Web Design: Would you design a PDF by writing Postscript in Notepad?

D

dorayme

"Jonathan N. Little said:
Then they are poorly done.

Not so, unless your standards are quite unrealistically high.
There is a maxim that is pretty well accepted around this church,
a pretty good one, the general form of which, goes:

You can break any design eventually by operating the controls
built into browsers.

But perhaps you are meaning to qualify your remarks to a range of
realistic user fiddlings, and then you are right on the button.
If a design beaks at just a few clicks either side of normal text
size, it is definitely bad design.
 
B

Ben C

OK, let me just again add a rider to the "skilled". Skilled in a
workmanlike way is often possible. But there is something else, I am
not sure if I am getting this idea across: touch, mastery, a bit of
elegance. If you want a stark quite closely related analogy, listen to
a very industrious indefatigable taker of piano lessons for 20 years
who was not born with a certain natural sense of touch. Compare it
with someone who has it but has had nowhere near the experience. The
latter might be very imperfect but has the ability to bring a lump in
the throat in certain passages of a sensitive listener. It is not a
matter of magic or anything, it is plain to see all around us in every
field, including the one that is the subject of this ng.

There is a spectrum though, which has being able to tie one's own
shoelaces at one end and playing the piano at the other. CSS is
somewhere in between, and if most of the people who want and need to use
it can't then it's probably too difficult.

It's not to say that you can't always go one better in mastery and
elegance- you can with almost anything-- but it's not necessary. With
piano playing it is.
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

dorayme said:
"Jonathan N. Little" <[email protected]> wrote:
But perhaps you are meaning to qualify your remarks to a range of
realistic user fiddlings, and then you are right on the button.
If a design beaks at just a few clicks either side of normal text
size, it is definitely bad design.
Personally I believe any design should handle a couple a bumps up or
down (in the Gecko and Opera) without falling apart, (for IE should
handle smallest to largest). It is not too difficult to accomplish.

Now taking Firefox on any site and hitting "CTRL +" like a lab rat on
crack until the text is so large only 2 characters can fit on the
screen...well I wouldn't expect a site to gracefully handle that!
 
L

Leonard Blaisdell

THO said:
Does anyone have an idea why the below message is displaying at a tiny
font size in MT Newswatcher 3.4 on 10.2.8?

I certainly don't for MT-NW 3.4. MT-NW 3.51 does address the problem and
solves it for me. I don't know if 10.2.8 supports MTNW 3.5.1 or 3.5.2.
If it does, upgrade.

leo
 
T

TaliesinSoft

Now taking Firefox on any site and hitting "CTRL +" like a lab rat on
crack until the text is so large only 2 characters can fit on the
screen...well I wouldn't expect a site to gracefully handle that!

Well, it only takes about three Ctrl-+ clicks with Firefox on the Adobe
website before the image becomes a hodgepodge, something that I don't think
would be of any help to someone visually impaired.
 
T

TaliesinSoft

I predict you will come to lose that desire for absolute control as you
come to appreciate the order of difficulty you face. You do not have
anything like the control over the variety of devices out there that are
used to receive your content as you do over your own. The difficulty is
one of being reasonably satisfied that your devices are accurate
representatives of the devices used by others. And so hard is this latter
that the absolute control you seek is best softened.

But, as I've repeatedly stated, every single modern day browser I've tested,
whether on the Mac or on the PC, when using that browser's default settings,
has displayed my website exactly as I have intended. I'll qualify that in
that I am not interested in how the site displays on such as a cell phone but
how the site displays on a typical computer.
 
B

Barry Margolin

Leonard Blaisdell said:
I certainly don't for MT-NW 3.4. MT-NW 3.51 does address the problem and
solves it for me. I don't know if 10.2.8 supports MTNW 3.5.1 or 3.5.2.
If it does, upgrade.

3.5.2 fixed many of them, but some people have reported still seeing the
problem since then.
 
A

Andy Dingley

No this is a much better way and it will resize with your screen!

I'd have done it much the same way (a linear stream of floated blocks)
but I'd go so far as to use <li> elements rather than <div>s.
 
B

Bergamot

TaliesinSoft said:
Well, it only takes about three Ctrl-+ clicks with Firefox on the Adobe
website before the image becomes a hodgepodge, something that I don't think
would be of any help to someone visually impaired.

Actually, I don't think Adobe's site is nearly as bad as you say. On the
home page there are a couple text overlaps with very long words like
"Telecommunications", but otherwise it adapts better than a lot of other
commercial sites.

If readability does become a problem, disabling stylesheets results in a
very usable page. They get kudos for that. Their image alt text is
generally pretty good, too.

How does your site do in comparison? ;)
 
B

Bergamot

TaliesinSoft said:
But, as I've repeatedly stated, every single modern day browser I've tested,
whether on the Mac or on the PC, when using that browser's default settings,
has displayed my website exactly as I have intended.

That's a mighty bold assumption you've made there, thinking everyone
uses default settings. Granted that the majority may, but some portion,
perhaps a significant one, will have their browser set differently. You
have no reliable way of predicting or tracking the actual percentages.
It is in your own best interest to ensure the site is at least usable in
other settings. That's where your own site comes up short.
I'll qualify that in
that I am not interested in how the site displays on such as a cell phone

And I'll qualify that not all sites need to, especially a personal site,
but it can take very little effort to make a site compatible with such
devices. So why not just do it?
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

Andy said:
I'd have done it much the same way (a linear stream of floated blocks)
but I'd go so far as to use <li> elements rather than <div>s.
Hmm, semantically consistent. UL can be a little less flexible in
styling over the plain old block element DIV, but sure it could work.
 
M

mike flugennock

I've been using -- or using and struggling, still -- with Dreamweaver
and its attendant learning curve. I'm sure it'll be like learning
PageMaker and Illustrator in the ancient times; I'll bang my head on it
for months, and then one day, epiphany.

That said, Dreamweaver is the first thing I've used that even comes
close to a proper Web layout equivalent after six or seven years of
fighting with several versions of PageMill, and the wretched html
conversion module in PageMaker 6.x.


--

..

"Though I could not caution all, I yet may warn a few:
Don't lend your hand to raise no flag atop no ship of fools!"

--grateful dead.
_______________________________________________________________
Mike Flugennock, flugennock at sinkers dot org
"Mikey'zine": dubya dubya dubya dot sinkers dot org
 
J

Jonathan N. Little

mike said:
I've been using -- or using and struggling, still -- with Dreamweaver
and its attendant learning curve. I'm sure it'll be like learning
PageMaker and Illustrator in the ancient times; I'll bang my head on it
for months, and then one day, epiphany.

That said, Dreamweaver is the first thing I've used that even comes
close to a proper Web layout equivalent after six or seven years of
fighting with several versions of PageMill, and the wretched html
conversion module in PageMaker 6.x.
If sinkers.org is your product of your efforts then "close" is not what
I would say. My advice is put Dreamweaver on hold and peruse the
tutorials on www.htmldog.com. You site is not that complicated and would
be easy to template...
 
T

TaliesinSoft

I've been using -- or using and struggling, still -- with Dreamweaver and its
attendant learning curve. I'm sure it'll be like learning PageMaker and
Illustrator in the ancient times; I'll bang my head on it for months, and
then one day, epiphany.

That said, Dreamweaver is the first thing I've used that even comes close to
a proper Web layout equivalent after six or seven years of fighting with
several versions of PageMill, and the wretched html conversion module in
PageMaker 6.x.

My suggestion is to take a look at Freeway <http://www.softpress.com/> which
allow one to create a website using a WYSIWYG interface. One can create the
site without having to have any knowledge whatsoever of HTML and friends.
I've looked at your site and it appears to me that creating such would be
trivial with Freeway.
 
A

Andy Dingley

Freeway maintains its own internal description of the site and the objects
contained therein.

[Long]
Lifted from my blog over at <http://quercus.livejournal.com/
157332.html>

It's widely known and accepted that "web design" should separate HTML
"structure" from CSS "presentation". This distinction works for
individual pages, but it's insufficient for whole-site design and even
for some aspects of page design.

There is much current interest in "semantic HTML", the idea that
document semantics are expressed by the HTML. This is limited by the
trivial semantic capability of unadorned HTML. Although broad
semantics are important for correctly authoring HTML, in turn HTML is
not able to express useful semantics.

Efficient site design should allow the re-use of CSS between pages.
Achieving this needs more than page-specific semantics, as those turn
out to be too context-sensitive and variable between pages.
Consistency of binding to styling across a large site must operate at
a deeper level than is expressible by HTML alone, or is typically
expressed by the simple use of HTML with class or id attributes.

A really good design must separate out more than this. It needs to
take a "Structuralist" view of HTML, in the sense of the post-WW2
French Structuralist linguists.

Saussure's distinction between langue and parole is relevant here.
HTML expresses the parole or "speech" but the stable underlying
meaning (which we need to recognise before we can attach a stable and
relevant presentation to it) must depend on the langue or "language"
instead. Our authoring task becomes to identify and manipulate this
level.
Application to WYSIWYG Editing Tools

The necessity for finding the langue is most evident in the problems
surrounding WYSIWYG editing. Thus far, WYSIWYG has been a failure in
providing useful web editing tools. This same failure is repeated and
similar in the case of all such tools. The reason for this is best
explained in a Structuralist context.

WYSIWYG has been successful for DTP and paper-based "page-design"
problems. It is an obviously attractive interface metaphor to extend
to web authors. Although such tools (e.g. DreamWeaver) have even
become popular, they still fail to be well-regarded by expert web
designers. This is usually put down merely to the mutability of web
rendering devices (i.e. desktop computers vs. phones) compared to
static paper. The author's view is that the Structuralist requirement
on authoring is more fundamental than this and must be addressed
before WYSIWYG editing can become successful.

Some axioms are assumed for the purpose of this essay:

* Technically incompetent WYSIWYG editors are obviously
incompetent and thus uninteresting. If an editor (e.g. FrontPage)
fails even to generate basically valid code, then its semantic basis
is of no interest.

* The needs of some authors can be met by the lowest of standards.
The Web is by design accommodating of error and such authoring still
has its place. This essay is focused at a rather higher level.

* The "What You See Is Not What Others See" problem of web-
authoring compared to static paper does not need to be re-stated.

A typical "best current practice" WYSIWYG editing tool might operate
in the following manner:

* "Content units" are placed on the page. Drag-and-drop tools
allow them to be positioned.

* The semantics of each unit are implied, by the author selecting
an appropriate HTML element to represent them. This operates at no
more than the bare HTML level of <div> / <p> / <li> etc.

* The length dimension for sizing and positioning the units is
chosen; hopefully as ems, but typically as pixels.

* Additional decorators may be applied manually as class or id
attributes.

* CSS may be manually edited for each unit, often attached
directly through the style attribute.

* Output HTML is generated. As a minimum (e.g. Freeware), each
unit gives rise to a <div> or similar element, with a CSS style
attribute using absolute positioning to place it onto the page. A more
sophisticated generator might extract this CSS into a stylesheet, but
still uses an ordinal identifier (i.e. an id attribute per element) to
link each element with its own CSS block.

Cruder output methods could bludgeon the long-suffering <table>
element with absolute positioning. Better ones might normalise some
CSS rules such that properties set to common values are grouped into
broader rules and their selectors simplified mechanically by simple
set logic.

Current WYSIWYG editing tools fail to support the following features,
in any way more sophisticated than that of source-level editing.

* Attaching CSS rules as a "style" by class, rather than ordinally
to an element.

* Attaching CSS to a set of elements, generating appropriate
selectors and possibly even additional class attributes in the HTML.

* Flexible positioning methods that recognise the varying
relationships between elements and choose appropriate positioning.

* Real understanding of the fluid nature of the "web canvas",
compared to static paper and page-layout.

Of these four omissions noted, only the last is part of the usually
identified "the web is not static paper" complaint on WYSIWYG web
authoring. The first indicate the need for a Structuralist
understanding of the site's meta-structure, so as to achieve real
progress towards a WYSIWYG editor.
Towards a Structuralist WYSIWYG editor

Such an editor makes manifest the underlying structure of the site and
documents. This structure forms the basis of the authoring operations.

Authoring now consists of two phases, executed iteratively. One is of
adding content to a meta-structure, the other is of refining this meta-
structure, either by describing it ab initio, or by inferring it from
existing HTML structure. The inferencing step can be used both to
import existing HTML content and also to continuously refactor a
site's structure as it is developed further. New structural content
may be attached to an existing simple meta-structure and the meta-
structure may then grow more complex as the structure is analysed and
refactored. This refactoring also permits a site to grow from an
initially empty meta structure.

Presentation styling is added manually, but operates upon the meta-
structure as a framework, rather than directly onto the structure. As
the meta-structure is more fundamental and stable than the structure,
this reduces time-consuming rework of trivia during the evolution of a
site.

Generation of the site's code is based on the structural elements, as
for the current generation of WYSIWYG editors. Annotation (through
HTML element selection, class and id) is also added automatically,
describing the structure's relation to the described meta-structure.
CSS output is based almost entirely on querying the meta-structural
model and outputting the necessary selectors and rules.

It is not clear as yet if such a structure must be stored separately
from the HTML, may be embedded into the HTML by explicit metadata, or
may reliably be inferred from the bare HTML structure. Obviously these
options are of increasing benefit, but also increasing difficulty in
their achievement.
 
B

Ben C

On 2007-02-19 said:
Saussure's distinction between langue and parole is relevant here.
HTML expresses the parole or "speech" but the stable underlying
meaning (which we need to recognise before we can attach a stable and
relevant presentation to it) must depend on the langue or "language"
instead.

I'm confused. Do you mean HTML itself is the speech, or that the
author's actual content is the speech?

You might think: HTML is a language, a document written in HTML is some
speech in that language. But I don't think that's what you mean: it
seems you a describing a different distinction, which I have trouble
grasping.

What, in terms accessible to the meanest intelligence, is Saussure's
distinction between langue and parole?

[...]
Presentation styling is added manually, but operates upon the meta-
structure as a framework, rather than directly onto the structure.

Is "structure" to "speech" as "meta-structure" is to "language"?
 
D

dorayme

TaliesinSoft said:
But, as I've repeatedly stated, every single modern day browser I've tested,
whether on the Mac or on the PC, when using that browser's default settings,
has displayed my website exactly as I have intended. I'll qualify that in
that I am not interested in how the site displays on such as a cell phone but
how the site displays on a typical computer.

I agree that your site is simple enough to justify to some
extent, your confidence in it. But what I am saying and what
others are suggesting to you will more and more come into its own
as you make other sites. The approach you are taking will become
to have more severe limitations as you contemplate more website
pages and sites.

Screens really do have a very diverse range of sizes and setting
out there... quite aside from the extremes.
 
A

Andy Dingley

I'm confused. Do you mean HTML itself is the speech, or that the
author's actual content is the speech?

I'm not surprised - neologism always tends to do this.

In Saussure's langue / parole model, "content" is the underlying langue
and HTML code is the visible but less vital parole. "Signified" and
"signifier", if you prefer the terms that are usually applied to "signs"
(as HTML elements would be termed in linguistics or semiotics).

Wiki is good on philosophy and linguistics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuralism
You might think: HTML is a language, a document written in HTML is some
speech in that language.

No, I mean a lower level than this. The simpler, nmore obvious level is
the HTML, the expression of a set of elements applied to specific usages
in one page's situation. The deeper level represents the structure that
re-occurs between pages in a site and is expressed through the same
recurrent groupings of element-meanings. It's hard to describe this any
more clearly because it is simply hard to do so -- our problem is that
we must first invent terminology to do it with. I think the concept
here is probably clearer to web authors than to some other groups -- it
is precisely those structures that are hard to define in HTML, but that
we find ourselves attaching the same CSS to them, because these complex
multi-element groupings (e,g a particular set of headers before a list,
followed by a paragraph) find themselves requiring to have the same
presentation styles applied to them.
What, in terms accessible to the meanest intelligence, is Saussure's
distinction between langue and parole?

It's famously difficult to read Saussure in the original (It was written
after he was dead, which is always hard on an author). However he first
defined the field, so we keep his terminology. It's easier to understand
by reading the later commentaries than the primary texts. I found
Structuralism through the structural anthropologists such as
Lévi-Strauss, who is a bit more accessible than the better-known
philosophers such as Derrida, Althusser or Foucault.

The core of Saussure's analysis could be said to be that signs
("elements" in our world) have two aspects: signifier and signified. The
signifier is the sound or symbol with which we express them and the
signified is the concept we actually mean behind them. Only the
signifier is immediately obvious, but only the signified conveys real
meaning. Any discussion about meaning must therefore keep this mapping
and its possible fluidity in mind. "Corpus linguistics" is thus not just
about the theoretical grammar of language, but about how it's actually
used in everyday use, so as to track the real meaning that's being
applied.

If the parole is restrictive and the conceptual langue deep, then this
mapping becomes complex and difficult to follow. It may not even be
_possible_ to (i.e. the text has become an ambiguous expression of what
may still be a strong concept). Often the concept only manages to
transmit itself by repeated readings of a number of different texts, or
by some additional information through another channel (does our editing
tool need an additional database?)

Then you can wander off into post-modern Foucaultian analyses where the
subjective perception of the text is mistaken for some great Illuminati
meta-narrative, positivist science flies out of the window and we all
start talking bollocks in black turtlenecks.
Is "structure" to "speech" as "meta-structure" is to "language"?

There's a risk of re-defining a new term that someone else has already
bagged, but within the narrow confines of my post today, then yes.
 

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