Web Design: Would you design a PDF by writing Postscript in Notepad?

[Ed Mullen]

Now being dumb, how do I view the site with stylesheets disabled?

In SeaMonkey, View - Use Style - none. In Firefox, View - Page Style -
No Style. In Opera, View - Style - User mode.

--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net
http://mozilla.edmullen.net
http://abington.edmullen.net
Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual trip around
the sun.

 

[Andy Dingley]

This might be the place for the "media" attribute of CSS. That way
there could be an appropriate description of the image content.

No need for the "media" feature, just let the page and its CSS degrade
naturally. This is what CSS is really good at, you have to work quite
hard to stop it working.

 

[Andy Dingley]

In the Ansel Adams site the 63 images included take a total of 596 KB, and
the code in the index.html page takes 40 KB. So why should I be concerned as
to just what construct the code uses given that the download time for the
code is a minimal component of the total download time for the page,

Again you're popping up these sophisticated but totally fallacies
arguments.

This isn't about the volume of the finished markup, it's about the
semantics of that markup and its robustness to varying display
contexts.

especially given that the generated code works as intended on every browser
on which it was checked?

That's because you think that "checking on browsers" is a sufficient
condition for good authoring.

As an aside, an advantage of Freeway is that if a new release makes an
improvement in the generated code it is a trivial matter to re-upload the
site to benefit from that improvement.

Why is this useful? It's only an editor! It ought to be getting it
right first time. If you told me it was a compression algorithm, then
you might have a point.

 

[dorayme]

Nope. The Russians didn't use pencils. Have you ever got a bit of pencil
in your eye? I can tell you that it isn't very nice. Now try writing in
zero-gravity with bits of graphite breaking off and floating around. A
nightmare to say the least.

The Russians used good-old-fashioned ballpoint pens, which work fine in
zero-gravity as they only rely on the flow of ink, which will occur
regardless of which way you hold a pen in space. Which is the opposite
of what happens on Earth, ie. hold the pen upside-down and gravity will
cause the ink to stop flowing. No gravity == no problem.

The equation is not good. If the ink is in the middle of the
plastic sleeve then there is no easy way to get it to to flow to
the ball.

 

[TaliesinSoft]

Why is this useful? It's only an editor! It ought to be getting it right
first time. If you told me it was a compression algorithm, then you might
have a point.

Freeway maintains its own internal description of the site and the objects
contained therein. It is only at the moment of publish/upload that the actual
code for the site is generated. If a new version of Freeway is released, one
that perhaps produces better code, all one has to do is to repeat the
publish/upload action to take advantage of the change. There is absolutely no
need to revise the Freeway description of the site itself.

 

[TaliesinSoft]

WebPics will resize images according to specifications supplied at
creation time. An example can be seen at
<http://johnandjennswedding.com/jennsfamilypage.html>

I have no idea what the difference in download time would be for identical
versions of a site, one implemented in Freeway and one in WebPics.

As an aside, I noted that the banner at the top of the site referenced
automatically centers while the pictures themselves are keyed to the left
margin. Is that something that is easily corrected in WebPics?

 

[dorayme]

Jeez Louise! It's hardly rocket science.

http://examples.tobyinkster.co.uk/food-menu

Tested:
Firefox 1.0.6 (Linux)
Opera 9.10 (Linux)
Konqueror 3.4.2 (Linux)
IE 6 (Win XP)
IE 7 (Win XP)

Might not be rocket science but it is nice. And shows a level of
skill you seem helplessly unable to grade (except to play safe by
saying it is not at rocket science level). There would be people
wanting to kill you for this effortless command. You can hardly
expect the average home website builder to come up with that.

 

[Calum]

As to why Adobe chose to not use Dreamweaver, that would be interesting to
know.

Probably because their website has been around for a lot longer than
they've owned Macromedia, and there wouldn't be much point in changing
over just for the hell of it.

 

[Paul Sture]

Take a look with stylesheets disabled.

How does one disable style sheets in Safari? Not important, but I'm
curious.

 

[dorayme]

Told you!

"Pretty soon you'll probably switch to the logical fallacy
of proof by example."

The heck he did. The conclusion in your prediction was "All
websites can be sized in pixels", whereas TaliesinSoft has not
gone so far. You don't actually need to put the boot in so hard,
you have made enough good and telling points.

 

[Bergamot]

In SeaMonkey, View - Use Style - none.

If you have the Web Developer extension installed, try CTRL+SHIFT+S

I use this on a lot more sites than should be necessary.

 

[Bergamot]

Curious, when displayed with FireFox i see the string "FreeCounter" in
the upper left-hand corner, but nothing when displayed with Safari.

That's a 1x1 image that's located on a 3rd party server. "FreeCounter"
is the alt text.

 

[TaliesinSoft]

TaliesinSoft wrote:


Probably because their website has been around for a lot longer than
they've owned Macromedia, and there wouldn't be much point in changing
over just for the hell of it.

So then, why didn't Adobe use their own GoLive which has been part of the
Adobe arsenal for quite a few years now, Adobe purchasing it in 1999.

 

[Jonathan N. Little]

[responding to my giving a reference to a site produced with Freeway Pro that
passed "strict" validation]

Nurse! New keyboards and the monitor wipes please!

This is beautiful in the Adams-like clarity of its demonstration of
cluelessness.

The last comment could be paraphrased as "Freeway looks like it over- uses
<table> markup when inappropriate, please show an example of better coding
style". So what do you do, you take an example that's a perfect situation
for legitimately using a <table>, then you do it with absolutely
positioned <div>s. Total perversity in appropriate markup.

If Jukka or Jonathan had done this, it would be funny. It might even be
convincing that Freeway could use non-table markup in _any_ situation. As
it is though, I have to suspect that it just shows a complete failure to
even understand what the issue is, let alone how to solve it.

But the fact remains that the website, whether one likes it or not, displays
in every browser tested, six of them, *exactly* as intended. If the results
are as wanted, why should I be concerned about the underlying code structure

Ant this is what your page looks like on a medium monitor, hmmm not
that's attractive!

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/temp/usenet/alt.html.20070216.jpg
alt.html.20070216.jpg (JPEG Image, 700x609 pixels)

No this is a much better way and it will resize with your screen! Since
it is just a list of thumbs just took about 10 min to do. You can
restyle it to look completely different.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/temp/usenet/alt.html.20070216.php
Better Way

 

[Tom Stiller]

The equation is not good. If the ink is in the middle of the
plastic sleeve then there is no easy way to get it to to flow to
the ball.

Shake it -- the way one does automatically when a ball-point won't write.

 

[Tom Stiller]

As an aside, I noted that the banner at the top of the site referenced
automatically centers while the pictures themselves are keyed to the left
margin. Is that something that is easily corrected in WebPics?

Yep.

 

[Tom Stiller]

No need for the "media" feature, just let the page and its CSS degrade
naturally. This is what CSS is really good at, you have to work quite
hard to stop it working.

Hmm, makes me wonder why they bothered to add "media: tty;" to the spec.

 

[TaliesinSoft]

Ant this is what your page looks like on a medium monitor, hmmm not that's
attractive!

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/temp/usenet/alt.html.20070216.jpg
alt.html.20070216.jpg (JPEG Image, 700x609 pixels)

No this is a much better way and it will resize with your screen! Since it
is just a list of thumbs just took about 10 min to do. You can restyle it
to look completely different.

http://www.littleworksstudio.com/temp/usenet/alt.html.20070216.php Better
Way

Many thanks!

I actually considered having the width be flexible, as in your "Better Way"
example, but rejected it. Why I can't exactly remember at the moment, but
when the brain cells bounce properly I'll post the reason.

 

[TaliesinSoft]

In SeaMonkey, View - Use Style - none. In Firefox, View - Page Style - No
Style. In Opera, View - Style - User mode.

I tried the disabling in Firefox. The result was that the positioning of all
of the objects was forgotten and that everything appeared left justified in a
vertical lineup. The question now is what should Freeway have done in terms
of the generated code to correct that, if indeed correction is possible?

 

[Calum]

So then, why didn't Adobe use their own GoLive which has been part of the
Adobe arsenal for quite a few years now, Adobe purchasing it in 1999.

Same reason, probably. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.