Sun vs. Microsoft JVMs

Discussion in 'Java' started by taylorius, Jul 29, 2004.

  1. taylorius

    taylorius Guest

    Hi,

    I have been looking for statistics on the penetration of Sun's JVM
    vs. Microsoft's (in the context of applet viewing in a web browser).
    To what extent is the Sun JVM taking over from Microsoft's? (and to
    what extent do people have no JVM)

    If anyone has any information, or pointers to any data, I would be
    most grateful.

    Regards


    Matt Taylor
     
    taylorius, Jul 29, 2004
    #1
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  2. taylorius

    Mickey Segal Guest

    "taylorius" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I have been looking for statistics on the penetration of Sun's JVM
    > vs. Microsoft's (in the context of applet viewing in a web browser).
    > To what extent is the Sun JVM taking over from Microsoft's? (and to
    > what extent do people have no JVM)


    I don't have any hard data, but what I have seen for many doctors in
    hospitals in several countries (for Windows users) is that about two thirds
    use the MS JVM, about one third use the Sun JVM, and I haven't seen the
    Netscape JVM or the absence of a JVM in years. This represents a big
    increase for the Sun JVM in the past year or two. If you are doing applets,
    want universal access and have no control over the user's environment you
    need to support Java 1.1 as well as the Sun JVM for the foreseeable future.
     
    Mickey Segal, Jul 29, 2004
    #2
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  3. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:35:15 -0400, "Mickey Segal"
    <> wrote or quoted :

    >I don't have any hard data, but what I have seen for many doctors in
    >hospitals in several countries (for Windows users) is that about two thirds
    >use the MS JVM, about one third use the Sun JVM, and I haven't seen the
    >Netscape JVM or the absence of a JVM in years. This represents a big
    >increase for the Sun JVM in the past year or two. If you are doing applets,
    >want universal access and have no control over the user's environment you
    >need to support Java 1.1 as well as the Sun JVM for the foreseeable future.


    one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
    Microsoft destroy Java.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 29, 2004
    #3
  4. Roedy Green wrote:
    > one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling,


    Thinking of investing in Google stocks, Roedy?
     
    Michael Borgwardt, Jul 29, 2004
    #4
  5. taylorius

    Mickey Segal Guest

    "Roedy Green" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
    > Microsoft destroy Java.


    One of the annoying parts about keeping code at Java 1.1 to support the MS
    JVM is that Sun has introduced changes to Java that make life difficult
    those using Java 1.1 code.

    One example is requiring use of Java 2 to turn on text antialiasing. Mike
    Smith came up with a nice workaround to this problem at:
    http://www.smithvalley.com/test/aademo.htm
     
    Mickey Segal, Jul 29, 2004
    #5
  6. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:49:19 +0200, Michael Borgwardt
    <> wrote or quoted :

    >> one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling,

    >
    >Thinking of investing in Google stocks, Roedy?


    I don't understand the connection.

    Google is plans to invest billions in schemes to tag photos with RDF
    meta-information, something Immuexa is working on. Google bought out
    Picassa, one of Immuexa's competitors. Immuexa is partly paying me in
    stock.

    See http://storymill.com

    I am always writing to Google with ideas to speed up or otherwise
    improve their service.

    A couple of days ago MS announced it was going to get into the
    business as well.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 29, 2004
    #6
  7. taylorius

    Grant Wagner Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:

    > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:35:15 -0400, "Mickey Segal"
    > <> wrote or quoted :
    >
    > >I don't have any hard data, but what I have seen for many doctors in
    > >hospitals in several countries (for Windows users) is that about two thirds
    > >use the MS JVM, about one third use the Sun JVM, and I haven't seen the
    > >Netscape JVM or the absence of a JVM in years. This represents a big
    > >increase for the Sun JVM in the past year or two. If you are doing applets,
    > >want universal access and have no control over the user's environment you
    > >need to support Java 1.1 as well as the Sun JVM for the foreseeable future.

    >
    > one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
    > Microsoft destroy Java.


    According to the Java advocates I've read:

    - Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
    - the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
    - 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
    - no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.

    Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.

    It's all so confusing.

    --
    Grant Wagner <>
     
    Grant Wagner, Jul 29, 2004
    #7
  8. Grant Wagner <> wrote:

    > According to the Java advocates I've read:
    >
    > - Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
    > - the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
    > - 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
    > - no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.
    >
    > Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.
    >
    > It's all so confusing.


    I don't think that making an applet 1.1-compatible necessarily equates to
    "helping Microsoft destroy Java." First, there is a huge base of installed
    browsers that only runs 1.1. Second, although I would love to be able to write
    Java2 applets and have them just work, the 1.4.2 JVM is a 15MB download if you
    just grab the JRE. This isn't an issue with Mozilla, Opera and other browsers
    that allow you to download the JRE as part of the browser package, but it is
    an issue with Internet Exploder, and IE still has lots and lots of market
    share.

    I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
    MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
    The people running MS have huge egos, and so do the people at Sun, and both
    camps are unwilling to work together. I know this is, in large part, due to
    prior Microsoft behavior, but the end result is that if you use IE or plain-
    vanilla Windows, it's extra work to get Java applets and applications to run.

    I am going to distribute some applications I'm working on using an installer
    that bundles the JVM. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for applets...

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
     
    Steven J Sobol, Jul 29, 2004
    #8
  9. taylorius

    P.Hill Guest

    Grant Wagner wrote:
    > According to the Java advocates I've read:
    >
    > - Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
    > - the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
    > - 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
    > - no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.
    >
    > Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.
    >
    > It's all so confusing.


    Think of that old MS VM as an old mine leftover from a previous battle.
    It might still cause trouble if treated in the wrong way.

    FWIW, "helping MS Destroy" does NOT suggest it IS destroying Java.
    Another interpretation of the same sentence is that they'd like to destroy
    it and are working on it, but not necessarily succeeding, so
    would welcome the help.

    Resist the urge to give them any help. There are serious problems for
    economic and technological development, and the operation of markets when one
    organization has a near monopoly of the market -- any market -- be it
    railroads, steel, banks, aluminum, media, airplane ticketing,
    desktop OSes etc. But I guess that is another newsgroup.

    -Paul
     
    P.Hill, Jul 29, 2004
    #9
  10. taylorius

    Jim Cochrane Guest

    In article <>, Steven J Sobol wrote:
    > Grant Wagner <> wrote:
    >
    >> According to the Java advocates I've read:
    >>
    >> - Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
    >> - the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
    >> - 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
    >> - no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.
    >>
    >> Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.
    >>
    >> It's all so confusing.

    >
    > I don't think that making an applet 1.1-compatible necessarily equates to
    > "helping Microsoft destroy Java." First, there is a huge base of installed
    > browsers that only runs 1.1. Second, although I would love to be able to write
    > Java2 applets and have them just work, the 1.4.2 JVM is a 15MB download if you
    > just grab the JRE. This isn't an issue with Mozilla, Opera and other browsers
    > that allow you to download the JRE as part of the browser package, but it is
    > an issue with Internet Exploder, and IE still has lots and lots of market
    > share.
    >
    > I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
    > MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
    > The people running MS have huge egos, and so do the people at Sun, and both
    > camps are unwilling to work together. I know this is, in large part, due to
    > prior Microsoft behavior, but the end result is that if you use IE or plain-
    > vanilla Windows, it's extra work to get Java applets and applications to run.


    The last I heard, Sun and MS had decided to cooperate, including wrt Java,
    more than in the past. However, I haven't dug into the details nor have
    I kept up on the latest news (although I believe the outcome implies,
    at least, that MS will be including a JVM [though not necessarily 1.4]
    in all current and future releases of its desktop OSs). Am I wrong or
    out of date?

    --
    Jim Cochrane;
    [When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
    get through my spam filter.]
     
    Jim Cochrane, Jul 29, 2004
    #10
  11. taylorius

    Mickey Segal Guest

    "Jim Cochrane" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The last I heard, Sun and MS had decided to cooperate, including wrt Java,
    > more than in the past. However, I haven't dug into the details nor have
    > I kept up on the latest news (although I believe the outcome implies,
    > at least, that MS will be including a JVM [though not necessarily 1.4]
    > in all current and future releases of its desktop OSs). Am I wrong or
    > out of date?


    All signals I've seen from Microsoft are that they will not produce a
    version of Java past Java 1.1. I don't know whether this stance is true or
    enduring.

    If Microsoft does not do an updated version of Java, it would be helpful if
    they would ship Sun's Java with all copies of Windows. Apple has such a
    policy of shipping Java support with all copies of OS X, though the reality
    is not so rosy because their implementation of Java 1.4 is so full of AWT
    bugs as to be of limited usefulness.
     
    Mickey Segal, Jul 29, 2004
    #11
  12. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:03:12 GMT, Grant Wagner
    <> wrote or quoted :

    >Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.
    >
    >It's all so confusing.


    MS have been successful in derailing Applets with their Trojan JVM
    installed in IE.

    They have given Applets an undeserved black eye.

    In other areas of Java, MS was unsuccessful, e.g. servers, handhelds,
    cell phones.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 29, 2004
    #12
  13. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:53:39 -0500, Steven J Sobol
    <> wrote or quoted :

    >
    >I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
    >MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
    >The people running MS have huge egos,


    It is not just egos. IBM behaved the same way when it was in a
    similar monopoly position. They too fought standardization. Java is
    a form of standardisation that makes it easy to switch OSes and
    hardware.

    A monopolist has to lock his customers in to proprietary systems. That
    way he cans still charge much more than a competitor without worrying
    about defection.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 29, 2004
    #13
  14. taylorius

    Jim Cochrane Guest

    In article <>, Roedy Green wrote:
    > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:53:39 -0500, Steven J Sobol
    ><> wrote or quoted :
    >
    >>
    >>I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
    >>MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
    >>The people running MS have huge egos,

    >
    > It is not just egos. IBM behaved the same way when it was in a
    > similar monopoly position. They too fought standardization. Java is
    > a form of standardisation that makes it easy to switch OSes and
    > hardware.
    >
    > A monopolist has to lock his customers in to proprietary systems. That
    > way he cans still charge much more than a competitor without worrying
    > about defection.


    There's always the supply and demand factor. If enough MS customers demand
    an up-to-date, reliable JVM, MS will likely not want to risk the resulting
    loss of profit if it does not respond to the demand. How likely is it that
    this demand will occur? I don't know - I'd guess between 25 and 60%.

    --
    Jim Cochrane;
    [When responding by email, include the term non-spam in the subject line to
    get through my spam filter.]
     
    Jim Cochrane, Jul 29, 2004
    #14
  15. Roedy Green <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:03:12 GMT, Grant Wagner
    > <> wrote or quoted :
    >
    >>Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.
    >>
    >>It's all so confusing.

    >
    > MS have been successful in derailing Applets with their Trojan JVM


    Elaborate, please?

    --
    JustThe.net Internet & New Media Services, http://JustThe.net/
    Steven J. Sobol, Geek In Charge / 888.480.4NET (4638) /
    PGP Key available from your friendly local key server (0xE3AE35ED)
    Apple Valley, California Nothing scares me anymore. I have three kids.
     
    Steven J Sobol, Jul 30, 2004
    #15
  16. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 18:12:35 -0500, Steven J Sobol
    <> wrote or quoted :

    >> MS have been successful in derailing Applets with their Trojan JVM

    >
    >Elaborate, please?


    The natural evolution would have been to use Applets for data entry,
    and send the digested information to a server. This would allow
    bounds checking, etc. etc so that you would find out about errors the
    keystroke you made them.

    This did not happen.

    We are putting up with THIN clients, browser-only, ones with zero
    intelligence that submit entire forms to the server to do the
    validations that would normally be done at the keystroke level,
    treating our users with contempt. We did better in the days of the
    keypunch. At least then you had numeric/alpha keystroke validation,
    and right justification.

    MS so buggered up Applets that very few serious programs work as
    Applets. Then to add insult to injury, when they dropped support for
    their non-standard JVM, they left the corpse in IE, to take precedence
    over a real JVM. It is a Trojan horse -- essentially a phony JVM.

    In emotional terms it was spite. In economic terms, it was abuse of
    monopoly power.



    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 30, 2004
    #16
  17. taylorius

    Sudsy Guest

    Roedy Green wrote:
    <snip>
    > The natural evolution would have been to use Applets for data entry,
    > and send the digested information to a server. This would allow
    > bounds checking, etc. etc so that you would find out about errors the
    > keystroke you made them.
    >
    > This did not happen.
    >
    > We are putting up with THIN clients, browser-only, ones with zero
    > intelligence that submit entire forms to the server to do the
    > validations that would normally be done at the keystroke level,
    > treating our users with contempt. <snip>


    To be fair, you can NEVER trust the client in a client-server
    architecture. Someone will always find a way to present invalid
    data to the server. You have to validate at both ends. Heck,
    with a protocol like HTTP you have no choice: the data can be
    generated by applications, not just users.
    So instead of lamenting what applets COULD have become, take
    advantage of the technologies available.
    You obviously don't like the thin-client model, but to me it
    represents the ultimate in accessibility and portability.
    Same glass, different perception...
     
    Sudsy, Jul 30, 2004
    #17
  18. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:06 -0400, Sudsy <>
    wrote or quoted :

    >To be fair, you can NEVER trust the client in a client-server
    >architecture. Someone will always find a way to present invalid
    >data to the server.


    You MUST validate in the workstation and revalidate in the server.
    That duplication is no excuse for failing to do keystroke validation.
    You do it to make life tolerable for your client.

    Think how many times you have given up in disgust trying to fill in
    some stupid form on the Internet. Think how many technopeasants they
    have discouraged. Thin clients are a tool for infuriating and scaring
    off customers.

    FORMS are so pathetically inept the way they do ZERO validation. Even
    a 3270 from the 1970s could do better than that. Even a KEYPUNCH could
    do better than that. Further they FORGET values when you retry.

    The way to do it properly is to use a thick client to do keystroke
    validation, field by field prompting, then send the data off in tidy
    form to the server.

    The validation does NOT have to be repeated in full. For example a
    number sent in binary need only be validated on bounds. There is no
    need to recheck for alpha, number of decimal places, total fill etc.

    The solution will be a tool that generates consistent code both for
    the server and for client from the same set of validation specs.

    The other half of the tool will be like a vCard that fills in forms
    with the standard bubblegum, with your approval. Think how many
    thousand times you have entered your name, address, email address,
    snail address into some form, field by field or even keystroke by
    keystroke if you don't use Opera.

    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 30, 2004
    #18
  19. taylorius

    Roedy Green Guest

    On Thu, 29 Jul 2004 21:12:06 -0400, Sudsy <>
    wrote or quoted :

    >You obviously don't like the thin-client model, but to me it
    >represents the ultimate in accessibility and portability.
    >Same glass, different perception...


    You are kidding aren't you?
    --
    Canadian Mind Products, Roedy Green.
    Coaching, problem solving, economical contract programming.
    See http://mindprod.com/jgloss/jgloss.html for The Java Glossary.
     
    Roedy Green, Jul 30, 2004
    #19
  20. Roedy Green <> writes:

    > They have given Applets an undeserved black eye.


    I'd rather blame the INCREDIBLY buggy and far more incomplete
    implementations (lack of 1.1 event model - later added, their own
    security system instead of using java.security) that Netscape shipped.
     
    Tor Iver Wilhelmsen, Jul 30, 2004
    #20
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