seek advice for Ajax menu html script and include

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Alex Fillmore, May 13, 2009.

  1. We want to design a web site with simple Ajax drop down menu. Is there
    simple script sample I can use as template?
    We wish to have one single html menu file for all the other pages to use as
    menu. Is server side Include the only method? How can we find out our host
    machine can handle this server side Include? Thank you.
    Alex Fillmore, May 13, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    <> writing in
    news:fkDOl.16171$:

    > We want to design a web site with simple Ajax drop down menu. Is there
    > simple script sample I can use as template?
    > We wish to have one single html menu file for all the other pages to
    > use as menu. Is server side Include the only method? How can we find
    > out our host machine can handle this server side Include? Thank you.
    >
    >


    You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on the
    availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to be
    accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not have
    javascript. A server side include is what you are looking for, depending
    on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).

    Also, be careful of drop down menus. These can be a real accessibility
    nightmare. See other discussions in this group,
    comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or
    comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets. The recent discussions in
    all these groups that are worth looking into.


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 13, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "Adrienne Boswell" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9C0A700597535arbpenyahoocom@207.115.17.102...
    >
    > You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on the
    > availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to be
    > accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not have
    > javascript. A server side include is what you are looking for, depending
    > on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).
    >
    > Also, be careful of drop down menus. These can be a real accessibility
    > nightmare. See other discussions in this group,
    > comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or
    > comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets. The recent discussions in
    > all these groups that are worth looking into.
    >
    >
    > --
    > Adrienne Boswell at Home
    > Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    > http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    > Please respond to the group so others can share
    >


    Thank you Adrienne, thank you for your advice.
    Can you please tell me what is a simpliest horizonal menu bar, with drop
    down sub-menu, similar to Ajax type of menu script?
    I wish to write the entire menu bar in one html program (with all the
    necessary scripts) and then, picked up by each web pages (such as using
    server side include).
    The web site host is Plesk 8.3. I can log into my web site control panel.
    How can I find out what language my host provides?
    Alex Fillmore, May 15, 2009
    #3
  4. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    <> writing in
    news:wm2Pl.30049$:

    > "Adrienne Boswell" <> wrote in message
    > news:Xns9C0A700597535arbpenyahoocom@207.115.17.102...
    >>
    >> You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on
    >> the availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to
    >> be accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not
    >> have javascript. A server side include is what you are looking for,
    >> depending on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).
    >>
    >> Also, be careful of drop down menus. These can be a real
    >> accessibility nightmare. See other discussions in this group,
    >> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or
    >> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets. The recent discussions
    >> in all these groups that are worth looking into.
    >>
    >>
    >> --
    >> Adrienne Boswell at Home
    >> Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    >> http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    >> Please respond to the group so others can share
    >>

    >
    > Thank you Adrienne, thank you for your advice.
    > Can you please tell me what is a simpliest horizonal menu bar, with
    > drop down sub-menu, similar to Ajax type of menu script?
    > I wish to write the entire menu bar in one html program (with all the
    > necessary scripts) and then, picked up by each web pages (such as
    > using server side include).
    > The web site host is Plesk 8.3. I can log into my web site control
    > panel. How can I find out what language my host provides?
    >
    >


    If you have Plesk, you probably have PHP and you might have ASP classic,
    or ASP.net.

    You will want some sort of include, eg:

    <div id="nav">
    <?php include "nav_inc.php";?>
    </div>

    or you could do something like:

    <?php include "linkrel_inc.php"; ?>
    </head>
    <body>
    <?php include "header_inc.php"; ?>
    <div id="content">
    </div>
    <?php include "footer_inc.php"; ?>

    where linkrel_inc.php contains the doc type, title element, meta
    elements, stylesheet link, favicon link, etc.

    where header_inc.php contains something like:
    <div id="header">
    Bla
    </div>
    <div id="nav">
    <?php include "nav_inc.php"; ?>
    </div>

    and footer_inc.php contains something like:

    <div id="footer">
    Copyright info, etc.
    </div>
    <?php //close any db connections ?>
    </body>
    </html>


    As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
    pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 15, 2009
    #4
  5. Alex Fillmore

    David Mark Guest

    On May 15, 10:52 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    > <> writing innews:wm2Pl.30049$:
    >
    >
    >
    > > "Adrienne Boswell" <> wrote in message
    > >news:Xns9C0A700597535arbpenyahoocom@207.115.17.102...

    >
    > >> You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on
    > >> the availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to
    > >> be accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not
    > >> have javascript.  A server side include is what you are looking for,
    > >> depending on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).

    >
    > >> Also, be careful of drop down menus.  These can be a real
    > >> accessibility nightmare.  See other discussions in this group,
    > >> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.htmlor
    > >> comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets.  The recent discussions
    > >> in all these groups that are worth looking into.

    >
    > >> --
    > >> Adrienne Boswell at Home
    > >> Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    > >>http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    > >> Please respond to the group so others can share

    >
    > > Thank you Adrienne, thank you for your advice.
    > > Can you please tell me what is a simpliest horizonal menu bar, with
    > > drop down sub-menu, similar to Ajax type of menu script?
    > > I wish to write the entire menu bar in one html program (with all the
    > > necessary scripts) and then, picked up by each web pages (such as
    > > using server side include).
    > > The web site host is Plesk 8.3. I can log into my web site control
    > > panel. How can I find out what language my host provides?

    >
    > If you have Plesk, you probably have PHP and you might have ASP classic,
    > or ASP.net.  
    >
    > You will want some sort of include, eg:
    >
    > <div id="nav">
    > <?php include "nav_inc.php";?>
    > </div>
    >
    > or you could do something like:
    >
    > <?php include "linkrel_inc.php"; ?>
    > </head>
    > <body>
    > <?php include "header_inc.php"; ?>
    > <div id="content">
    > </div>
    > <?php include "footer_inc.php"; ?>
    >
    > where linkrel_inc.php contains the doc type, title element, meta
    > elements, stylesheet link, favicon link, etc.
    >
    > where header_inc.php contains something like:
    > <div id="header">
    > Bla
    > </div>
    > <div id="nav">
    > <?php include "nav_inc.php"; ?>
    > </div>
    >
    > and footer_inc.php contains something like:
    >
    > <div id="footer">
    > Copyright info, etc.
    > </div>
    > <?php //close any db connections ?>
    > </body>
    > </html>
    >
    > As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
    > pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.  
    >


    Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
    users. Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
    backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)
    David Mark, May 15, 2009
    #5
  6. "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
    >users. Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
    >backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)


    David, I do not understand what you mean? Is there better choice and simply
    than horizontal CCS menu, by mouse click, without keyboard stroke?
    Alex Fillmore, May 15, 2009
    #6
  7. David Mark wrote:
    > On May 15, 10:52 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:


    >> As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
    >> pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.
    >>

    >
    > Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
    > users.


    How so? If they are constructed from a list UL or even some generic
    containers with text-only will be a list of separate links. It won't
    "weld" all the links together...

    > Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
    > backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)


    No, actually desktop UI designers used it before the web... I does
    conserve visual real estate but it can have usability issues.

    --
    Take care,

    Jonathan
    -------------------
    LITTLE WORKS STUDIO
    http://www.LittleWorksStudio.com
    Jonathan N. Little, May 15, 2009
    #7
  8. Alex Fillmore

    David Mark Guest

    On May 15, 6:24 pm, "Jonathan N. Little" <>
    wrote:
    > David Mark wrote:
    > > On May 15, 10:52 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > >> As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
    > >> pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.  

    >
    > > Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
    > > users.  

    >
    > How so? If they are constructed from a list UL or even some generic
    > containers with text-only will be a list of separate links. It won't
    > "weld" all the links together...


    You misunderstand me. Try using a CSS menu without a mouse.

    >
    > > Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation.  What a
    > > backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.)  :)

    >
    > No, actually desktop UI designers used it before the web... I does
    > conserve visual real estate but it can have usability issues.


    Bad desktop UI's (e.g. VB applications) did all sorts of things in the
    bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

    1. Where you are
    2. Where you've been
    3. Where you can go from here

    CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    operating systems.
    David Mark, May 15, 2009
    #8
  9. "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

    1. Where you are
    2. Where you've been
    3. Where you can go from here

    CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    operating systems.


    David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    Any example we can take a look? Thank you.
    Alex Fillmore, May 19, 2009
    #9
  10. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:

    > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
    > bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:
    >
    > 1. Where you are
    > 2. Where you've been
    > 3. Where you can go from here
    >
    > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.
    >
    > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    > operating systems.
    >
    >
    > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.
    >
    >


    CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.
    1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
    2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the visited
    link
    3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    provided by the author.

    I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation. I
    always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to both
    the main navigation and the sitemap. If it is warranted, I also include
    a search facility.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 19, 2009
    #10
  11. Alex Fillmore

    David Mark Guest

    On May 19, 11:51 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    > <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    > @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:
    >
    > > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    > > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    >
    > @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
    >
    >
    >
    > > bad old days.  Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

    >
    > > 1. Where you are
    > > 2. Where you've been
    > > 3. Where you can go from here

    >
    > > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    >
    > > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    > > operating systems.

    >
    > > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    > > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.

    >
    > CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  


    Are you talking to me?

    > 1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
    > 2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the visited
    > link
    > 3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    > provided by the author.


    And this has what to do with CSS menus? You know, the ones that
    obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of the
    tree, etc.

    >
    > I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation.  I
    > always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to both
    > the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also include
    > a search facility.


    Site maps are usually worthless and hopefully you aren't stomping on
    the 404 status codes for missing pages. Searching has nothing to do
    with what we are talking about.

    So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
    contents with twitchy CSS menus.
    David Mark, May 25, 2009
    #11
  12. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    <> writing in news:1dadc250-632d-4728-b144-
    :

    > On May 19, 11:51 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    >> <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    >> @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:
    >>
    >> > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    >> > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    >>
    >> @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > bad old days.  Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

    >>
    >> > 1. Where you are
    >> > 2. Where you've been
    >> > 3. Where you can go from here

    >>
    >> > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    >>
    >> > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    >> > operating systems.

    >>
    >> > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    >> > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.

    >>
    >> CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  

    >
    > Are you talking to me?


    According to the message, yes. Older messages in this thread aren't
    available on my news server.

    >
    >> 1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
    >> 2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the

    visited
    >> link
    >> 3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    >> provided by the author.

    >
    > And this has what to do with CSS menus? You know, the ones that
    > obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of the
    > tree, etc.


    A menu is a menu is a menu. HTML provides the content, CSS provides the
    style. I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
    information, like the old Hier menus.

    I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however. When
    navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up into
    two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that particular
    section.
    >
    >>
    >> I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation.

    >  I
    >> always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to

    both
    >> the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also

    includ
    > e
    >> a search facility.

    >
    > Site maps are usually worthless


    I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless. I have found them very
    useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
    navigation.

    > and hopefully you aren't stomping on
    > the 404 status codes for missing pages.


    No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a link
    to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the page that
    produced the 404.

    > Searching has nothing to do
    > with what we are talking about.


    I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for the
    user.

    >
    > So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
    > contents with twitchy CSS menus.


    I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
    javascript.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 26, 2009
    #12
  13. Alex Fillmore

    David Mark Guest

    On May 26, 10:43 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    > <> writing in news:1dadc250-632d-4728-b144-
    > :
    >
    >
    >
    > > On May 19, 11:51 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    > >> <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    > >> @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:

    >
    > >> > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    > >> > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    >
    > >> @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

    >
    > >> > bad old days.  Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

    >
    > >> > 1. Where you are
    > >> > 2. Where you've been
    > >> > 3. Where you can go from here

    >
    > >> > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    >
    > >> > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
    > >> > operating systems.

    >
    > >> > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    > >> > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.

    >
    > >> CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  

    >
    > > Are you talking to me?

    >
    > According to the message, yes.  Older messages in this thread aren't
    > available on my news server.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >> 1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
    > >> 2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the

    > visited
    > >> link
    > >> 3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    > >> provided by the author.

    >
    > > And this has what to do with CSS menus?  You know, the ones that
    > > obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of the
    > > tree, etc.

    >
    > A menu is a menu is a menu.  HTML provides the content, CSS provides the
    > style.  I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
    > information, like the old Hier menus.  
    >
    > I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however.  When
    > navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up into
    > two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that particular
    > section.
    >
    >
    >
    > >> I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation.

    > >  I
    > >> always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to

    > both
    > >> the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also

    > includ
    > > e
    > >> a search facility.

    >
    > > Site maps are usually worthless

    >
    > I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless.  I have found them very
    > useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
    > navigation.
    >
    > > and hopefully you aren't stomping on
    > > the 404 status codes for missing pages.

    >
    > No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a link
    > to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the page that
    > produced the 404.
    >
    > > Searching has nothing to do
    > > with what we are talking about.

    >
    > I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for the
    > user.
    >
    >
    >
    > > So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
    > > contents with twitchy CSS menus.

    >
    > I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
    > javascript.
    >


    CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
    it. Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
    for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
    David Mark, May 26, 2009
    #13
  14. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    <> writing in
    news::

    > On May 26, 10:43 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    >> <> writing in news:1dadc250-632d-4728-b144-
    >> :
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > On May 19, 11:51 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    >> >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    >> >> <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    >> >> @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:

    >>
    >> >> > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    >> >> > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    >>
    >> >> @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

    >>
    >> >> > bad old days.  Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a
    >> >> > glanc

    > e:
    >>
    >> >> > 1. Where you are
    >> >> > 2. Where you've been
    >> >> > 3. Where you can go from here

    >>
    >> >> > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    >>
    >> >> > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most
    >> >> > desktop operating systems.

    >>
    >> >> > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    >> >> > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.

    >>
    >> >> CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  

    >>
    >> > Are you talking to me?

    >>
    >> According to the message, yes.  Older messages in this thread aren't
    >> available on my news server.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >> 1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current
    >> >> link 2. Where you have been - this is has always been available,
    >> >> the

    >> visited
    >> >> link
    >> >> 3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    >> >> provided by the author.

    >>
    >> > And this has what to do with CSS menus?  You know, the ones that
    >> > obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of
    >> > the tree, etc.

    >>
    >> A menu is a menu is a menu.  HTML provides the content, CSS provides
    >> th

    > e
    >> style.  I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
    >> information, like the old Hier menus.  
    >>
    >> I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however.  When
    >> navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up
    >> into two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that
    >> particular section.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >> I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main
    >> >> navigation.
    >> >  I
    >> >> always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link
    >> >> to

    >> both
    >> >> the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also

    >> includ
    >> > e
    >> >> a search facility.

    >>
    >> > Site maps are usually worthless

    >>
    >> I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless.  I have found them very
    >> useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
    >> navigation.
    >>
    >> > and hopefully you aren't stomping on
    >> > the 404 status codes for missing pages.

    >>
    >> No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a
    >> link to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the
    >> page that produced the 404.
    >>
    >> > Searching has nothing to do
    >> > with what we are talking about.

    >>
    >> I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for
    >> the user.
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> > So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
    >> > contents with twitchy CSS menus.

    >>
    >> I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
    >> javascript.
    >>

    >
    > CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
    > it. Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
    > for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
    >


    Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
    "twitchy".

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 26, 2009
    #14
  15. > Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    > coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
    > "twitchy".
    >
    > --
    > Adrienne Boswell at Home
    > Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    > http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    > Please respond to the group so others can share


    Dear Andrienne, thank you. That is the kind of simple menu we are looking
    for.
    Can you make this menu going horizontal instead of vertical?
    Can you make the submenu drop drop when mouse over?
    I assume I can use the source in your example, correct?
    Thank you so much.
    Alex Fillmore, May 26, 2009
    #15
  16. "Alex Fillmore" <> wrote in message
    news:IlYSl.23192$...
    >> Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    >> coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
    >> "twitchy".
    >>
    >> --
    >> Adrienne Boswell at Home
    >> Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    >> http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    >> Please respond to the group so others can share

    >

    Dear Andrienne, in your source, can you please add more comments. Thank
    you.
    Alex Fillmore, May 26, 2009
    #16
  17. Alex Fillmore

    David Mark Guest

    On May 26, 3:52 pm, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    > <> writing innews::
    >
    >
    >
    > > On May 26, 10:43 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    > >> <> writing in news:1dadc250-632d-4728-b144-
    > >> :

    >
    > >> > On May 19, 11:51 am, Adrienne Boswell <> wrote:
    > >> >> Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    > >> >> <> writing in news:qLpQl.15904$jZ1.6020
    > >> >> @flpi144.ffdc.sbc.com:

    >
    > >> >> > "David Mark" <> wrote in message
    > >> >> > news:fb500507-d117-4f39-ba97-32e9d52217b9

    >
    > >> >> @x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...

    >
    > >> >> > bad old days.  Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a
    > >> >> > glanc

    > > e:

    >
    > >> >> > 1. Where you are
    > >> >> > 2. Where you've been
    > >> >> > 3. Where you can go from here

    >
    > >> >> > CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

    >
    > >> >> > Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most
    > >> >> > desktop operating systems.

    >
    > >> >> > David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
    > >> >> > Any example we can take a look? Thank you.

    >
    > >> >> CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  

    >
    > >> > Are you talking to me?

    >
    > >> According to the message, yes.  Older messages in this thread aren't
    > >> available on my news server.

    >
    > >> >> 1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current
    > >> >> link 2. Where you have been - this is has always been available,
    > >> >> the
    > >> visited
    > >> >> link
    > >> >> 3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
    > >> >> provided by the author.

    >
    > >> > And this has what to do with CSS menus?  You know, the ones that
    > >> > obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of
    > >> > the tree, etc.

    >
    > >> A menu is a menu is a menu.  HTML provides the content, CSS provides
    > >> th

    > > e
    > >> style.  I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
    > >> information, like the old Hier menus.  

    >
    > >> I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however.  When
    > >> navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up
    > >> into two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that
    > >> particular section.

    >
    > >> >> I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main
    > >> >> navigation.
    > >> >  I
    > >> >> always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link
    > >> >> to
    > >> both
    > >> >> the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also
    > >> includ
    > >> > e
    > >> >> a search facility.

    >
    > >> > Site maps are usually worthless

    >
    > >> I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless.  I have found them very
    > >> useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
    > >> navigation.

    >
    > >> > and hopefully you aren't stomping on
    > >> > the 404 status codes for missing pages.

    >
    > >> No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a
    > >> link to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the
    > >> page that produced the 404.

    >
    > >> > Searching has nothing to do
    > >> > with what we are talking about.

    >
    > >> I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for
    > >> the user.

    >
    > >> > So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
    > >> > contents with twitchy CSS menus.

    >
    > >> I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
    > >> javascript.

    >
    > > CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
    > > it.  Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
    > > for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.

    >
    > Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    > coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html].  Now tell me how that is
    > "twitchy".


    That has no drop-downs (or fly-outs or whatever.) Are you suggesting
    that styling a list makes a point about menus? Looks more like a tree
    to me, which is what I suggested all along. :)

    >
    > --
    > Adrienne Boswell at Home
    > Arbpen Web Site Design Serviceshttp://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    > Please respond to the group so others can share


    Odd that site has no search, site index or custom 404 page (and your
    "menus" are styled as trees.) Did you farm it out?

    Other than that, it's basically a piece of junk. I'm sorry, but you
    are full of yourself. Can you put that in your quotes from Usenet?
    Be fair.
    David Mark, May 26, 2009
    #17
  18. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
    <> writing in news:e5842dc6-d33d-4875-a381-
    :

    >> > CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do

    about
    >> > it. ÿNot so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad

    ide
    > a
    >> > for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.

    >>
    >> Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    >> coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. ÿNow tell me how that is
    >> "twitchy".

    >
    > That has no drop-downs (or fly-outs or whatever.) Are you suggesting
    > that styling a list makes a point about menus? Looks more like a tree
    > to me, which is what I suggested all along. :)


    IMHO, menus really should not have fly-outs and/or whatever. Maybe I
    might not be "with it" or "kewl", but what the heck.

    >
    >>
    >> --
    >> Adrienne Boswell at Home
    >> Arbpen Web Site Design Serviceshttp://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    >> Please respond to the group so others can share

    >
    > Odd that site has no search, site index or custom 404 page (and your
    > "menus" are styled as trees.) Did you farm it out?


    I've been thinking about updating it, but I never seem to get to it. The
    menu is a nested list markup, and no, I did not farm it out.

    >
    > Other than that, it's basically a piece of junk.


    Thank you for your opinion, it's just information.

    > I'm sorry, but you
    > are full of yourself.


    Actually, right now, I'm full of coffee cake and coffee. Funny, I don't
    remember this thread as being a discussion about me.

    > Can you put that in your quotes from Usenet?
    > Be fair.
    >


    I would be more than happy to accomodate you, if you were giving me
    constructive criticism, but you just seem to be merely attacking me.

    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 26, 2009
    #18
  19. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    <> writing in
    news:IlYSl.23192$:

    >> Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    >> coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
    >> "twitchy".
    >>
    >> --
    >> Adrienne Boswell at Home
    >> Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    >> http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    >> Please respond to the group so others can share

    >
    > Dear Andrienne, thank you. That is the kind of simple menu we are
    > looking for.
    > Can you make this menu going horizontal instead of vertical?


    There are plenty of examples of horizontal CSS menus. Just Google for
    them.

    > Can you make the submenu drop drop when mouse over?


    I think this is what David Mark may be been on about when he was talking
    about CSS menus being "twitchy".

    Be careful of drop downs on mouse over.
    1. Unless there is some sort of cue that there is more content, the user
    may never hover over to get to submenus.
    2. Drop downs can be a PITA for selecting, even with a pointing device,
    especially when they are more than two levels deep. Invariably, I am
    trying to get to a third level link, only to have the pointer in the
    wrong place, and the whole damn thing disappears.

    > I assume I can use the source in your example, correct?
    > Thank you so much.
    >
    >
    >


    Be my guest.


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 26, 2009
    #19
  20. Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
    <> writing in news:TpYSl.23193$as4.3804
    @nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:

    > "Alex Fillmore" <> wrote in message
    > news:IlYSl.23192$...
    >>> Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
    >>> coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
    >>> "twitchy".
    >>>

    >>

    > Dear Andrienne, in your source, can you please add more comments.

    Thank
    > you.
    >


    The source is very easy to follow. You might do better looking at the
    page/source using Firefox and the Firebug extension.


    --
    Adrienne Boswell at Home
    Arbpen Web Site Design Services
    http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
    Please respond to the group so others can share
    Adrienne Boswell, May 26, 2009
    #20
    1. Advertising

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