Roedy Green...

[Roedy Green]

Or just a "teaser" -- quote the first couple of lines, but stop short of giving
away any real content ;-)

If you look at my posts, that is what I do. I usually give a sentence
or two then say "for more detail see ..."

For the truly FREQUENTLY asked question I just give the link. I don't
want to draw attention to it. Ideally, if email were reliable, I would
respond privately to cut those down.

 

[Andrew Thompson]

The problem is that you are making the false assumption that
reading newsgroups = being online. ...
..I must say that sometimes I feel left out of the
conversation when you just post a link.

This is of concern to me as well, but when I
put a question to the group it seemed the
interest just was not there. That led me to
believe it was no longer a problem for the
majority of readers.

Are you sticking by the statement that you are
rarely on-line while Usenetting, or is it more
that it occurs infrequently, but often enough
to be irritating?

 

[Chris Smith]

Are you sticking by the statement that you are
rarely on-line while Usenetting, or is it more
that it occurs infrequently, but often enough
to be irritating?

For me, the latter; such things happen infrequently but often enough
that I sometimes am left out. It was more of a problem in the past when
more of my job involved travelling and teaching; I'd often only have
internet access in the evenings through my hotel phone line, and I'd
spend lunch and breaks reading USENET. I rarely do that any more.

Nevertheless, I'd much rather see Roedy continue to post helpful links
than stop posting. We already have few enough regulars here, compared
to the past.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Roedy Green]

But I'm not sure what the solution is. Personally, I would like
to see a wiki replace the Java glossary so that it is not based
on the opinions, effort, and knowledge ofjust one person.

There's Jon's wiki at http://jinx.swiki.net/1. The real problem is
not many people are willing to put effort into writing it. It takes
huge amounts of time.

People seem to assume that I put errors in the glossary deliberately,
and that if they tell me "your entry on X is all wet" or "your entire
glossary is nothing but shit" they have done sufficient to let me fix
it. Many errors happen simply because knowledge keeps no better than
fish. If you want an entry fixed, provide some alternate copy and
perhaps some backup that your view is correct. If you want a broken
link fixed quickly, tell me the replacement. If you don't like my
opinion on something, e.g. XML, write a dissenting essay and ask me to
link to it. You are probably wasting your time demanding I change my
mind about one of my hobbyhorses. One of the few rewards of doing all
this work is I get a soapbox.

Every once in a while I get the devilish urge to just go on strike for
a week or two and shut down my website to knock the notion out of
people's heads they are entitled to the glossary, much less to dictate
to me how to run it.

I welcome and implement many suggestion for improvments, including
ones rudely phrased. Because of HIV, I have a small fraction of the
energy of an ordinary person. I have keep stopping work to lie down
and rest. I put nearly all of my daily allotment of energy into the
glossary. It is so disheartening to bust my ass to do others a favour
and get shit in return. I want to contribute. The glossary is my way
of justifying my existence, a duty demanded of all gay people. It is
like dealing with spoiled brat rich kids. Admittedly I get 10 to 1
orchids to onions, but its the onions I remember.

 

[Shane Mingins]

The problem is that you are making the false assumption that
reading newsgroups = being online. That is rarely ever true for
me. Right now I am answering this on my PDA in a camper an hour
away from home.

You need a holiday ;-)

It's one thing if you are posting a link to some official piece
of documentation, but in your case it is a link to Roedy's view
of the world.

Is that such a terrible thing? Would newbies (which are the main audience)
get seriously misled by Roedy's view of Java?

That view can sometimes be wrong, misleading,
over-simplified, or out of date.

Are there not even cases of articles on the Sun site that would meet that
criteria?

But I'm not sure what the solution is. Personally, I would like
to see a wiki replace the Java glossary so that it is not based
on the opinions, effort, and knowledge ofjust one person.

I would think that in a Wiki environment the "focus" can sometimes get lost
and it becomes a mindfield of information that can be "wrong, misleading,
over-simplified, or out of date."

And if you are still reading this on your PDA ... stop! Go fishing or
something

Cheers
Shane


--
Q. If you could live forever, would you and why?

A. "I would not live forever, because we should not live forever,
because if we were supposed to live forever, then we would live
forever. But we cannot live forever, which is why I would not live
forever." -- Miss Alabama in the 1994 Miss USA

 

[Roedy Green]

Nevertheless, I'd much rather see Roedy continue to post helpful links
than stop posting. We already have few enough regulars here, compared
to the past.

It is kind of scary the way so many of the old timers are gone.
Patricia, Peter, Bill Wilkinson, Paul Lutus, Jon Skeet, Linda Radecke,
Mr. Tines.

If you have spare disk space, you can use the Replicator to keep a
local mirror copy up to date you can access while offline. It comes
compressed. Won't quite fit on a PDA yet.

http://mindprod.com/products.html#SITE

 

[Jim Cochrane]

There's Jon's wiki at http://jinx.swiki.net/1. The real problem is
not many people are willing to put effort into writing it. It takes
huge amounts of time.

People seem to assume that I put errors in the glossary deliberately,
and that if they tell me "your entry on X is all wet" or "your entire
glossary is nothing but shit" they have done sufficient to let me fix
it. Many errors happen simply because knowledge keeps no better than
fish. If you want an entry fixed, provide some alternate copy and
perhaps some backup that your view is correct. If you want a broken
link fixed quickly, tell me the replacement. If you don't like my
opinion on something, e.g. XML, write a dissenting essay and ask me to
link to it. You are probably wasting your time demanding I change my
mind about one of my hobbyhorses. One of the few rewards of doing all
this work is I get a soapbox.

Every once in a while I get the devilish urge to just go on strike for
a week or two and shut down my website to knock the notion out of
people's heads they are entitled to the glossary, much less to dictate
to me how to run it.

I welcome and implement many suggestion for improvments, including
ones rudely phrased. Because of HIV, I have a small fraction of the
energy of an ordinary person. I have keep stopping work to lie down
and rest. I put nearly all of my daily allotment of energy into the

You must be extremely efficient then. I've only recently become aware of
your site and haven't checked it out in much detail, but it looks to me to
be very comprehensive. You also post a lot to this group answering
people's questions and the posts of yours I've read are of high quality.
Impressive - especially for someone who is low on energy!

glossary. It is so disheartening to bust my ass to do others a favour
and get shit in return. I want to contribute. The glossary is my way
of justifying my existence, a duty demanded of all gay people. It is
like dealing with spoiled brat rich kids. Admittedly I get 10 to 1
orchids to onions, but its the onions I remember.

Well, my opinion of the site from what I've seen so far is:
"Bravo, good work!".

 

[Thomas Weidenfeller]

But I'm not sure what the solution is. Personally, I would like
to see a wiki replace the Java glossary so that it is not based
on the opinions, effort, and knowledge ofjust one person.

Set one up, and see if you can attract enough people. Or use one of the
existing ones (Sun has at least one somewhere and one regular is also
running one). Or set up your own glossary if you are not happy with the
existing one. In short, if you are not happy with the existing things,
produce something better and compete for users.

BTW, I don't see how a wiki would solve your offline/PDA usage problem.
Instead of getting urls to the glossary you would find urls to the wiki
in posts. How come you can't follow the first, but you think you can
follow the later?

/Thomas

 

[Chris Smith]

Set one up, and see if you can attract enough people. Or use one of the
existing ones (Sun has at least one somewhere and one regular is also
running one). Or set up your own glossary if you are not happy with the
existing one. In short, if you are not happy with the existing things,
produce something better and compete for users.

Rather than suggesting that people set up new wikis, why not use the
existing wiki that's connected to these newsgroups, at
http://jinx.swiki.net? There are already contributions there from a
number of newsgroup regulars, and it's not a complete failure. Granted,
I'd like to have a bit more time to contribute to it than I really do;
but it's got a lot of useful information there, and it's certainly not
time to give up, yet.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Thomas Weidenfeller]

Rather than suggesting that people set up new wikis, why not use the
existing wiki that's connected to these newsgroups, at
http://jinx.swiki.net?

That was one of the alternatives I suggested. Quote:

There are already contributions there from a
number of newsgroup regulars, and it's not a complete failure.

I can't remember implying this.

/Thomas

 

[Dale King]

You need a holiday ;-)

I was on Holiday when I wrote that.

Is that such a terrible thing? Would newbies (which are the main audience)
get seriously misled by Roedy's view of Java?

My point was that it is perhaps not the best thing. I think if the Java
glossary existed as a wiki instead of the opinion and work of one person it
would be better. How do we get to that point I don't know. It certainly
won't happen based solely on me.

Are there not even cases of articles on the Sun site that would meet that
criteria?

Less so.

I would think that in a Wiki environment the "focus" can sometimes get lost
and it becomes a mindfield of information that can be "wrong, misleading,
over-simplified, or out of date."

Once again it is less likely as it gets greater review with multiple
contributors and it does not require you to state your case to Roedy to get
it changed.

And if you are still reading this on your PDA ... stop! Go fishing or
something

I choose to read on my PDA so I can read wherever and whenever I have time.

 

[Dale King]

It is kind of scary the way so many of the old timers are gone.
Patricia, Peter, Bill Wilkinson, Paul Lutus, Jon Skeet, Linda Radecke,
Mr. Tines.

I wouldn't lump Lutus in that group. Good riddance to him. He has a long
history of infuriating others wherever he goes. He was seldom ever helpful
here. He preferred criticizing the spelling and grammar of others than
actually being helpful. And then there was the 400 message thread about
double.toString where he simply refused to listen to anyone that was
pointing out his error and instead insulted them.

 

[Dale King]

Everyone seems to be focussing more on that second sentence than the first.
I'm not sure what the solution is. I think there are flaws with the current
situation. I think if it were a wiki that would correct some of those flaws.

Set one up, and see if you can attract enough people. Or use one of the
existing ones (Sun has at least one somewhere and one regular is also
running one). Or set up your own glossary if you are not happy with the
existing one. In short, if you are not happy with the existing things,
produce something better and compete for users.

This is not a competition. My goal is to be able to help people in the most
effective way possible. I am not out to compete with Roedy. I barely have
time to keep up with reading newsgroups right now.

The problem is that anything like that has to reach a critical mass before
it is really viable and usefull. The Java Glossary is way beyond the
critical mass but is still limited by being the sole product of Roedy.

BTW, I don't see how a wiki would solve your offline/PDA usage problem.
Instead of getting urls to the glossary you would find urls to the wiki
in posts. How come you can't follow the first, but you think you can
follow the later?

I wasn't suggesting that it would solve the problem. But it is a little
different when one posts a link to something that is the effort of a number
of people that is more likely to be objective as opposed to someone posting
a link to a something they alone wrote.

 

[Roedy Green]

Once again it is less likely as it gets greater review with multiple
contributors and it does not require you to state your case to Roedy to get
it changed.

The problem is only a masochist can take on the job. There are not
many people out there willing to spend their days writing essays then
getting kicked in the teeth repeatedly because somebody disagrees with
one of their opinions.

I make many quiet changes to the glossary every day based on emails.
Most of the time these are matters of fact or clarification. Usually
they are entries that have gone stale or invitations to rethink
opinions in the light of new evidence. For example, check out the
recent changes to http://mindprod.com/jgloss/designbycontract.html

Since time is money, and because writing such material requires
skilled, experienced people, it is an extremely expensive undertaking.

You can't do it for the approval. You have to do it because you
deeply believe it needs to be done.

The multi-author platform exists -- Jon's Wiki. I even gave him the
right to import anything he wanted from the glossary. Yet it fell down
because there were no people willing to do the bullwork.

I am one of the few people motivated enough to put up with the shit.
Why? The answer may surprise you. My reasoning goes like this. Man is
doing so many foolish things, he is pretty well sure to go extinct in
the next 100 years from the result of just one of his follies. See
http://mindprod.com/extinction.html

We are too stupid a species to turn around. We are preposterously
short-sighted and self-centred. Our main hope lies in the development
of artificial intelligence that will convincingly sell us on the need
to stop our destructive ways. It may be able to accurately and
convincingly model the results of various courses of action.

Nearly all computer languages seem intent on holding back this
process. They want us to create programs the way medieval monks
created illuminated manuscripts. I see Java holding out the most
promise for rapid evolution, with other layers built on top of Java
and the JVM.

Therefore, I am a Java evangelist. I am out to save the world by
promoting Java, and helping people learn how to use it. I also prod
people to think ahead with essays like
http://mindprod.com/projects/scid.html
and
http://mindprod.com/jgloss/bali.html

Java is more accessible to people in the third world than other
languages because of all the free tools. These third world young
people whom I spend so much time with, I trust will be the ones who
actually implement the evolution. The glossary is primarily for them,
to help them get up to speed as fast as possible.

 

[Roedy Green]

I wasn't suggesting that it would solve the problem. But it is a little
different when one posts a link to something that is the effort of a number
of people that is more likely to be objective as opposed to someone posting
a link to a something they alone wrote.

There is precious little motivation for anyone to take on this work.
One perk is the soapbox, a way to showcase opinions.

If you take that motivation away by using groupthink to censor
individual opinion, what appeal is there for the average person who
might do the work?

You have to admit, the main thing that would motivate you, Dale, to do
the work would be to counter MY opinions.

There are a number of similar projects to the Java glossary. You focus
on mine because:

1. I keep posting links into it.
2. it is the easiest to navigate so its the one you tend to use.
3. it is comprehensive. It is one place you have a good shot
at finding what you need. Most of the other FAQs cover
a much narrower ground.
4. I stick my neck out and say things you won't read anywhere else.
I am always trying to give you the big picture.


see http://mindprod.com/jgloss/faqs.html for the competition.

 

[Roedy Green]

I would still like to see the Java glossary turn into a community
project instead of the effort and opinion of Roedy alone. I don't
say that because I have anything against Roedy, but because I
thing it would make it a more valuable resource.

But if even you are not prepared to work on the team, where do you
expect to find these volunteers who will be wiser than me and less
biased who are willing to donate 20 hours each month?

Who would you volunteer?

 

[Chris Smith]

That's why I said that I'm not sure what the solution is. I don't
know how we go to the more ideal solution where everyone
contributes. But I also see the flaws in the current system.

The problem with the wiki is that it never reached critical mass
and then its champion went over to the dark side.

Then I volunteer as the champion. I've put a lot of effort into that
site as well and I'd like to see it live.

Roedy, I know we've asked you this in the past and I've forgotten your
answer, but may we copy content from your glossary to JINX? If so, I'll
embark on the monumental task of trying to move a lot of it over (but
probably only the most directly Java-related at first; your glossary
encompasses a lot of surrounding knowledge that's not really within the
realm of Java), and vetting it for current and accurate information in
the process.

It would also be great to do a Google of past newsgroup stuff and look
for the more insightful contributions in the past. I'm trying to figure
out how you'd put together a reasonably search criteria for candidate
insightful posts, out of the hundreds of thousands of articles in these
groups' history.

First, though, I have to figure out why it seems to be unavailable right
now. It worked when I tried it last week.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Gary Labowitz]

Then I volunteer as the champion. I've put a lot of effort into that
site as well and I'd like to see it live.

Okay, I'll go on record as participating in this task. I also have
contributed to the Wiki and would like to see it continue to serve. As I am
partially retired at this point (although I'm teaching 4 sessions next
semester!) I have some time to spend on researching and rewriting entries.
Let me know directly when you get started and need any help.

 

[Roedy Green]

Roedy, I know we've asked you this in the past and I've forgotten your
answer, but may we copy content from your glossary to JINX?

Yes I gave Jon permission to do that long ago. Further I mentioned it
again a few posts back. I may have asked him to put in links back to
my original so that if I change it people can see my up to date
version.

The other relevant thing is the entire website goes into the public
domain on the event of my death. One of the reasons I am keen on
people using the replicator is that there be lots of mirror copies to
take over.

 

[Roedy Green]

Then I volunteer as the champion. I've put a lot of effort into that
site as well and I'd like to see it live.

Good on you. I have not seen Jon around and was puzzled by your
comments about him going over to the dark side. Perhaps you will have
to start from scratch. Then you will be in the same boat as me, a
single person trying to put something together without enough time and
energy to do it, and lots of armchair critics telling you that you
missed a spot.

You will discover how quickly people develop a sense of entitlement to
your efforts.

Even researching broken links is a full time job.

I'd advise starting with the essays where you most disagree with me.
That will give you some emotional energy to push through. It will
also give you some emotional armour to say "**** 'em" when people
accuse you of all manner of wickedness for setting out on this
venture. No good deed goes unpunished.