up with PyGUI!

Discussion in 'Python' started by Zooko O'Whielacronx, Sep 14, 2004.

  1. I'm a fan of Greg Ewing's PyGUI [1]. I used it to code a simple game
    for my son [2], and enjoyed it. Programming with wxPython feels like
    programming with a C++ tool that has been wrapped in Python.
    Programming with PyGUI feels like programming with a real Python tool.

    If you're developing a commercial application in Python, wxPython is
    currently the only option that offers native widgets on w32. It would
    be a boost for Python if PyGUI got a native w32 backend.

    Therefore, I offer the following suggestions:

    Python programmers: use PyGUI! It's nice. Contribute bug reports and
    so forth.

    Python developers: Is it too early to include PyGUI in the standard
    library? It seems stable to me.

    PSF: If anyone applies for a grant [3] to put a proper w32 backend into
    PyGUI, please give them money. I would offer to do that job myself,
    but (a) I'm not w32 expert and (b) I'm busy trying to make one of those
    aforementioned commercial apps.

    Thanks,

    Zooko, Journeyman Hacker

    [1] http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui/
    [2] http://zooko.com/log-2004.html#d2004-06-23
    [3] http://python.org/psf/call-2004.html
     
    Zooko O'Whielacronx, Sep 14, 2004
    #1
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  2. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    "Zooko O'Whielacronx" <> writes:

    > If you're developing a commercial application in Python, wxPython is
    > currently the only option that offers native widgets on w32. It would
    > be a boost for Python if PyGUI got a native w32 backend.


    Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot available
    on their own website. How can we see how it looks without downloading,
    it?


    BTW, I got really interested on the tool used to draw the diagrams on
    this page:
    http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui/version/Doc/ownership.html



    Be seeing you,
    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 14, 2004
    #2
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  3. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    pitkali Guest

    Jorge Godoy wrote:

    > Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    > understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot available
    > on their own website. How can we see how it looks without downloading,
    > it?


    It says explicitly what toolkits are used. Don't you know how gtk2 looks
    like?

    Regards,

    --
    * Piotr (pitkali) Kalinowski * mailto: pitkali (at) o2 (dot) pl *
    * Registered Linux User No. 282090 * Powered by Gentoo Linux *
    * Fingerprint: D5BB 27C7 9993 50BB A1D2 33F5 961E FE1E D049 4FCD *
     
    pitkali, Sep 14, 2004
    #3
  4. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Phil Frost Guest

    Phil Frost, Sep 14, 2004
    #4
  5. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    pitkali <> writes:

    > Jorge Godoy wrote:
    >
    >> Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    >> understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot available
    >> on their own website. How can we see how it looks without downloading,
    >> it?

    >
    > It says explicitly what toolkits are used. Don't you know how gtk2 looks
    > like?


    Yes, I do, but I don't know how it is supposed to look like from this
    toolit perspective... If I wanted everything exactly like GTK2, I'd
    probably use it.

    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 14, 2004
    #5
  6. Jorge> Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    Jorge> understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot
    Jorge> available on their own website. How can we see how it looks
    Jorge> without downloading, it?

    On Unix and Windows it looks like any GTK app. On MacOSX I presume (haven't
    tried it there yet) it looks like any other Mac app.

    Skip
     
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 14, 2004
    #6
  7. Jorge> Yes, I do, but I don't know how it is supposed to look like from
    Jorge> this toolit perspective... If I wanted everything exactly like
    Jorge> GTK2, I'd probably use it.

    That's not what PyGUI is about. It's about a better, standard API for
    creating GUI apps.

    Skip
     
    Skip Montanaro, Sep 14, 2004
    #7
  8. Jorge Godoy <> wrote:
    ...
    > > It says explicitly what toolkits are used. Don't you know how gtk2 looks
    > > like?

    >
    > Yes, I do, but I don't know how it is supposed to look like from this
    > toolit perspective... If I wanted everything exactly like GTK2, I'd
    > probably use it.


    ....and then it would look the same on a Mac, instead of a nice Aqua
    lool, right...?

    It seems to me that the point of PyGUI is ease of programming, rather
    than look-and-feel, which are supposed to be native on each platform
    (except no native win32 is supported yet, as far as I understand).


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 14, 2004
    #8
  9. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Hans Nowak Guest

    Zooko O'Whielacronx wrote:

    > I'm a fan of Greg Ewing's PyGUI [1]. I used it to code a simple game
    > for my son [2], and enjoyed it. Programming with wxPython feels like
    > programming with a C++ tool that has been wrapped in Python.


    This problem is addressed by Wax:

    http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/dope_on_wax.html
    http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/wax_primer.html
    http://zephyrfalcon.org/moin.cgi/Wax
    http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/wax_file_explorer.html

    (Sorry, no real homepage is available yet for Wax.)

    --
    Hans Nowak ()
    http://zephyrfalcon.org/
     
    Hans Nowak, Sep 15, 2004
    #9
  10. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    (Alex Martelli) writes:

    > Jorge Godoy <> wrote:
    > ...
    >> > It says explicitly what toolkits are used. Don't you know how gtk2 looks
    >> > like?

    >>
    >> Yes, I do, but I don't know how it is supposed to look like from this
    >> toolit perspective... If I wanted everything exactly like GTK2, I'd
    >> probably use it.

    >
    > ...and then it would look the same on a Mac, instead of a nice Aqua
    > lool, right...?
    >
    > It seems to me that the point of PyGUI is ease of programming, rather
    > than look-and-feel, which are supposed to be native on each platform
    > (except no native win32 is supported yet, as far as I understand).


    This was the point when I asked for screenshots. ;-)

    I was just answering to the "you know how GTK2 looks like" question.

    Even with a nice description and with the used toolkits described, I see
    no reason to not include a screenshot or at least an hiperlink to some
    screenshots.

    It is weird see a GUI project with no GUI screen in its description.

    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 15, 2004
    #10
  11. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    Skip Montanaro <> writes:

    > Jorge> Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    > Jorge> understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot
    > Jorge> available on their own website. How can we see how it looks
    > Jorge> without downloading, it?
    >
    > On Unix and Windows it looks like any GTK app. On MacOSX I presume (haven't
    > tried it there yet) it looks like any other Mac app.


    This is why I think screenshots are important: you wouldn't presume
    nothing you would see if they do look like other Mac apps or not. That
    was the point I raised on my first message.

    And it accepts either GTK1 and GTK2? (I don't remember the description
    right now... I'll look up in a while.) Does it accept GTK on Windows?
    Or it doesn't run in Windows at all for now?

    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 15, 2004
    #11
  12. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Greg Ewing Guest

    Jorge Godoy wrote:
    > Indeed... But first, I'm curious about how it looks. I don't
    > understand why people make GUI projects without any screenshot available
    > on their own website. How can we see how it looks without downloading,
    > it?


    How it looks isn't the point of PyGUI. The point is what
    the API is like, and you can see that from reading the
    online docs.

    There wouldn't be much to see in the screenshots anyway.
    On a Mac it looks like anything else does on a Mac, and
    on Linux or Windows it (currently) looks like anything
    else that uses Gtk.

    > BTW, I got really interested on the tool used to draw the diagrams on
    > this page:
    > http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui/
    > version/Doc/ownership.html


    As far as I can remember, I drew them with Appleworks 6,
    printed them to PDF files, opened them with Preview and
    then saved them as jpegs. (Photoshop might also have been
    involved in there somewhere, I don't recall now.)

    --
    Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
    University of Canterbury,
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg
     
    Greg Ewing, Sep 15, 2004
    #12
  13. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Greg Ewing Guest

    Jorge Godoy wrote:
    > And it accepts either GTK1 and GTK2?


    Only Gtk2.

    > Does it accept GTK on Windows?


    Yes, as far as I know. I haven't tested it myself,
    but I don't know of any reason it shouldn't work.

    --
    Greg Ewing, Computer Science Dept,
    University of Canterbury,
    Christchurch, New Zealand
    http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg
     
    Greg Ewing, Sep 15, 2004
    #13
  14. Hi !

    >>> (Sorry, no real homepage is available yet for Wax.)


    I am sorry also, because wax is fun.


    @-salutations
    --
    Michel Claveau
     
    Michel Claveau - abstraction méta-galactique non t, Sep 15, 2004
    #14
  15. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Harald Massa Guest

    Zooko

    > Python programmers: use PyGUI! It's nice. Contribute bug reports and
    > so forth.


    as I understand from the website, it looks quite similiar to "anygui"

    which was a very nice idea, that also ... kept being a nice idea.

    I suspect that Frameworks have to be in active use AND development for at
    least 4 years before considering them for the standard lib is of any use
    for anybody.

    Harald
     
    Harald Massa, Sep 15, 2004
    #15
  16. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Fritz Bosch Guest

    Greg Ewing <> wrote:
    ....
    > There wouldn't be much to see in the screenshots anyway.
    > On a Mac it looks like anything else does on a Mac, and
    > on Linux or Windows it (currently) looks like anything
    > else that uses Gtk.


    Being built with PyGUI using Gtk using Gimp, does my
    application become subject to the GPL?

    Fritz
     
    Fritz Bosch, Sep 15, 2004
    #16
  17. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    Greg Ewing <> writes:

    > How it looks isn't the point of PyGUI. The point is what
    > the API is like, and you can see that from reading the
    > online docs.


    I liked the API. This is what led me to question how it looks. When
    I'm developing something that is going to be "visual" to my clients, I'm
    interested on what I'm delivering them and how hard it is to achieve
    that (how much code, how to tie things together, etc.). But if the
    appearance is not good, it is better to choose another toolkit that
    might not have an API as good the the other one or to write something
    curses based... Appearance sells a lot, specially to Windows users.
    Quality and clearity of code is important to us, developers, but if you
    write ugly screens with beautiful code your product won't sell.

    > There wouldn't be much to see in the screenshots anyway.
    > On a Mac it looks like anything else does on a Mac, and
    > on Linux or Windows it (currently) looks like anything
    > else that uses Gtk.


    I'm not familiar with the looks on Macs... But I remember something of
    it, from the last visit to a store that has some of these here
    (I remember specially the design of the computers, the look of the
    applications seemed very interesting, but KDE is approaching it very
    fast, IMHO). I really would like a lot if it was possible to write
    non-GPL code with Qt (not that I'm against GPL software, but some
    clients already give me problem with their software being written on
    Python, imagine if I had to break too habits at once: closed
    software with closed tools...).

    On the other hand, GTK 2 is much better than GTK 1. They made a really
    nice job. I use it with wxPython and the results are very good. But
    then, I'm not a designer... I may just compare with other languages and
    other toolkit results.

    >> BTW, I got really interested on the tool used to draw the diagrams on
    >> this page:
    >> http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~greg/python_gui/
    >> version/Doc/ownership.html

    >
    > As far as I can remember, I drew them with Appleworks 6,
    > printed them to PDF files, opened them with Preview and
    > then saved them as jpegs. (Photoshop might also have been
    > involved in there somewhere, I don't recall now.)


    Too bad these aren't tools available on Linux or FreeBSD... I really
    liked the way they look :)


    Thanks for your attention and sorry for being such a PITA insisting on
    the screenshots on your website. I only do that because I liked the API
    ;-)


    Be seeing you,
    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 15, 2004
    #17
  18. Jorge Godoy <> wrote:
    ...
    > > On a Mac it looks like anything else does on a Mac, and
    > > on Linux or Windows it (currently) looks like anything
    > > else that uses Gtk.

    >
    > I'm not familiar with the looks on Macs... But I remember something of
    > it, from the last visit to a store that has some of these here
    > (I remember specially the design of the computers, the look of the
    > applications seemed very interesting, but KDE is approaching it very
    > fast, IMHO).


    IMNSHO, nope -- I'm quite a fan of KDE, but I discovered Macs 9 months
    ago and immediately fell in love with MacOSX's "Aqua" user interface
    look and feel. These days I use a Mac for everything I can possibly use
    one for, even though I mostly program for Linux (and a little Windows).

    > I really would like a lot if it was possible to write
    > non-GPL code with Qt (not that I'm against GPL software, but some


    It's perfectly possible: Trolltech, the authors of Qt, will be extremely
    happy to sell you a commercial license of Qt so you can develop and sell
    your code as closed-source or whatever.


    > > As far as I can remember, I drew them with Appleworks 6,
    > > printed them to PDF files, opened them with Preview and
    > > then saved them as jpegs. (Photoshop might also have been
    > > involved in there somewhere, I don't recall now.)

    >
    > Too bad these aren't tools available on Linux or FreeBSD... I really
    > liked the way they look :)


    Me too (well, not Photoshop, actually -- if I had to process images I
    think I'd use GIMP instead), so I use them on my Mac iBook 12" laptop
    (whose operating system's guts aren't all that far from FreeBSD --
    there's some Mach microkernel involved, but it's very unlikely that
    could possibly be a problem -- those guts are all opensource, too, under
    the name of 'Darwin').


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 15, 2004
    #18
  19. Am Wed, 15 Sep 2004 05:15:31 -0700 schrieb Fritz Bosch:

    > Greg Ewing <> wrote:
    > ...
    >> There wouldn't be much to see in the screenshots anyway.
    >> On a Mac it looks like anything else does on a Mac, and
    >> on Linux or Windows it (currently) looks like anything
    >> else that uses Gtk.

    >
    > Being built with PyGUI using Gtk using Gimp, does my
    > application become subject to the GPL?


    Hi,

    Gtk does not use Gimp. Gimp uses Gtk.
    And Gtk is AFAIK LGPL. You can use
    Gtk and pyGTK in your commercial application.

    Regards,
    Thomas
     
    Thomas Guettler, Sep 15, 2004
    #19
  20. Zooko O'Whielacronx

    Jorge Godoy Guest

    (Alex Martelli) writes:

    >> I really would like a lot if it was possible to write
    >> non-GPL code with Qt (not that I'm against GPL software, but some

    >
    > It's perfectly possible: Trolltech, the authors of Qt, will be extremely
    > happy to sell you a commercial license of Qt so you can develop and sell
    > your code as closed-source or whatever.


    Then I'd have to buy something like PyQT, and then I'd have to buy
    something like ... :)

    I like the widgets, and the visual, but I can't afford buying a whole
    toolchain for using it. So, I use the tools that are free, that allow
    the commercial use, and when it is not possible, I let the client choose
    paying for something commercial that he will keep after the project
    delivery (after all, he paid for that) or writing free software (free
    software was their choice 75% of the time, this is another reason I
    wouldn't invest on buying a license of Qt for commercial software...).

    > Me too (well, not Photoshop, actually -- if I had to process images I
    > think I'd use GIMP instead), so I use them on my Mac iBook 12" laptop
    > (whose operating system's guts aren't all that far from FreeBSD --
    > there's some Mach microkernel involved, but it's very unlikely that
    > could possibly be a problem -- those guts are all opensource, too, under
    > the name of 'Darwin').


    Indeed. Macs are cool, but expensive. Our salaries here in .br are not
    like your in the US or Europe... :)

    --
    Godoy. <>
     
    Jorge Godoy, Sep 15, 2004
    #20
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