Sun vs. Microsoft JVMs

T

taylorius

Hi,

I have been looking for statistics on the penetration of Sun's JVM
vs. Microsoft's (in the context of applet viewing in a web browser).
To what extent is the Sun JVM taking over from Microsoft's? (and to
what extent do people have no JVM)

If anyone has any information, or pointers to any data, I would be
most grateful.

Regards


Matt Taylor
 
M

Mickey Segal

taylorius said:
I have been looking for statistics on the penetration of Sun's JVM
vs. Microsoft's (in the context of applet viewing in a web browser).
To what extent is the Sun JVM taking over from Microsoft's? (and to
what extent do people have no JVM)

I don't have any hard data, but what I have seen for many doctors in
hospitals in several countries (for Windows users) is that about two thirds
use the MS JVM, about one third use the Sun JVM, and I haven't seen the
Netscape JVM or the absence of a JVM in years. This represents a big
increase for the Sun JVM in the past year or two. If you are doing applets,
want universal access and have no control over the user's environment you
need to support Java 1.1 as well as the Sun JVM for the foreseeable future.
 
R

Roedy Green

I don't have any hard data, but what I have seen for many doctors in
hospitals in several countries (for Windows users) is that about two thirds
use the MS JVM, about one third use the Sun JVM, and I haven't seen the
Netscape JVM or the absence of a JVM in years. This represents a big
increase for the Sun JVM in the past year or two. If you are doing applets,
want universal access and have no control over the user's environment you
need to support Java 1.1 as well as the Sun JVM for the foreseeable future.

one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
Microsoft destroy Java.
 
M

Mickey Segal

Roedy Green said:
one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
Microsoft destroy Java.

One of the annoying parts about keeping code at Java 1.1 to support the MS
JVM is that Sun has introduced changes to Java that make life difficult
those using Java 1.1 code.

One example is requiring use of Java 2 to turn on text antialiasing. Mike
Smith came up with a nice workaround to this problem at:
http://www.smithvalley.com/test/aademo.htm
 
R

Roedy Green

Thinking of investing in Google stocks, Roedy?

I don't understand the connection.

Google is plans to invest billions in schemes to tag photos with RDF
meta-information, something Immuexa is working on. Google bought out
Picassa, one of Immuexa's competitors. Immuexa is partly paying me in
stock.

See http://storymill.com

I am always writing to Google with ideas to speed up or otherwise
improve their service.

A couple of days ago MS announced it was going to get into the
business as well.
 
G

Grant Wagner

Roedy said:
one the other paw, continuing to do this is being a Quisling, helping
Microsoft destroy Java.

According to the Java advocates I've read:

- Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
- the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
- 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
- no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.

Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.

It's all so confusing.
 
S

Steven J Sobol

Grant Wagner said:
According to the Java advocates I've read:

- Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
- the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
- 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
- no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.

Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.

It's all so confusing.

I don't think that making an applet 1.1-compatible necessarily equates to
"helping Microsoft destroy Java." First, there is a huge base of installed
browsers that only runs 1.1. Second, although I would love to be able to write
Java2 applets and have them just work, the 1.4.2 JVM is a 15MB download if you
just grab the JRE. This isn't an issue with Mozilla, Opera and other browsers
that allow you to download the JRE as part of the browser package, but it is
an issue with Internet Exploder, and IE still has lots and lots of market
share.

I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
The people running MS have huge egos, and so do the people at Sun, and both
camps are unwilling to work together. I know this is, in large part, due to
prior Microsoft behavior, but the end result is that if you use IE or plain-
vanilla Windows, it's extra work to get Java applets and applications to run.

I am going to distribute some applications I'm working on using an installer
that bundles the JVM. Unfortunately, that doesn't work for applets...
 
P

P.Hill

Grant said:
According to the Java advocates I've read:

- Microsoft tried to destroy Java and failed,
- the use of Java is more widespread then ever,
- 99.999% of jobs on somejobwebsiteorother.com are Java related, and
- no one anywhere, ever, has used .NET.

Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.

It's all so confusing.

Think of that old MS VM as an old mine leftover from a previous battle.
It might still cause trouble if treated in the wrong way.

FWIW, "helping MS Destroy" does NOT suggest it IS destroying Java.
Another interpretation of the same sentence is that they'd like to destroy
it and are working on it, but not necessarily succeeding, so
would welcome the help.

Resist the urge to give them any help. There are serious problems for
economic and technological development, and the operation of markets when one
organization has a near monopoly of the market -- any market -- be it
railroads, steel, banks, aluminum, media, airplane ticketing,
desktop OSes etc. But I guess that is another newsgroup.

-Paul
 
J

Jim Cochrane

I don't think that making an applet 1.1-compatible necessarily equates to
"helping Microsoft destroy Java." First, there is a huge base of installed
browsers that only runs 1.1. Second, although I would love to be able to write
Java2 applets and have them just work, the 1.4.2 JVM is a 15MB download if you
just grab the JRE. This isn't an issue with Mozilla, Opera and other browsers
that allow you to download the JRE as part of the browser package, but it is
an issue with Internet Exploder, and IE still has lots and lots of market
share.

I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
The people running MS have huge egos, and so do the people at Sun, and both
camps are unwilling to work together. I know this is, in large part, due to
prior Microsoft behavior, but the end result is that if you use IE or plain-
vanilla Windows, it's extra work to get Java applets and applications to run.

The last I heard, Sun and MS had decided to cooperate, including wrt Java,
more than in the past. However, I haven't dug into the details nor have
I kept up on the latest news (although I believe the outcome implies,
at least, that MS will be including a JVM [though not necessarily 1.4]
in all current and future releases of its desktop OSs). Am I wrong or
out of date?
 
M

Mickey Segal

Jim Cochrane said:
The last I heard, Sun and MS had decided to cooperate, including wrt Java,
more than in the past. However, I haven't dug into the details nor have
I kept up on the latest news (although I believe the outcome implies,
at least, that MS will be including a JVM [though not necessarily 1.4]
in all current and future releases of its desktop OSs). Am I wrong or
out of date?

All signals I've seen from Microsoft are that they will not produce a
version of Java past Java 1.1. I don't know whether this stance is true or
enduring.

If Microsoft does not do an updated version of Java, it would be helpful if
they would ship Sun's Java with all copies of Windows. Apple has such a
policy of shipping Java support with all copies of OS X, though the reality
is not so rosy because their implementation of Java 1.4 is so full of AWT
bugs as to be of limited usefulness.
 
R

Roedy Green

Now you're telling me that Microsoft is destroying Java.

It's all so confusing.

MS have been successful in derailing Applets with their Trojan JVM
installed in IE.

They have given Applets an undeserved black eye.

In other areas of Java, MS was unsuccessful, e.g. servers, handhelds,
cell phones.
 
R

Roedy Green

I wish MS and Sun would just come to some kind of agreement that would let
MS ship Java2 with Windows and Internet Exploder, but it's not going to happen.
The people running MS have huge egos,

It is not just egos. IBM behaved the same way when it was in a
similar monopoly position. They too fought standardization. Java is
a form of standardisation that makes it easy to switch OSes and
hardware.

A monopolist has to lock his customers in to proprietary systems. That
way he cans still charge much more than a competitor without worrying
about defection.
 
J

Jim Cochrane

It is not just egos. IBM behaved the same way when it was in a
similar monopoly position. They too fought standardization. Java is
a form of standardisation that makes it easy to switch OSes and
hardware.

A monopolist has to lock his customers in to proprietary systems. That
way he cans still charge much more than a competitor without worrying
about defection.

There's always the supply and demand factor. If enough MS customers demand
an up-to-date, reliable JVM, MS will likely not want to risk the resulting
loss of profit if it does not respond to the demand. How likely is it that
this demand will occur? I don't know - I'd guess between 25 and 60%.
 
R

Roedy Green

Elaborate, please?

The natural evolution would have been to use Applets for data entry,
and send the digested information to a server. This would allow
bounds checking, etc. etc so that you would find out about errors the
keystroke you made them.

This did not happen.

We are putting up with THIN clients, browser-only, ones with zero
intelligence that submit entire forms to the server to do the
validations that would normally be done at the keystroke level,
treating our users with contempt. We did better in the days of the
keypunch. At least then you had numeric/alpha keystroke validation,
and right justification.

MS so buggered up Applets that very few serious programs work as
Applets. Then to add insult to injury, when they dropped support for
their non-standard JVM, they left the corpse in IE, to take precedence
over a real JVM. It is a Trojan horse -- essentially a phony JVM.

In emotional terms it was spite. In economic terms, it was abuse of
monopoly power.
 
S

Sudsy

Roedy Green wrote:
The natural evolution would have been to use Applets for data entry,
and send the digested information to a server. This would allow
bounds checking, etc. etc so that you would find out about errors the
keystroke you made them.

This did not happen.

We are putting up with THIN clients, browser-only, ones with zero
intelligence that submit entire forms to the server to do the
validations that would normally be done at the keystroke level,
treating our users with contempt. <snip>

To be fair, you can NEVER trust the client in a client-server
architecture. Someone will always find a way to present invalid
data to the server. You have to validate at both ends. Heck,
with a protocol like HTTP you have no choice: the data can be
generated by applications, not just users.
So instead of lamenting what applets COULD have become, take
advantage of the technologies available.
You obviously don't like the thin-client model, but to me it
represents the ultimate in accessibility and portability.
Same glass, different perception...
 
R

Roedy Green

To be fair, you can NEVER trust the client in a client-server
architecture. Someone will always find a way to present invalid
data to the server.

You MUST validate in the workstation and revalidate in the server.
That duplication is no excuse for failing to do keystroke validation.
You do it to make life tolerable for your client.

Think how many times you have given up in disgust trying to fill in
some stupid form on the Internet. Think how many technopeasants they
have discouraged. Thin clients are a tool for infuriating and scaring
off customers.

FORMS are so pathetically inept the way they do ZERO validation. Even
a 3270 from the 1970s could do better than that. Even a KEYPUNCH could
do better than that. Further they FORGET values when you retry.

The way to do it properly is to use a thick client to do keystroke
validation, field by field prompting, then send the data off in tidy
form to the server.

The validation does NOT have to be repeated in full. For example a
number sent in binary need only be validated on bounds. There is no
need to recheck for alpha, number of decimal places, total fill etc.

The solution will be a tool that generates consistent code both for
the server and for client from the same set of validation specs.

The other half of the tool will be like a vCard that fills in forms
with the standard bubblegum, with your approval. Think how many
thousand times you have entered your name, address, email address,
snail address into some form, field by field or even keystroke by
keystroke if you don't use Opera.
 
R

Roedy Green

You obviously don't like the thin-client model, but to me it
represents the ultimate in accessibility and portability.
Same glass, different perception...

You are kidding aren't you?
 
T

Tor Iver Wilhelmsen

Roedy Green said:
They have given Applets an undeserved black eye.

I'd rather blame the INCREDIBLY buggy and far more incomplete
implementations (lack of 1.1 event model - later added, their own
security system instead of using java.security) that Netscape shipped.
 

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