What is XHTML?

Discussion in 'HTML' started by Paul Furman, Feb 25, 2004.

  1. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    I checked google and this page seems to be trying to say it but still
    doesn't tell me:
    http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml
    So it lets people design new types of web presentation tools (like new
    html tags?) in a way that can be easily standardized (and automatically
    interpreted?). What I also have understood is that it's sort of a
    database type format that allows relation many-to-many type
    associations. It seems like it somehow takes whatever tricks the author
    has up their sleeve and interprets that into plain old html pages. So
    it's kind of a programming language like java where trickier things can
    be done and the browser knows how to read the script. In this canse I
    guess it must be limited to things that would not pose a security risk,
    such as simply presenting information but not effecting your machine in
    any way like java will do.

    Am I understanding this?

    Any examples of tricky things that could be done such as database
    manipulation?
    Paul Furman, Feb 25, 2004
    #1
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  2. Paul Furman wrote:
    > I checked google and this page seems to be trying to say it but still
    > doesn't tell me:
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml


    It says at the top of the page: "A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0".

    That's what most people use it for: As a slightly updated version of HTML.

    Whether you actually do all the 'wonderful' things that you could do
    because XHTML is also XML, is up to you.

    So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.


    Matthias
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Feb 25, 2004
    #2
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  3. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:

    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >
    >> I checked google and this page seems to be trying to say it but still
    >> doesn't tell me:
    >> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml

    >
    >
    > It says at the top of the page: "A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0".
    >
    > That's what most people use it for: As a slightly updated version of HTML.
    >
    > Whether you actually do all the 'wonderful' things that you could do
    > because XHTML is also XML, is up to you.
    >
    > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.



    OK so I guess I've got the general idea. Sounds like nobody is really
    using it yet. I can't find any example that looks special or does
    obvious database cartwheels. It seems to have more to do with custom
    database applications in web format than presentation formatting. I'm
    not clear what XML does that an SQL database doesn't do with server side
    scripting. Maybe that it contains it's own scripting so the database can
    be queried without stressing the server's machinery?
    Paul Furman, Feb 25, 2004
    #3
  4. Paul Furman

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Paul Furman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    >
    > > Paul Furman wrote:
    > >
    > >> I checked google and this page seems to be trying to say it but still
    > >> doesn't tell me:
    > >> http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml

    > >
    > >
    > > It says at the top of the page: "A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0".
    > >
    > > That's what most people use it for: As a slightly updated version of

    HTML.
    > >
    > > Whether you actually do all the 'wonderful' things that you could do
    > > because XHTML is also XML, is up to you.
    > >
    > > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.

    >
    >
    > OK so I guess I've got the general idea. Sounds like nobody is really
    > using it yet. I can't find any example that looks special or does
    > obvious database cartwheels. It seems to have more to do with custom
    > database applications in web format than presentation formatting. I'm
    > not clear what XML does that an SQL database doesn't do with server side
    > scripting. Maybe that it contains it's own scripting so the database can
    > be queried without stressing the server's machinery?


    XML provides a way of handling data at the client side that can be reused or
    distributed. XML is *not* for layout, purely for data. You then use XSL to
    format that data (stylesheets basically).

    XHTML is a more "perfect" version of HTML. It forces all tags to be closed
    with />, and is much less forgiving of the sort of cludges and fixes used in
    HTML. XHTML *is* used for layout (structure) while CSS is used to format
    objects inside that structure.

    Example; you can have an XHTML page that contains dynamic data (XML) that is
    fed from a SQL database. You could then happily have a portable web aware
    device (such as a PDA, cellphone, games console, whatever...) read that
    page - it would read the data (XML) totally independently from any screen
    "design", meaning that your content is readable anywhere, any how on any
    platform. It's a way of totally separating data (content) from design. XML
    is definatly the future. There are lots of web sites already doing this,
    have another look around.

    One word of caution with XML; Internet Explorer has fairly ropey support,
    while all the rival browsers seem to support it fully. While it works most
    of the time, it's essential XHTML/XML site are tested on as many platforms
    as possible while you're building sites... it's way less forgiving if you
    get it wrong!
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2004
    #4
  5. Paul Furman

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Firas D." <> wrote in message
    news:c1iq5c$1ivd0l$-berlin.de...
    > Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    > > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.

    >
    > I can tell you from experience that talking about XHTML is a serious
    > turn-off for girls, even the geeky sort :(


    depends on the girl honey ;)
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2004
    #5
  6. Paul Furman

    Firas D. Guest

    Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.


    I can tell you from experience that talking about XHTML is a serious
    turn-off for girls, even the geeky sort :(
    Firas D., Feb 25, 2004
    #6
  7. Paul Furman

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Matthias Gutfeldt" <> wrote in message
    news:c1iicv$1i8rkc$-berlin.de...
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    > > I checked google and this page seems to be trying to say it but still
    > > doesn't tell me:
    > > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml

    >
    > It says at the top of the page: "A Reformulation of HTML 4 in XML 1.0".
    >
    > That's what most people use it for: As a slightly updated version of HTML.
    >
    > Whether you actually do all the 'wonderful' things that you could do
    > because XHTML is also XML, is up to you.
    >
    > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.
    >
    >
    > Matthias


    XHTML and XML are two different things.

    XHTML = replacement of HTML, better structured, easier to code and read,
    less likely to explode :)

    XML = way of handling data regardless of browser, platform or physical
    hardware being used to read that data.
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2004
    #7
  8. Paul Furman

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "Els" <> wrote in message
    news:403cec83$0$41752$...
    >
    >
    > SpaceGirl wrote:
    >
    > > "Firas D." <> wrote in message
    > > news:c1iq5c$1ivd0l$-berlin.de...
    > >
    > >>Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML

    things,
    > >>>there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > >>>cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.
    > >>
    > >>I can tell you from experience that talking about XHTML is a serious
    > >>turn-off for girls, even the geeky sort :(

    > >
    > > depends on the girl honey ;)

    >
    > And on the way you talk about it of course.
    > Some guys can bore a girl even talking about clothes and
    > food ;-)
    >
    > --
    > Els


    LOL yes.
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2004
    #8
  9. Paul Furman

    Els Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:

    > "Firas D." <> wrote in message
    > news:c1iq5c$1ivd0l$-berlin.de...
    >
    >>Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    >>
    >>>So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    >>>there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    >>>cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.

    >>
    >>I can tell you from experience that talking about XHTML is a serious
    >>turn-off for girls, even the geeky sort :(

    >
    > depends on the girl honey ;)


    And on the way you talk about it of course.
    Some guys can bore a girl even talking about clothes and
    food ;-)

    --
    Els

    Sonhos vem. Sonhos vão. O resto é imperfeito.
    - Renato Russo -
    Els, Feb 25, 2004
    #9
  10. Paul Furman

    Firas D. Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    > "Firas D." <> wrote in message
    > news:c1iq5c$1ivd0l$-berlin.de...
    >
    >>Matthias Gutfeldt wrote:
    >>
    >>>So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    >>>there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    >>>cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.

    >>
    >>I can tell you from experience that talking about XHTML is a serious
    >>turn-off for girls, even the geeky sort :(

    >
    >
    > depends on the girl honey ;)
    >
    >

    Maybe :) I've only discussed it on IM, and got some of the 'you need to
    get out more' innuendo..

    (Someone should try this: "baby, I'm a strict XML parser, and you've got
    no unescaped ampersands!")
    Firas D., Feb 25, 2004
    #10
  11. "Matthias Gutfeldt" <> schreef in bericht
    news:c1iicv$1i8rkc$-berlin.de...
    >
    > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.
    >


    I use HTML 4.01 Strict, and i don't get any girls.
    Do you reckon i should start using XHTML?
    I mean i could use some girls you know, specially for the dirty work ;)

    Regards,
    Samuël
    Samuël van Laere, Feb 25, 2004
    #11
  12. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    >
    > XML provides a way of handling data at the client side that can be reused or
    > distributed...
    >
    > XHTML is a more "perfect" version of HTML. It forces all tags to be closed
    > with />, and is much less forgiving



    OK 'cause I keep hearing I should follow those rules if I want my pages
    to work in the future.


    >
    > Example; you can have an XHTML page that contains dynamic data (XML) that is
    > fed from a SQL database. You could then happily have a portable web aware
    > device (such as a PDA, cellphone, games console, whatever...) read that
    > page - it would read the data (XML) totally independently from any screen
    > "design", meaning that your content is readable anywhere, any how on any
    > platform. It's a way of totally separating data (content) from design. XML
    > is definatly the future. There are lots of web sites already doing this,
    > have another look around.



    So should I be learning XML client side rather than monkeying around
    connecting to MySQL with PHP server side? I don't want to waste my time
    with the old school stuff because I don't know that at all yet and it
    looks like it will be a considerable chore to learn, I might as well dig
    into what will be most useful in the future. I'm not too concerned if
    old browsers can't read it for a couple years. Or is this going to get
    too "difficult" for someone who isn't a hard core programmer? There are
    limits to how much energy I'm going to spend on this but I definitely
    want to get into database stuff on the web one way or another.
    Paul Furman, Feb 25, 2004
    #12
  13. Paul Furman wrote:

    > So should I be learning XML client side rather than monkeying around
    > connecting to MySQL with PHP server side?


    No.

    Server side is reliable and doesn't depend on browser support.
    Server side can take changes from users and give them to other users.

    Learning PHP is far more useful then XML IMO.

    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    David Dorward, Feb 25, 2004
    #13
  14. Paul Furman

    Cameron Guest

    SpaceGirl wrote:
    <snip>
    >
    > XML provides a way of handling data at the client side that can be reused or
    > distributed. XML is *not* for layout, purely for data. You then use XSL to
    > format that data (stylesheets basically).


    Just thought I would add that XML isn't just for the client side.

    ~Cameron
    Cameron, Feb 25, 2004
    #14
  15. Paul Furman

    Phil Roberts Guest

    With total disregard for any kind of safety measures Paul Furman
    <> leapt forth and uttered:

    > OK so I guess I've got the general idea. Sounds like nobody is
    > really using it yet. I can't find any example that looks special
    > or does obvious database cartwheels. It seems to have more to do
    > with custom database applications in web format than
    > presentation formatting. I'm not clear what XML does that an SQL
    > database doesn't do with server side scripting. Maybe that it
    > contains it's own scripting so the database can be queried
    > without stressing the server's machinery?
    >
    >


    XHTML is just HTML with the strict formatting rules of XML applied.
    It also loses all the "presentational" tags such as <font> which
    are deprecated in favour of CSS.

    The general point of XHTML is that well-formed XML is a lot easier
    to parse than the badly-formed cludge of XML that is HTML. So if
    you have a well-formed XHTML page then you can use an ordinary XML
    parse to extract data.

    As for the advantages of XML over a proper relational database,
    well, there are none. Because the two are totally different and
    intended for different uses.

    XML is basically just a standardised method of formatting data that
    can be easily read by a parser which can run in any system. Which
    makes it ideal for data syndication (such as the RSS feeds found in
    many blogs and news sites) and web services (such as those operated
    by Google and Amazon)

    --
    Phil Roberts | Dork Pretending To Be Hard | http://www.flatnet.net/
    Phil Roberts, Feb 25, 2004
    #15
  16. Phil Roberts wrote:

    > XHTML is just HTML with the strict formatting rules of XML applied.
    > It also loses all the "presentational" tags such as <font> which
    > are deprecated in favour of CSS.


    Not so.

    XHTML 1.0 and HTML 4.01 are exactly the same save for the differences
    between SGML And XML. XHTML 1.0 Transitional includes all the obsolete
    presentational markup of HTML 4.01 Transitional.

    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    David Dorward, Feb 25, 2004
    #16
  17. Paul Furman

    Paul Furman Guest

    David Dorward wrote:

    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >
    >
    >>So should I be learning XML client side rather than monkeying around
    >>connecting to MySQL with PHP server side?

    >
    >
    > No.
    >
    > Server side is reliable and doesn't depend on browser support.
    > Server side can take changes from users and give them to other users.
    >
    > Learning PHP is far more useful then XML IMO.



    I've been led to believe I would use both because I'm told to make my
    PHP code comply with XHTML. XML would be used for the database aspect,
    PHP for constructing other non-database related customization. Cameron
    says below that XML can be done server side but I don't know if this
    means needing a special interpreter on my web host or if that's a common
    way to use it.

    I'm also kind of getting the feeling that XML is more of a deluxe system
    for the big players who can afford professional programmer staff, and
    not real easy to learn or simple to implement.
    Paul Furman, Feb 25, 2004
    #17
  18. Paul Furman wrote:

    >> Server side is reliable and doesn't depend on browser support.
    >> Specialised can take changes from users and give them to other users.
    >>
    >> Learning PHP is far more useful then XML IMO.

    >
    >
    > I've been led to believe I would use both because I'm told to make my
    > PHP code comply with XHTML.


    You don't need to know XML to use XHTML. The list of differences between
    HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 is quite small.

    http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs

    > XML would be used for the database aspect,


    This wouldn't be very efficient. Parsing XML is a lot slower then a decent
    database. XML is a good format for exchanging data, but not really for
    storing it.

    > PHP for constructing other non-database related customisation. Cameron
    > says below that XML can be done server side but I don't know if this
    > means needing a special interpreter on my web host or if that's a common
    > way to use it.


    XML is just a data format. You can manipulate it like any other file. There
    are plenty of specialised XML handling tools though, and one of those would
    probably come in handy if you plan to do anything with it.

    > I'm also kind of getting the feeling that XML is more of a deluxe system
    > for the big players who can afford professional programmer staff, and
    > not real easy to learn or simple to implement.


    XML is not very complex, but it isn't all that useful unless you are
    planning to shunt data between systems.

    --
    David Dorward <http://dorward.me.uk/>
    David Dorward, Feb 25, 2004
    #18
  19. "Samuël van Laere" schrieb:
    >
    > "Matthias Gutfeldt" <> schreef in bericht
    > news:c1iicv$1i8rkc$-berlin.de...
    > >
    > > So unless your project actually requires all those wonderful XML things,
    > > there's no real reason to use XHTML apart from the fact that it's hip,
    > > cool, and gets you all the girls, of course.
    > >

    >
    > I use HTML 4.01 Strict, and i don't get any girls.
    > Do you reckon i should start using XHTML?


    I hear that using aftershave is even more effective, but XHTML is a good
    start.


    > I mean i could use some girls you know, specially for the dirty work ;)


    Like wiping up the spilled tag soup?


    Matthias
    Matthias Gutfeldt, Feb 25, 2004
    #19
  20. Paul Furman

    SpaceGirl Guest

    "David Dorward" <> wrote in message
    news:c1iu1h$e8q$1$...
    > Paul Furman wrote:
    >
    > >> Server side is reliable and doesn't depend on browser support.
    > >> Specialised can take changes from users and give them to other users.
    > >>
    > >> Learning PHP is far more useful then XML IMO.

    > >
    > >
    > > I've been led to believe I would use both because I'm told to make my
    > > PHP code comply with XHTML.

    >
    > You don't need to know XML to use XHTML. The list of differences between
    > HTML 4.01 and XHTML 1.0 is quite small.
    >
    > http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#diffs
    >
    > > XML would be used for the database aspect,

    >
    > This wouldn't be very efficient. Parsing XML is a lot slower then a decent
    > database. XML is a good format for exchanging data, but not really for
    > storing it.
    >
    > > PHP for constructing other non-database related customisation. Cameron
    > > says below that XML can be done server side but I don't know if this
    > > means needing a special interpreter on my web host or if that's a common
    > > way to use it.

    >
    > XML is just a data format. You can manipulate it like any other file.

    There
    > are plenty of specialised XML handling tools though, and one of those

    would
    > probably come in handy if you plan to do anything with it.
    >
    > > I'm also kind of getting the feeling that XML is more of a deluxe system
    > > for the big players who can afford professional programmer staff, and
    > > not real easy to learn or simple to implement.

    >
    > XML is not very complex, but it isn't all that useful unless you are
    > planning to shunt data between systems.



    That's very true; XML adds a *huge* amount of flexibility, because once your
    data in XML format any XML-compliant device should read it seamlessly. How
    that data is formatted is then controlled by XSL stylesheets which (can be)
    platform specific. Example; if you have a web site that contains news that's
    fed from a database, it would make sense to make sure that the data is
    contained inside XML rather than HTML because it would allow for your data
    to be read on cellphones, web pages, ticker bars on your faveorite tv news
    channel etc etc... It also makes the conversion into a format that can be
    fed into other databases pretty easy; The XML markup is pretty straight
    forwards.
    SpaceGirl, Feb 25, 2004
    #20
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