The Oracle/Google lawsuits, and how it affects choice of language

S

Simon Brooke

Oracle are suing Google over Google's use of Dalvik on Android; you can
find the details here:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100815110101756

The details, however, are not what's concerning me. What's concerning me
is Oracle's apparent willingness to sue people operating in the Java
space. Let's face it, if Oracle sues Google, Google can afford to fight;
if Oracle sues you or me, regardless of the merits of the case, we fold.

I'm at the point of starting work on a new generation of my main
infrastructure layer, which supports all my products; I was going to use
Java+Clojure+XSL, because that's an environment I'm comfortable in. But I
have to admit this lawsuit has shaken me.

Is anyone else concerned by Oracle's apparently more confrontational
approach to working with other members of the Java community? Is anyone
concerned enough to change language? If so, what language(s) are you
switching to, and why?
 
L

Lew

Simon said:
Oracle are suing Google over Google's use of Dalvik on Android; you can
find the details here:http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100815110101756

The details, however, are not what's concerning me. What's concerning me
is Oracle's apparent willingness to sue people operating in the Java
space. Let's face it, if Oracle sues Google, Google can afford to fight;
if Oracle sues you or me, regardless of the merits of the case, we fold.

I'm at the point of starting work on a new generation of my main
infrastructure layer, which supports all my products; I was going to use
Java+Clojure+XSL, because that's an environment I'm comfortable in. But I
have to admit this lawsuit has shaken me.

Is anyone else concerned by Oracle's apparently more confrontational
approach to working with other members of the Java community? Is anyone
concerned enough to change language? If so, what language(s) are you
switching to, and why?

Not I.

I don't know how Google thought they'd get away with blatant patent
infringement in the first place. Their disingenuous attempt to garner
public support by their self-portrayal as a champion of "Open Source"
against the big, bad Google wolf is blatant B.S. Google did their
best to dissociate "Dalvik" from Java until it suited their public
relations purposes.

As for your concerns, you aren't in the Java ME space, so chances are
you'll be fine. Unlike Google, you are no doubt not inventing your
own version of Java (and rebranding it), so no one can accuse you of
violating any patents there. Apples and oranges. Just use whatever
version of Java (Oracle's own? You're in compliance!) in accordance
with the license under which you acquired it.

Don't be fooled by Google's spin doctors.
 
L

Lew

Lew said:
I don't know how Google thought they'd get away with blatant patent
infringement in the first place.  Their disingenuous attempt to garner
public support by their self-portrayal as a champion of "Open Source"
against the big, bad Oracle
wolf is blatant B.S.  Google did their
best to dissociate "Dalvik" from Java until it suited their public
relations purposes.

Oops.
 
A

Alan Gutierrez

Simon said:
Oracle are suing Google over Google's use of Dalvik on Android; you can
find the details here:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100815110101756

The details, however, are not what's concerning me. What's concerning me
is Oracle's apparent willingness to sue people operating in the Java
space. Let's face it, if Oracle sues Google, Google can afford to fight;
if Oracle sues you or me, regardless of the merits of the case, we fold.

I'm at the point of starting work on a new generation of my main
infrastructure layer, which supports all my products; I was going to use
Java+Clojure+XSL, because that's an environment I'm comfortable in. But I
have to admit this lawsuit has shaken me.

Is anyone else concerned by Oracle's apparently more confrontational
approach to working with other members of the Java community? Is anyone
concerned enough to change language? If so, what language(s) are you
switching to, and why?

Node.js.

I spent most of last week, walking in the park, thinking a lot about my
personal investment in Java, and through a lot of anger.

This move by Oracle and Ellison comes on the heels of a personal
epiphany, and gives me something to talk with my co-workers about. My
divestment in Java had already begun, and it began because of an
investigation of Node.js.

I suddenly wanted to experiment with peer-to-peer networking, for
whatever reason. In the many years in the Java community, I've known to
keep my aspirations to myself, otherwise I'd be chided for "reinventing
the wheel", or else told that if I wanted to contribute, there was an
Apache project that was doing the same thing. There has always been this
institutionalized incuriousness to Java, and that has made me resentful
of Java.

I'd spent the better part of a year, working on better ways of doing
things in Java, and was going to release this through GitHub, but I knew
it would be rather pointless, for a great many reasons. That trying to
create something of your own in Java puts you in the class of crazy
trollish person with their secret genius project.

I'd spent the better part of a year, walking back from the a
StationWagon is a Car mode of programming, where everything is an
Object, and an Account debits itself, and if it doesn't it is an "anemic
object", and if anyone sees chained method calls, you end up in a debate
about the Law of Demeter talking about whether the Paperboy should ask
for to be paid, or reach into the Wallet of the Customer. Basically,
walking back from a worked of interfaces, and toward a world of
implementations. It seems that the program to interfaces, not
implementations mantra has been so effective, no one seems to be
actually implementing anything anymore.

I like this community here. You are all nice and helpful and supportive
of people who ask questions. However, there is an incredible community
that is collaborating on Google V8 and Node.js.

What draws me to Node.js and not, oh, say, Python. It compiles to a 5.1
MB binary that is easily redistributed. You don't have to subject the
user to an installer that is branded by someone else. It is tiny and
performant. The Google V8 JavaScript engine does many little objects
well, with a generational Garbage Collector, and it knows how to create
classes from your prototypes, so the represenations of the objects
themsleves are small.

Which is why I came to Java from Perl and back to Java from Ruby,
because I wanted to program with types, patterns that employ many small
objects, which falls down in the previous generation of scripting
languages. Google V8 allows many small objects, which means programming
with lots of types, duck types, but types none the less.

If you must be on Windows, then Rakudo is ready, and it is next
generation interpreter that is intelligent about types and garbage
collection, and then if you're on Windows, you'll probably move to C# or
F# or the like.

The mixture I want is, smart memory management, small footprint, and an
easy way to implement native bindings. But, you can add to that, of
course, a community language, with no corporate owner, like Rakudo and V8.

I'm converting my Java projects to Node.js now, which means throwing
away a lot of Java I'd written. I had my own way, a better way of doing
things, using Java, but throwing away all of the bureaucracy; methods
are *not* contracts, *not* everything is a black box, creating trees of
objects is a healthy practice and does *not* violate any law. My way of
doing Java was better, I thought, and I'd advocate it someday, I
thought, and all my code is on GitHub, but I'd make nice pages and
documentation for it and share it with people, I thought, but...

The Node.js way is better than my Java world. I'm delving into the
projects I was working toward, the distributed database exploration, in
Node.js. I'm using Connect and Express for my bread and butter web
programming stuff. I do Ruby on Rails for bread and butter as well,
maintaining a boundary between my stuff and their stuff, for certain
people I work for/with.

Now, I'm going through Thunderbird and unsubscribing from various Java
listservs, and there are so few I've been able to participate in, Jetty
User/Dev, Guice, Guice Warp, Antlr, XOM, Signpost, Lucene Dev/User,
Stripes Users. So many places to lurk, to ask for tech support, but no
place to discuss, find like minds and collaborations. The #java IRC
channel is about as civil as the comments section of a police Taser
video at YouTube.

The Node.js community is all together on IRC and their listserv. (Perl 6
is also quite coherent and civil.) I can ask a question about anything,
and get an answer. If I ask about a particular utility that does not
exist, immediately there is a discussion about how to implement it.

These are people who are programming implementations. They see C++ and
object orientation as a means to an end, and not an end in itself. There
are a lot of cool things to do. I'm able to work with Node.js to
experiment with distributed databases, which was still a ways off for me
in Java land, since I had a wheels left to reinvent before I got there.

I'm content that this is the right direction for me and I'm busy
deleting Java from my life. This lawsuit is a funny thing to have happen
just as I walk out the door. It makes me realize that Java is not, and
never has been about the programmer. It is about creating an environment
where programmers are interchangeable bureaucrats.
 
S

Simon Brooke


That I didn't know about; it looks very interesting, thank you.
I spent most of last week, walking in the park, thinking a lot about my
personal investment in Java, and through a lot of anger.

I know the feeling. I've built a lot in Java over the past fourteen
years. Some of it is very good (and some less so). It's become like a
comfortable old jacket, familiar but serviceable. But am I prepared to
bet the next ten years of my career on it, now it has fallen under
Ellison's custodianship? I'm not sure.

I'm also looking hard at LISP-like things. I used LISP before I used
Java, and recently I've been doing a fair bit with Clojure; although you
can do very LISPy things in JavaScript I find LISP syntax more
comfortable, and the macros are very useful.

Finally on my current list there's Lua, which seems nicely performant
while being reasonably expressive.
 
A

Alan Gutierrez

Simon said:
That I didn't know about; it looks very interesting, thank you.


I know the feeling. I've built a lot in Java over the past fourteen
years. Some of it is very good (and some less so). It's become like a
comfortable old jacket, familiar but serviceable. But am I prepared to
bet the next ten years of my career on it, now it has fallen under
Ellison's custodianship? I'm not sure.

I'm also looking hard at LISP-like things. I used LISP before I used
Java, and recently I've been doing a fair bit with Clojure; although you
can do very LISPy things in JavaScript I find LISP syntax more
comfortable, and the macros are very useful.

Finally on my current list there's Lua, which seems nicely performant
while being reasonably expressive.

Haskell makes small binaries that are cross-platform as well. It is
strongly typed, so all the sleep lost by a Java programmer over typing
might not have been wasted with a move to Haskell. I looked at Haskell,
Scheme, Erlang and OCaml (read their websites, no real code) and that is
my order of interest. I'd forgotten about Lua and will have a look now.

The Node.js combination allows me to write in C/C++ for native bindings,
and then in Javascript for object-functional rapid development, so
Javascript is my production functional language for now. CoffeeScript is
a more functional language that compiles to Javascript.

I'm not interested in staying on the JVM. I want native binaries or a
tiny, tiny runtime that I can redistribute myself.
 
S

Screamin Lord Byron


Me neither.

I don't know how Google thought they'd get away with blatant patent
infringement in the first place. Their disingenuous attempt to garner
public support by their self-portrayal as a champion of "Open Source"
against the big, bad Google wolf is blatant B.S. Google did their
best to dissociate "Dalvik" from Java until it suited their public
relations purposes.

I'm with Google on this one. Not because of their B.S. propaganda, but
because I think Android truly is the best thing that happened to the
embedded world and shutting it down wouldn't do any good to anyone.

In this lawsuit everything revolves around patents. I find Oracle's
patent infringement claims a bit laughable. But then again, I feel the
same about USA software patent system in general. It is possible that
most of their patent complaints can be refuted by prior art. Here is one
very good (and long) blog entry worth glancing over if not reading
thoroughly:

http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Oracle are suing Google over Google's use of Dalvik on Android; you can
find the details here:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100815110101756

The details, however, are not what's concerning me. What's concerning me
is Oracle's apparent willingness to sue people operating in the Java
space. Let's face it, if Oracle sues Google, Google can afford to fight;
if Oracle sues you or me, regardless of the merits of the case, we fold.

I'm at the point of starting work on a new generation of my main
infrastructure layer, which supports all my products; I was going to use
Java+Clojure+XSL, because that's an environment I'm comfortable in. But I
have to admit this lawsuit has shaken me.

Is anyone else concerned by Oracle's apparently more confrontational
approach to working with other members of the Java community? Is anyone
concerned enough to change language? If so, what language(s) are you
switching to, and why?

I can not really see why anyone should change their language
preferences.

If you don't infringe on other companies patents and copyrights,
then you were safe before and after.

If you do infringe on other companies patents and copyrights,
then you were neither safe before or after.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Not I.

I don't know how Google thought they'd get away with blatant patent
infringement in the first place.

I am not so sure that the patent infringement claims will fly.

There is a walk through of the patents at:

http://www.theserverside.com/report/The-Oracle-Google-Patent-Lawsuit-Demystified

Well - the author is definitely anti-Oracle in this case, but I still
think he manage top raise some serious doubts about the merits of
Oracle's claims.
Their disingenuous attempt to garner
public support by their self-portrayal as a champion of "Open Source"
against the big, bad Google wolf is blatant B.S. Google did their
best to dissociate "Dalvik" from Java until it suited their public
relations purposes.

I don't see any change in Googles description of the software. It is
the Java language, some of the SE libs and different VM.

Sure Google is bullshitting a bit, but that is nothing new here. All
the "do no evil" is pure BS. Google is a company trying to make as
much money just like IBM, Oracle, MS etc..
As for your concerns, you aren't in the Java ME space, so chances are
you'll be fine. Unlike Google, you are no doubt not inventing your
own version of Java (and rebranding it), so no one can accuse you of
violating any patents there. Apples and oranges. Just use whatever
version of Java (Oracle's own? You're in compliance!) in accordance
with the license under which you acquired it.

The patents does not seem ME specific - not even Java specific.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Node.js.

I spent most of last week, walking in the park, thinking a lot about my
personal investment in Java, and through a lot of anger.

This move by Oracle and Ellison comes on the heels of a personal
epiphany, and gives me something to talk with my co-workers about. My
divestment in Java had already begun, and it began because of an
investigation of Node.js.

If you like node.js better than Java, then you should obviously
switch.

You should not switch because of the lawsuit. Because some of these
patents may apply to your new environment as well.

Arne
 
S

Simon Brooke

I can not really see why anyone should change their language
preferences.

If you don't infringe on other companies patents and copyrights, then
you were safe before and after.

This is bullshit. About twenty tears ago when I kept track of these
things, I knew of 37 US software patents for which I personally had
created prior art. Adobe and Corel fought a lawsuit over tabbed
toolboxes. I showed my prior art on that to the lawyers on both sides,
and neither were interested, despite the lawsuit eventually being settled
for a seven figure sum.

You cannot even in principle write software which does not infringe on
other companies' patents, because even if it doesn't infringe against any
patent existing at the time you write it, someone will later patent your
technique. Sure, you can fight it - if you have millions of dollars to
spend on lawyers. I don't.
If you do infringe on other companies patents and copyrights, then you
were neither safe before or after.

Which means, if you write software, then unless you do so as an employee
of a multi-billion dollar company, you can never be safe.
 
D

David

Oracle are suing Google over Google's use of Dalvik on Android; you can
find the details here:http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20100815110101756

The details, however, are not what's concerning me. What's concerning me
is Oracle's apparent willingness to sue people operating in the Java
space. Let's face it, if Oracle sues Google, Google can afford to fight;
if Oracle sues you or me, regardless of the merits of the case, we fold.

I'm at the point of starting work on a new generation of my main
infrastructure layer, which supports all my products; I was going to use
Java+Clojure+XSL, because that's an environment I'm comfortable in. But I
have to admit this lawsuit has shaken me.

Is anyone else concerned by Oracle's apparently more confrontational
approach to working with other members of the Java community? Is anyone
concerned enough to change language? If so, what language(s) are you
switching to, and why?

A good overview of this case can be found at www.groklaw.net, and it's
worth taking the time to read it.

I'm not overly worried because:
* The patent claims seem to be vague and not actually about Android;
* The Bilski case has changed the patent landscape in the US,
effectively gutting most of the claims; and
* The patents apply only to a few countries - in Europe they aren't
enforceable (for the time being anyway).

For Oracle this is simply an opportunity to get some cash out of
Google. They won't come after small firms because (as you point out)
they'd just fold. There's no money in that so no point.

Oracle have seriously misjudged the impact of the backlash against
them. With so many people losing their fondness for Java, the impact
on their bottom line will temper this lawsuit quickly I think.

In the end, there is nothing that Oracle can do to Java to kill it
(beyond inept meddling that makes it die slowly over the next few
years), or anyone using it. It's an open spec and there exists an open
JVM released under the GPL (IcedTea). I've not used it myself but it's
something I'm looking at for the future.

If this trend continues, then Oracle would get nothing but
acknowledgements in our license documents.

That's my reading anyway. What do others think?
 
J

Joshua Cranmer

* The Bilski case has changed the patent landscape in the US,
effectively gutting most of the claims; and

Actually, not really. The decision more or less states "the status quo
continues," and it pretty explicitly says that software patent
eligibility is not being decided in the decision. About the only clear
thing it said was that "State St. is a load of bullshit", but nor did it
endorse the machine-or-transformation test from the appeals court.

Granted, I don't think a software patent has truly been tested since
Diamond v. Diehr (a very different ballgame), and that was decades ago,
so what the Supreme Court would decide in such a case is very much iffy.
Oracle have seriously misjudged the impact of the backlash against
them. With so many people losing their fondness for Java, the impact
on their bottom line will temper this lawsuit quickly I think.

Oracle pretty much bought Sun for Java, from what I've heard. They've
killed off the OpenSolaris project, to the chagrin of many, and they
seem to be busy locking a lot of Java stuff behind paywalls too.

The best I can say is that I hope Oracle ends up being forced to
regurgitate Sun later on.
In the end, there is nothing that Oracle can do to Java to kill it
(beyond inept meddling that makes it die slowly over the next few
years), or anyone using it. It's an open spec and there exists an open
JVM released under the GPL (IcedTea). I've not used it myself but it's
something I'm looking at for the future.

Well... the brouhaha over Java 7 features shows that "improving" it is
difficult, even for Sun. In any case, at the way it's going, I wouldn't
be suprised if Oracle tried to kill OpenJDK. They already killed
OpenSolaris...
 
R

Robert Tomsick

Screamin said:
Me neither.



I'm with Google on this one. Not because of their B.S. propaganda, but
because I think Android truly is the best thing that happened to the
embedded world and shutting it down wouldn't do any good to anyone.

In this lawsuit everything revolves around patents. I find Oracle's
patent infringement claims a bit laughable. But then again, I feel the
same about USA software patent system in general. It is possible that
most of their patent complaints can be refuted by prior art. Here is one
very good (and long) blog entry worth glancing over if not reading
thoroughly:

http://blog.headius.com/2010/08/my-thoughts-on-oracle-v-google.html

I'm not really sure I think Android has been a net positive for the open
source community. It certainly hasn't been a net negative, but as of yet
I'm having trouble pointing to areas where it's provided a clear benefit.

In theory since Android is based on Linux, widespread deployment of Google's
mobile OS is good for Linux as it boosts the number of Linux boxes out
there. But it's certainly not an entirely open OS (a good chunk of the
userland is closed source), and even the kernel is (as of now) still a fork.
Aside from simply being able to say "my phone runs Linux", I'm not really
sure how Android is good from an open-source standpoint.

Even worse is the fact that, unlike with desktop installations of Linux,
Android installs are often crippled by DRM-laden hardware (ala. Motorola's
Droid series) that prevents users from modifying the software on their own
phone. Google could easily have prevented this (or at least strongly
discouraged this) by refusing to license the Android trademark or denying
access to the Marketplace to companies that did this, but it was pretty
clear that playing ball with the carriers and manufacturers was more
important than ensuring that their users could do as they pleased with their
own hardware.

So in short: I don't think Android's done any harm to the open source
community, but I'm not sure it's been much of a help either.

(Note: I actually *like* Android as a mobile OS -- this isn't a critique of
its performance in that regard, but rather of whether or not it is a good
thing for the open source community.)

-Rob
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

This is bullshit. About twenty tears ago when I kept track of these
things, I knew of 37 US software patents for which I personally had
created prior art. Adobe and Corel fought a lawsuit over tabbed
toolboxes. I showed my prior art on that to the lawyers on both sides,
and neither were interested, despite the lawsuit eventually being settled
for a seven figure sum.

You cannot even in principle write software which does not infringe on
other companies' patents, because even if it doesn't infringe against any
patent existing at the time you write it, someone will later patent your
technique. Sure, you can fight it - if you have millions of dollars to
spend on lawyers. I don't.


Which means, if you write software, then unless you do so as an employee
of a multi-billion dollar company, you can never be safe.

You are correct that there is a third situation: you have not
infringed, but you don't have the money to fight in court, so
you have to pay anyway.

But the point I am trying to get through is still valid. Nothing
has changed with this case.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

A good overview of this case can be found at www.groklaw.net, and it's
worth taking the time to read it.

They are usually a pretty bad source for objective info. They have
their own agenda.

People should read the original letter from Oracle to the court:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/35811761/Oracle-s-complaint-against-Google-for-Java-patent-infringement

and maybe look up the patents listed.
For Oracle this is simply an opportunity to get some cash out of
Google. They won't come after small firms because (as you point out)
they'd just fold. There's no money in that so no point.

True.

And besides small companies rarely creates VM's that may or may not
infringe on those patents.
Oracle have seriously misjudged the impact of the backlash against
them. With so many people losing their fondness for Java, the impact
on their bottom line will temper this lawsuit quickly I think.

I would expect the impact to their bottom line to be around zero.

Those that decide to buy Oracle stuff will not stop doing so due to
a patent case.

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

In the end, there is nothing that Oracle can do to Java to kill it
(beyond inept meddling that makes it die slowly over the next few
years), or anyone using it. It's an open spec and there exists an open
JVM released under the GPL (IcedTea). I've not used it myself but it's
something I'm looking at for the future.

OpenJDK which I believe IcedTea is a fork of is the same.

Ditto GCJ.

Harmony is Apache license.

They can not kill Java.

Neither do I think they would want to. Oracle is heavily dependent
on Java for all their ERP/CRM stuff.

IBM and Oracle are the two companies that will loose most money if
Java disappeared tomorrow.

And Larry may be greedy but he is still a smart guy!

Arne
 
A

Arne Vajhøj

Well... the brouhaha over Java 7 features shows that "improving" it is
difficult, even for Sun. In any case, at the way it's going, I wouldn't
be suprised if Oracle tried to kill OpenJDK. They already killed
OpenSolaris...

That will probably depend on whether OpenJDK provides benefits
for Oracle or not.

Oracle is a business.

And Oracle does not have any obligation to anyone except
their stockholders. If the community want then they can
continue working on the code, because it is open source.

But even if they kill OpenJDK, then I doubt that it will have
much impact. It is not that important in the market.

Arne
 
R

RedGrittyBrick

They are usually a pretty bad source for objective info.

I disagree, consider
They have their own agenda.

I've never had a problem distinguishing commentary from factual
records on Groklaw. PJ clearly makes an effort to maintain that distinction.


First link on GrokLaw's Oracle vs Google timeline page.
 
S

Simon Brooke

That will probably depend on whether OpenJDK provides benefits for
Oracle or not.

Oracle is a business.

And Oracle does not have any obligation to anyone except their
stockholders.

This is true. Are you prepared to bet your career on a language owned and
controlled by a company which, as you say, does not have an obligation to
you?
If the community want then they can continue working on
the code, because it is open source.

Not if they can get a judge to decide that it violates their patents, and
that all copies of it must be destroyed in consequence, which is what
they're trying with Android.
 

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