning the subject.

    > The expert might become too much of an expert to get any
    > satisfaction to repeat old answers.


    Yes, so it is desirable for there to be new people attempting to become
    experts.

    > a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the
    > same things year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?
    >
    > b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics
    > interesting and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?


    Yes, yes, and much lese besides.

    > I do not provide my real name and address here. If you need
    > it, feel free to ask by mail.


    Why do you think we would care? We can observe for ourselves that you
    don't have the integrity to stand by the words you utter in public. That
    is allowed.

    Richard.
     
    Richard Cornford, Aug 28, 2008
    #4
  5. optimistx a écrit :
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?


    If at least the answer is formally correct, then it's already a strong
    point - and something rare in some others newsgroups. Friendly tone is
    of course welcome, but has never really be a dominant trait of usenet
    "culture". IOW : I definitively prefer an unfriendly but correct answer
    over a friendly wrong and misleading one.

    (snip)

    > Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    > 'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier'


    And ? Newsgroups are neither free support nor substitute for
    documentation. It *is* expected from anyone asking for help to provide
    evidence of it's own efforts to first solve the problem by him/herself.
    And FWIW, 'FAQ' stands for "Frequently Asked Questions", and here again,
    it's expected form anyone posting a question to have read the FAQ first
    - which is the whole point of a FAQ : avoiding repeating the same
    explanations again and again and again.

    > and in the worst case no help is
    > given


    <bis>
    Newsgroups are neither free support nor substitute for documentation
    </bis>

    > and even harsh unfriendly words are used.


    I personnaly agree this is *usually* not the more constructive attitude.
    But still there are a few cases where being "harsh and unfriendly" is
    the most helpful attitude - in that it may help the OP noticing what's
    wrong with his own behaviour.

    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    > which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    > grow.


    Would it be such a good thing ? The most important point is quality, not
    quantity. FWIW, c.l.py is a mostly newbie-friendly newsgroup, and after
    8 years of being a regular there, I start getting tired of seeing the
    same old basic questions - all fully covered by both the manual and the
    group's archive - twice a week.
     
    Bruno Desthuilliers, Aug 28, 2008
    #5
  6. optimistx

    Beez Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    optimistx wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?


    At first, yes. But as I stay and learn the culture, it's often a
    necessary tone to take with those unwilling to do the research and
    look in the most obvious and accessible topics.

    > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).


    I definitely agree with Bruno, here. Quality over quantity. As in
    anything, weed out the bad and you're left with a small group of
    excellence that can then be built upon.

    > The most active posters are listed in the statistics.


    This just seems irrelevant. A high number of posts does not show
    quality. Look at that lorzils (whatever) character.

    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    > which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    > grow.


    I have a good solid year of JavaScript study under my belt (mostly
    cross-browser compatibility) and I only dare ask questions if I've
    done my research. And that's how it should be. Although sometimes
    it's nice if you are having a hard time researching to ask for help to
    get you started. Those kinds of posts should be dealt with in a more
    respectable manner -- it shows they're willing to do the research
    themselves, but need a kickstart.

    > If I had been answering questions here several years [...]


    Stick around!

    The help in this group is often stern -- and often OP are whiney (as,
    admittingly, I was). People just need to stick around to learn the
    culture. Unfortunately, as has been mentioned before in other posts,
    Google Groups is often the means of discovery of this group and it has
    caused a lot of confusion (I'm still getting used to the
    "differences"). One other limitation is that I cannot do much
    research outside of google groups because I work for a large
    corporation with strict internet usage policiies. So I'm often
    limited in my research.

    I'm kind of glad this discussion was started, though. It's
    interesting to see the active poster's comments!

    Kevin
     
    Beez, Aug 28, 2008
    #6
  7. On Thu, 28 Aug 2008 at 12:19:16, in comp.lang.javascript, optimistx
    wrote:
    >Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    >formally correct answers especially to newcomers?
    >
    >If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    >
    >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about
    >
    >one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    >/ month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    >/ month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).


    Around the year 2000 there were a great many frequently asked Y2k
    questions, so the statistics were somewhat distorted in that year.


    <snip>
    >Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    >'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier'


    When you see the same question, using almost the same words, in one week
    it's natural to get a bit irritated.


    >and in the worst case no help is
    >given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.

    <snip>

    Sometimes people say very silly things and won't listen to reason at
    all. Harsh words are to be expected. (E.g See the recent book review
    thread).

    By the way, the subject of this thread is not at all OT.


    John
    --
    John Harris
     
    John G Harris, Aug 28, 2008
    #7
  8. optimistx

    Doug Gunnoe Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?
    >
    > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    >
    > http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.javascript/about
    >
    > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).
    >
    > The most active posters are listed in the statistics.
    >
    > As a comparision the group comp.lang.php
    >
    > http://groups.google.fi/group/comp.lang.php/about?hl=fi
    >
    > has kept its volume around 2000 posts/ month since its start in 2002.
    >
    > The description of comp.lang.javascript is (?)
    >
    > "Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language."
    >
    > Is the purpose of this group (according to the current activists) to provide
    > forum for scientific, advanced level javascript problems, which have not
    > been discussed earlier anywhere?  Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    > 'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier' and in the worst case no helpis
    > given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.
    >
    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    > which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    > grow.
    >
    > If I had been answering questions here several years I would probably see
    > that there are hardly any new questions for me, and it would be enough to
    > provide links to earlier postings, or simply answering every potential
    > question: 'your question is old, read the links in my signature'. Is this
    > the ideal contents of this group in the future? The expert might become too
    > much of an expert to get any satisfaction to repeat old answers.
    >
    > a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the same things
    > year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?
    >
    > b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics interesting
    > and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?
    >
    > I do not provide my real name and address here. If you need it, feel freeto
    > ask by mail.


    I agree that people can be too harsh.

    Nothing wrong with being direct, but being condescending and
    disrespectful is not acceptable. It is mainly the impersonal and
    detached nature of the "internets" that fosters this kind of behavior.
    If you read a question and it bothers you, just ignore it and move on.
    My 2 cents.
     
    Doug Gunnoe, Aug 28, 2008
    #8
  9. optimistx

    RobG Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 28, 7:19 pm, "optimistx" <>
    wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?


    Yes, but I get even more unhappy with chirpy, friendly replies that
    are poor solutions or just plain wrong, particularly when far better
    solutions have been posted recently or are addressed in the FAQ.

    [...]
    > Is the purpose of this group (according to the current activists) to provide
    > forum for scientific, advanced level javascript problems, which have not
    > been discussed earlier anywhere?  Very often I see 'RTFM', 'use google',
    > 'read FAQ', 'This has been written earlier' and in the worst case no helpis
    > given and even harsh unfriendly words are used.


    Whether you like the tone of responses is really not relevant, by
    participating and exposing your own style to the group we get to know
    each other. Those whose social skills are lacking tend to improve
    over time nearly as much as the technically less competent tend to get
    more knowledgeable.

    I refer posters to the FAQ where it provides a suitable answer, its
    pages contain some real gems and posters may find other stuff on
    interest while they are there. And it certainly saves time - that is
    the purpose of an FAQ, it seems reasonable to use it that way.


    > If the group were such that newbies in js would dare to ask also questions,
    > which might have been answered earlier, then probably the volume here would
    > grow.


    Hopefully they learn to search the archives, have a go at it
    themselves, then ask. If they haven't learned to do that, they should
    be encouraged to do so, it saves an awful lot of time. Also, it
    creates a series of posts that summarise and improve on what has been
    posted before, so everyone benefits.


    > If I had been answering questions here several years I would probably see
    > that there are hardly any new questions for me, and it would be enough to
    > provide links to earlier postings, or simply answering every potential
    > question: 'your question is old, read the links in my signature'. Is this
    > the ideal contents of this group in the future? The expert might become too
    > much of an expert to get any satisfaction to repeat old answers.
    >
    > a) is this newsgroup like school where new generations learn the same things
    > year after year (and teachers get frustrated)?


    Yes, though "teachers" is probably not the right expression. I agree
    with Richard that the best way to learn something is to try and
    explain it to someone who doesn't understand it. It quickly exposes
    the gaps in your own knowledge and is a great learning tool.

    In that way, both the "teacher" and "student" profit from the
    experience.


    > b) or is this like a scientific community where mainly topics interesting
    > and new to advanced js-experts should be discussed?


    Yes, that too. Though often the more interesting topics are in regard
    to programming issues that are more general than the language
    underlying the solution. This group is primarily about the language,
    so it tends to deal with specific issues related to language features
    rather than how to write a web-based enterprise application. Having
    said that, it has discussed strategies for developing applications of
    any size, web-based or not (though not explicitly).


    > I do not provide my real name and address here. If you need it, feel freeto
    > ask by mail.


    That is not in the spirit of Usenet. Don't be afraid, we really don't
    care where you live and aren't about to spam you. :)

    I noticed an "appreciation" thread in the jQuery group, perhaps you'd
    prefer a song? :)


    --
    Rob
     
    RobG, Aug 29, 2008
    #9
  10. optimistx

    Matt Kruse Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    wrote:
    > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?


    Some people who frequent this group and post often lack social grace
    and tact. It's unfortunate, but common for highly technical forums
    about specialized topics.

    The tone of this group is an emergent behavior and cannot be "fixed"
    or "controlled". It is what it is. Resistance is futile.

    > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).


    I would attribute this less to the kind of responses seen here and
    more to the growing use of frameworks and libraries, which often have
    their own support forums. There seems to be less interest, in general,
    in developing a robust knowledge of the javascript language and
    developing code from scratch. So there is less interest in this group,
    where people doing so would find valuable information and assistance.

    Personally, I use to be a very active reader and frequent poster to
    this group, but I do not find it to offer me much value anymore. Other
    than the few threads that offer new insights into complex issues or
    dig deeper into cross-browser issues or common misconceptions. And
    even those are annoying because the posts are often long, the nit-
    picking is abundant, and the personal attacks are frequent. The signal-
    to-noise ratio is just too low to offer much value. IMO.

    Matt Kruse
     
    Matt Kruse, Aug 29, 2008
    #10
  11. optimistx

    lorlarz Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 29, 10:44 am, Matt Kruse <> wrote:
    > On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?

    >
    > Some people who frequent this group and post often lack social grace
    > and tact. It's unfortunate, but common for highly technical forums
    > about specialized topics.
    >
    > The tone of this group is an emergent behavior and cannot be "fixed"
    > or "controlled". It is what it is. Resistance is futile.
    >
    > > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    > > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000 posts
    > > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).

    >
    > I would attribute this less to the kind of responses seen here and
    > more to the growing use of frameworks and libraries, which often have
    > their own support forums. There seems to be less interest, in general,
    > in developing a robust knowledge of the javascript language and
    > developing code from scratch. So there is less interest in this group,
    > where people doing so would find valuable information and assistance.
    >
    > Personally, I use to be a very active reader and frequent poster to
    > this group, but I do not find it to offer me much value anymore. Other
    > than the few threads that offer new insights into complex issues or
    > dig deeper into cross-browser issues or common misconceptions. And
    > even those are annoying because the posts are often long, the nit-
    > picking is abundant, and the personal attacks are frequent. The signal-
    > to-noise ratio is just too low to offer much value. IMO.
    >
    > Matt Kruse


    I agree with you, Matt. The JS libraries have there own discussion
    forums that are very, very, very busy. Since using libraries
    is becoming very ccmmon and even recommended, this is
    drawing people away. The jQuery group gets 9000 views per
    hour during the day and 50 posts per hour.

    But, I also think some here are needlessly conceited and
    (for some reason) correspondingly mean and rude. (Plus,
    a similar conceit is an attribute even of some pretenders.)
    All this makes this forum kind of a rat hole, along with the
    aforementioned problem.
     
    lorlarz, Aug 29, 2008
    #11
  12. optimistx

    lorlarz Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 29, 11:20 am, lorlarz <> wrote:
    > On Aug 29, 10:44 am, Matt Kruse <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > > > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?

    >
    > > Some people who frequent this group and post often lack social grace
    > > and tact. It's unfortunate, but common for highly technical forums
    > > about specialized topics.

    >
    > > The tone of this group is an emergent behavior and cannot be "fixed"
    > > or "controlled". It is what it is. Resistance is futile.

    >
    > > > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    > > > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > > > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000posts
    > > > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).

    >
    > > I would attribute this less to the kind of responses seen here and
    > > more to the growing use of frameworks and libraries, which often have
    > > their own support forums. There seems to be less interest, in general,
    > > in developing a robust knowledge of thejavascriptlanguage and
    > > developing code from scratch. So there is less interest in this group,
    > > where people doing so would find valuable information and assistance.

    >
    > > Personally, I use to be a very active reader and frequent poster to
    > > this group, but I do not find it to offer me much value anymore. Other
    > > than the few threads that offer new insights into complex issues or
    > > dig deeper into cross-browser issues or common misconceptions. And
    > > even those are annoying because the posts are often long, the nit-
    > > picking is abundant, and the personal attacks are frequent. The signal-
    > > to-noise ratio is just too low to offer much value. IMO.

    >
    > > Matt Kruse

    >
    > I agree with you, Matt.  The JS libraries have there own discussion
    > forums that are very, very, very busy.  Since using libraries
    > is becoming very ccmmon and even recommended, this is
    > drawing people away.  The jQuery group gets 9000 views per
    > hour during the day and 50 posts per hour.
    >
    > But, I also think some here are needlessly conceited and
    > (for some reason) correspondingly mean and rude.  (Plus,
    > a similar conceit is an attribute even of some pretenders.)
    > All this makes this forum kind of a rat hole, along with the
    > aforementioned problem.- Hide quoted text -



    Let me P.S. myself and Matt by saying that I have
    been doing JavaScript for ten years and javascript
    applications for 6+ years (I give dozens of them
    away for free to teachers through my web site) and
    yet I have been treated as rudely as possible in
    this newsgroup, and worse. What's worse than
    "as rudely as possible"? Well, add on the fact
    that I have been pounced on by goofy people
    who just did not understand the questions and
    falsely impuned me, in a useless, off-topic,
    and harshing manner based on false understandings
    and related false assertions.

    These same punks were likely "knee-high to a tadpole"
    when I started studying and fully applying JavaScript.

    Indeed the meanness would certainly be a factor of
    problems with this newsgroup and could be THE main
    factor.

    For those who what to escape and go beyond the
    moronic silliness rudeness and boredom of this newsgroup
    can now find a new group on JavaScript applications,
    where the questions will be much more interesting.
    http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps
     
    lorlarz, Aug 29, 2008
    #12
  13. optimistx

    Jorge Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 29, 6:59 pm, lorlarz <> wrote:
    >
    > For those who what to escape and go beyond the
    > moronic silliness rudeness and boredom of this newsgroup
    > can now find a new group on JavaScript applications,
    > where the questions will be much more interesting.


    I see your point, and I agree that there's no excuse for some
    misbehaviours seen here too often, but I don't think that creating a
    new JS group is a cure : asking the people lo leave cljs may just help
    knowledgeable people to spread further apart.

    --Jorge.
     
    Jorge, Aug 29, 2008
    #13
  14. optimistx

    lorlarz Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 29, 1:20 pm, Jorge <> wrote:
    > On Aug 29, 6:59 pm, lorlarz <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > For those who what to escape and go beyond the
    > > moronic silliness rudeness and boredom of this newsgroup
    > > can now find a new group on JavaScript applications,
    > > where the questions will be much more interesting.

    >
    > I see your point, and I agree that there's no excuse for some
    > misbehaviours seen here too often, but I don't think that creating a
    > new JS group is a cure : asking the people lo leave cljs may just help
    > knowledgeable people to spread further apart.
    >
    > --Jorge.


    To argue for the group, let me point out that
    the group is to display the code of full JS apps
    and explain it. This is qualitatively different
    (and hopefully in a very useful and refreshing
    way) from what goes on here. Read the
    description and the public web site for the group
    and perhaps you will agree (and see the need
    for the group):

    http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps
     
    lorlarz, Aug 29, 2008
    #14
  15. optimistx

    RobG Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    On Aug 30, 2:20 am, lorlarz <> wrote:
    > On Aug 29, 10:44 am, Matt Kruse <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    > > wrote:

    >
    > > > Have you often felt quite unhappy here when reading some unfriendly although
    > > > formally correct answers especially to newcomers?

    >
    > > Some people who frequent this group and post often lack social grace
    > > and tact. It's unfortunate, but common for highly technical forums
    > > about specialized topics.

    >
    > > The tone of this group is an emergent behavior and cannot be "fixed"
    > > or "controlled". It is what it is. Resistance is futile.

    >
    > > > If we look at the statistics of this group comp.lang.javascript
    > > > one can see, that around the year 2000 there were often more than 6000 posts
    > > > / month, but after that the number has been diminishing to under 2000posts
    > > > / month quite steadily and seems to be decreasing in the future too(?).

    >
    > > I would attribute this less to the kind of responses seen here and
    > > more to the growing use of frameworks and libraries, which often have
    > > their own support forums. There seems to be less interest, in general,
    > > in developing a robust knowledge of the javascript language and
    > > developing code from scratch. So there is less interest in this group,
    > > where people doing so would find valuable information and assistance.

    >
    > > Personally, I use to be a very active reader and frequent poster to
    > > this group, but I do not find it to offer me much value anymore. Other
    > > than the few threads that offer new insights into complex issues or
    > > dig deeper into cross-browser issues or common misconceptions. And
    > > even those are annoying because the posts are often long, the nit-
    > > picking is abundant, and the personal attacks are frequent. The signal-
    > > to-noise ratio is just too low to offer much value. IMO.

    >
    > > Matt Kruse

    >
    > I agree with you, Matt.  The JS libraries have there own discussion
    > forums that are very, very, very busy.


    The vast majority of questions are about how to do very simple tasks,
    in other words, how to use the library.


    > Since using libraries
    > is becoming very ccmmon and even recommended, this is
    > drawing people away.  The jQuery group gets 9000 views per
    > hour during the day and 50 posts per hour.


    Which could indicate that the documentation is lacking or that those
    who use the library would rather ask fairly trivial questions rather
    than try to find the answers themselves. i.e. they are only interested
    in quick-and-dirty solutions, they aren't really interested in quality
    code.

    Many of the replies are essentially one-liners that could have been
    done much more efficiently in pure javascript though with perhaps a
    few more lines of code. From what I've seen, many of the solutions
    offered may "work" but seem way less than optimal, e.g. in answer to
    the question "Sleep or delay in JQuery" one unchallenged answer is to
    use:

    function anima1(){
    //play animation1, which is 15 seconds long
    }

    function anima2(){
    //play animation2
    }

    anima1;
    setTimeout("anima2", 15000);


    No-one has bothered to correct the error or point out that less-than-
    optimal strategy. Quantity over quality.

    A great number of the posters to such groups have only a rudimentary
    knowledge of javascript - they don't know what they don't know. They
    don't want to learn javascript, they want to learn jQuery or Dojo or
    whatever. When your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail.


    > But, I also think some here are needlessly conceited and
    > (for some reason) correspondingly mean and rude.


    One of your first posts here was to state "...once you totally remove
    JS from a web page, and learn the shortcuts and efficiencies provided
    by a library like jQuery..."

    Yeah, it got a few chuckles. Your relationship with the group has
    gone downhill rapidly from there, particularly when your rosy view of
    jQuery was challenged - it takes two to tango.

    You may note that Matt Kruse has defended jQuery here too, but with a
    realistic acceptance of its short comings. If he wants to use it, good
    for him.

    I have posted in other groups and if I dare to challenge any of the
    stuff posted I get told off, even advised to leave the group. Their
    friendliness is very much skin deep.


    >  (Plus,
    > a similar conceit is an attribute even of some pretenders.)
    > All this makes this forum kind of a rat hole, along with the
    > aforementioned problem.


    Have a nice day y'all. :)


    --
    Rob
     
    RobG, Aug 29, 2008
    #15
  16. optimistx

    dhtml Guest

    Re: OT: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    lorlarz wrote:
    > On Aug 29, 11:20 am, lorlarz <> wrote:
    >> On Aug 29, 10:44 am, Matt Kruse <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>> On Aug 28, 4:19 am, "optimistx" <>
    >>> wrote:


    >>
    >> But, I also think some here are needlessly conceited and
    >> (for some reason) correspondingly mean and rude. (Plus,
    >> a similar conceit is an attribute even of some pretenders.)
    >> All this makes this forum kind of a rat hole, along with the
    >> aforementioned problem.- Hide quoted text -

    >
    >


    I would somewhat agree with this.

    However, you're insulting the whole group, claiming to be experienced,
    and not demonstrating skill. That seems a little rude to me.

    > Let me P.S. myself and Matt by saying that I have
    > been doing JavaScript for ten years and javascript


    Ten years you have spent doing JavaScript. That is quite a long time.
    Have you changed your course of learning or study during that time?

    > applications for 6+ years (I give dozens of them
    > away for free to teachers through my web site) and



    The cost of posting code to a website is very low. There is certainly
    much free code on websites. It's one of the first things someone who
    wrote a script will want to do, to show the world their invention. This
    is perfectly natural.

    Having code posted to a website does not make the poster an expert. If
    it did, we'd all be experts. Imparting superior knowledge to impress
    those who are less informed may seem appealing, but it does not make you
    an expert.

    There are a lot of things to learn. This group is focused mainly on
    EcmaScript and browser scripting. There is nothing wrong with that goal.

    > yet I have been treated as rudely as possible in
    > this newsgroup, and worse. What's worse than
    > "as rudely as possible"? Well, add on the fact
    > that I have been pounced on by goofy people
    > who just did not understand the questions and
    > falsely impuned me, in a useless, off-topic,
    > and harshing manner based on false understandings
    > and related false assertions.
    >
    > These same punks were likely "knee-high to a tadpole"
    > when I started studying and fully applying JavaScript.
    >


    When did you start fully applying javascript?

    > Indeed the meanness would certainly be a factor of
    > problems with this newsgroup and could be THE main
    > factor.
    >
    > For those who what to escape and go beyond the
    > moronic silliness rudeness and boredom of this newsgroup
    > can now find a new group on JavaScript applications,
    > where the questions will be much more interesting.
    > http://groups.google.com/group/realcomplangjsapps


    I'd like to hope that I'm not a silly rude moron for staying.

    Garrett
     
    dhtml, Aug 29, 2008
    #16
  17. Re: Why is this group comp.lang.javascript shrinking to <25%?

    Richard Cornford wrote:
    > optimistx wrote:
    >> The description of comp.lang.javascript is (?)
    >>
    >> "Netscape Communications Corp.'s JavaScript language."

    >
    > Which is an historical anomaly resulting form that fact that in 1986,
    > when the group started, there was only one flavour of javascript and
    > that was Netscape's.


    However, since it was brought up (again), I don't think that the tagline of
    a Big 8 newsgroup or its charter could not be adapted to fit reality. (In
    fact, would it not be about time to do that?) Such happens occasionally in
    de.ALL (after RfD and CfV). I don't know what steps would be necessary for
    that in the Big 8 exactly, though.


    PointedEars
     
    Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn, Aug 31, 2008
    #17
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