seek advice for Ajax menu html script and include

A

Alex Fillmore

We want to design a web site with simple Ajax drop down menu. Is there
simple script sample I can use as template?
We wish to have one single html menu file for all the other pages to use as
menu. Is server side Include the only method? How can we find out our host
machine can handle this server side Include? Thank you.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

We want to design a web site with simple Ajax drop down menu. Is there
simple script sample I can use as template?
We wish to have one single html menu file for all the other pages to
use as menu. Is server side Include the only method? How can we find
out our host machine can handle this server side Include? Thank you.
Click to expand...

You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on the
availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to be
accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not have
javascript. A server side include is what you are looking for, depending
on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).

Also, be careful of drop down menus. These can be a real accessibility
nightmare. See other discussions in this group,
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets. The recent discussions in
all these groups that are worth looking into.
 
A

Alex Fillmore

Adrienne Boswell said:
You do not want to use Ajax in this instance because Ajax depends on the
availability of javascript on the client's machine. Menus need to be
accessible to everyone, including robots and spiders who do not have
javascript. A server side include is what you are looking for, depending
on what language your host provides (PHP, ASP, etc).

Also, be careful of drop down menus. These can be a real accessibility
nightmare. See other discussions in this group,
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.html or
comp.infosystems.www.authoring.stylesheets. The recent discussions in
all these groups that are worth looking into.


--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Click to expand...

Thank you Adrienne, thank you for your advice.
Can you please tell me what is a simpliest horizonal menu bar, with drop
down sub-menu, similar to Ajax type of menu script?
I wish to write the entire menu bar in one html program (with all the
necessary scripts) and then, picked up by each web pages (such as using
server side include).
The web site host is Plesk 8.3. I can log into my web site control panel.
How can I find out what language my host provides?
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Thank you Adrienne, thank you for your advice.
Can you please tell me what is a simpliest horizonal menu bar, with
drop down sub-menu, similar to Ajax type of menu script?
I wish to write the entire menu bar in one html program (with all the
necessary scripts) and then, picked up by each web pages (such as
using server side include).
The web site host is Plesk 8.3. I can log into my web site control
panel. How can I find out what language my host provides?
Click to expand...

If you have Plesk, you probably have PHP and you might have ASP classic,
or ASP.net.

You will want some sort of include, eg:

<div id="nav">
<?php include "nav_inc.php";?>
</div>

or you could do something like:

<?php include "linkrel_inc.php"; ?>
</head>
<body>
<?php include "header_inc.php"; ?>
<div id="content">
</div>
<?php include "footer_inc.php"; ?>

where linkrel_inc.php contains the doc type, title element, meta
elements, stylesheet link, favicon link, etc.

where header_inc.php contains something like:
<div id="header">
Bla
</div>
<div id="nav">
<?php include "nav_inc.php"; ?>
</div>

and footer_inc.php contains something like:

<div id="footer">
Copyright info, etc.
</div>
<?php //close any db connections ?>
</body>
</html>


As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.
 
D

David Mark

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed "Alex Fillmore"
<[email protected]> writing in




If you have Plesk, you probably have PHP and you might have ASP classic,
or ASP.net.  

You will want some sort of include, eg:

<div id="nav">
<?php include "nav_inc.php";?>
</div>

or you could do something like:

<?php include "linkrel_inc.php"; ?>
</head>
<body>
<?php include "header_inc.php"; ?>
<div id="content">
</div>
<?php include "footer_inc.php"; ?>

where linkrel_inc.php contains the doc type, title element, meta
elements, stylesheet link, favicon link, etc.

where header_inc.php contains something like:
<div id="header">
Bla
</div>
<div id="nav">
<?php include "nav_inc.php"; ?>
</div>

and footer_inc.php contains something like:

<div id="footer">
Copyright info, etc.
</div>
<?php //close any db connections ?>
</body>
</html>

As far as menus, there are plenty of CSS based menus out there that are
pretty easy to maintain, and accessible.  
Click to expand...

Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
users. Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)
 
A

Alex Fillmore

David Mark said:
Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
users. Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)
Click to expand...

David, I do not understand what you mean? Is there better choice and simply
than horizontal CCS menu, by mouse click, without keyboard stroke?
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

David said:
Well, accessible in that they degrade to a single link for keyboard
users.
Click to expand...

How so? If they are constructed from a list UL or even some generic
containers with text-only will be a list of separate links. It won't
"weld" all the links together...
Best advice is to skip drop-down menus for navigation. What a
backwards idea that was (sure a Web developer thought of it.) :)
Click to expand...

No, actually desktop UI designers used it before the web... I does
conserve visual real estate but it can have usability issues.
 
D

David Mark

How so? If they are constructed from a list UL or even some generic
containers with text-only will be a list of separate links. It won't
"weld" all the links together...
Click to expand...

You misunderstand me. Try using a CSS menu without a mouse.
No, actually desktop UI designers used it before the web... I does
conserve visual real estate but it can have usability issues.
Click to expand...

Bad desktop UI's (e.g. VB applications) did all sorts of things in the
bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

1. Where you are
2. Where you've been
3. Where you can go from here

CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
operating systems.
 
A

Alex Fillmore

bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

1. Where you are
2. Where you've been
3. Where you can go from here

CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
operating systems.


David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
Any example we can take a look? Thank you.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

@x6g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
bad old days. Nevertheless, navigation *must* show you at a glance:

1. Where you are
2. Where you've been
3. Where you can go from here

CSS menus are (at best) 1 of 3 in that regard.

Navigation is best rendered as a tree, just as it is in most desktop
operating systems.


David, thank you. Can you recommend simple basic good menu?
Any example we can take a look? Thank you.
Click to expand...

CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.
1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the visited
link
3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
provided by the author.

I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation. I
always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to both
the main navigation and the sitemap. If it is warranted, I also include
a search facility.
 
D

David Mark

CSS has nothing to do with content, it is presentational only.  
Click to expand...

Are you talking to me?
1. Where you are - use a special class to distinguish a current link
2. Where you have been - this is has always been available, the visited
link
3. Where you can go from here - again, this depends on the content
provided by the author.
Click to expand...

And this has what to do with CSS menus? You know, the ones that
obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of the
tree, etc.
I often include a breadcrumb trail in addition to the main navigation.  I
always include a site map, and a custom 404 page that has a link to both
the main navigation and the sitemap.  If it is warranted, I also include
a search facility.
Click to expand...

Site maps are usually worthless and hopefully you aren't stomping on
the 404 status codes for missing pages. Searching has nothing to do
with what we are talking about.

So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
contents with twitchy CSS menus.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
Are you talking to me?
Click to expand...

According to the message, yes. Older messages in this thread aren't
available on my news server.
And this has what to do with CSS menus? You know, the ones that
obscure where you can go next, how you got there, the structure of the
tree, etc.
Click to expand...

A menu is a menu is a menu. HTML provides the content, CSS provides the
style. I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
information, like the old Hier menus.

I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however. When
navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up into
two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that particular
section.
includ

Site maps are usually worthless
Click to expand...

I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless. I have found them very
useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
navigation.
and hopefully you aren't stomping on
the 404 status codes for missing pages.
Click to expand...

No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a link
to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the page that
produced the 404.
Searching has nothing to do
with what we are talking about.
Click to expand...

I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for the
user.
So, I don't see how any of this justifies obscuring your table of
contents with twitchy CSS menus.
Click to expand...

I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
javascript.
 
D

David Mark

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
<[email protected]> writing in (e-mail address removed):





According to the message, yes.  Older messages in this thread aren't
available on my news server.







A menu is a menu is a menu.  HTML provides the content, CSS provides the
style.  I agree with you about authors who style menus that obscure
information, like the old Hier menus.  

I don't think that a menu is necessarily a tree, however.  When
navigation becomes that complicated, IMHO, it is best to break it up into
two menus, one main navigation, and a submenu for that particular
section.





I wouldn't say that sitemaps are worthless.  I have found them very
useful when I can't find what I am looking for in the provided
navigation.


No, I am still sending out a 404, just providing a custom 404 with a link
to the site map, and an email goes to the author listing the page that
produced the 404.


I suggested it as an additional means of providing information for the
user.




I never obsure contents with twitchy anything, whether it be CSS or
javascript.
Click to expand...

CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
it. Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
it. Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
Click to expand...

Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
"twitchy".
 
A

Alex Fillmore

Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
"twitchy".

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Click to expand...

Dear Andrienne, thank you. That is the kind of simple menu we are looking
for.
Can you make this menu going horizontal instead of vertical?
Can you make the submenu drop drop when mouse over?
I assume I can use the source in your example, correct?
Thank you so much.
 
D

David Mark

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
<[email protected]> writing in

CSS menus are inherently twitchy and there's nothing you can do about
it.  Not so with JS menus (good ones anyway), but those are a bad idea
for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
Click to expand...

Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html].  Now tell me how that is
"twitchy".
Click to expand...

That has no drop-downs (or fly-outs or whatever.) Are you suggesting
that styling a list makes a point about menus? Looks more like a tree
to me, which is what I suggested all along. :)

Odd that site has no search, site index or custom 404 page (and your
"menus" are styled as trees.) Did you farm it out?

Other than that, it's basically a piece of junk. I'm sorry, but you
are full of yourself. Can you put that in your quotes from Usenet?
Be fair.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Gazing into my crystal ball I observed David Mark
ide
a
for navigation as they hide the structure of the site.
Click to expand...

Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. ÿNow tell me how that is
"twitchy".
Click to expand...

That has no drop-downs (or fly-outs or whatever.) Are you suggesting
that styling a list makes a point about menus? Looks more like a tree
to me, which is what I suggested all along. :)
Click to expand...

IMHO, menus really should not have fly-outs and/or whatever. Maybe I
might not be "with it" or "kewl", but what the heck.
Odd that site has no search, site index or custom 404 page (and your
"menus" are styled as trees.) Did you farm it out?
Click to expand...

I've been thinking about updating it, but I never seem to get to it. The
menu is a nested list markup, and no, I did not farm it out.
Other than that, it's basically a piece of junk.
Click to expand...

Thank you for your opinion, it's just information.
I'm sorry, but you
are full of yourself.
Click to expand...

Actually, right now, I'm full of coffee cake and coffee. Funny, I don't
remember this thread as being a discussion about me.
Can you put that in your quotes from Usenet?
Be fair.
Click to expand...

I would be more than happy to accomodate you, if you were giving me
constructive criticism, but you just seem to be merely attacking me.
 
A

Adrienne Boswell

Have a look at [http://www.cavalcade-of-
coding.info/usenet/nottwitchycssmenu.html]. Now tell me how that is
"twitchy".

--
Adrienne Boswell at Home
Arbpen Web Site Design Services
http://www.cavalcade-of-coding.info
Please respond to the group so others can share
Click to expand...

Dear Andrienne, thank you. That is the kind of simple menu we are
looking for.
Can you make this menu going horizontal instead of vertical?
Click to expand...

There are plenty of examples of horizontal CSS menus. Just Google for
them.
Can you make the submenu drop drop when mouse over?
Click to expand...

I think this is what David Mark may be been on about when he was talking
about CSS menus being "twitchy".

Be careful of drop downs on mouse over.
1. Unless there is some sort of cue that there is more content, the user
may never hover over to get to submenus.
2. Drop downs can be a PITA for selecting, even with a pointing device,
especially when they are more than two levels deep. Invariably, I am
trying to get to a third level link, only to have the pointer in the
wrong place, and the whole damn thing disappears.
I assume I can use the source in your example, correct?
Thank you so much.
Click to expand...

Be my guest.
 

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