Won't validate...why not?

[kchayka]

While sitting in a puddle Liz scribbled in the mud:

What is RiscOS.

http://www.google.com/search?q=what is riscos?

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

No, exactly oppposite. If website has done well enough. Problem is those
clueless websites using HTML+CSS wrong way. Unfortunately, many big sites
only use CSS incorrectly.


There is harm in it. I constantly have problems with transitional and
other poor HTML.

Can you tell me what browser/OS you're using which has problems with 4.00 or
4.01 Transitional, please?
I haven't heard of this, except text-to-speech parsers.
I haven't found a problem with my site yet, but I haven't tried Firefox, and
don't have a speech-parser or Lynx, though I do run a selection of my pages
through the Lynx simulator website.
Mobile phones/pdas might be a problem: again I don't know anyone who has one
of them so can't try, but I wouldn't expect anyone to visit either of my
sites on one of these, as I explained earlier.
I check random pages on Opera's "small screen" option, but don't know whether
that's the same.

No it is not. HTML was just as hard on stone age when you had to think
about weather something works with this and that browser or not.

HUH?
I thought all you had to do was ignore the IE-specific and NS-specific
stuff, which doesn't validate anyway? (Or only use it if it didn't break in
other browsers)
The book I learned from indicated which mark-up was IE-only or NS only.
Not an issue, unless there's another the author didn't mention?

In fact CSS for layout is much easier than HTML. I have seen many CSS
based sites I couldn't think how to make them much better. I haven't seen
many HTML (table) layouted page which I could not make better (using
table layout).

I'm not saying it's not better, I couldn't possibly say, but it certainly
isn't easier.

That is very, very low percentage.
In the States.
But we don't all live in the States.

I wonder why you only use RiscOS? After all, you can get PC that runs
Opera just fine for few euros, and one that runs FF for maybe 20euros?

I have never said that I only use RiscOS.
I have a pc, which I mostly use for Photoshop.
(that's how I can check my sites on pc browsers)
I don't often go online from the pc, for mainly logistical reasons re
location and phone lines which can't currently be resolved.
But what *I* can and can't do isn't the point.

I also nag on the RiscOS newsgroups about lack of software: unfortunately
their digital imaging and browsers haven't kept up with the opposition.
Some RiscOS users would rather cut off their arms than move to Windows: the
second OS is often Linux, sometimes Mac.
Some people are now buying pcs which run a Virtual RiscOS system.

I think there is universities and universities. In my university, it is
now suggested that nobody should use IE...

Which makes much more sense to me.
But doesn't help my sister...

But, strict HTML with some hiding trick would look quite good on IE4.
(last time I used IE4 was 2 weeks ago, when I updated it to FF for my
godparents)

I can't say.
I know there are sites I can use with Fresco that she can't use with IE4.
Probably non-conforming sites.

Oh, when her network went over to Outlook from Eudora for emails she had to
go on a course at the Computing department - where she was taught to
top-post (I'd been trying to get her to stop top-posting for years, now all
she says is "Don't you think a Senior Lecturer in Computing knows more than
you do?"
:-(

It seems that there great differences in university systems. I was
disappointed when I was on seminar in another Finnish university, as it
didn't have wireless network to me access using my laptop... (In another
Finnish university, they do/consider to lend (free of charge) laptops to
people to use while they study)

At her uni, some students get laptops, but I don't know the criteria.
A colleague's daughter is doing pharmacy there, and requires a pc for
various aspects of her course (inter alia she has to do regular Powerpoint
presentations), but doesn't get any money towards a machine of her own: she
has free access to the University network on site, of course.

Slainte

Liz

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

While sitting in a puddle Liz scribbled in the mud:


What is RiscOS.

A British 'comptuter operating system' using a 'reduced instruction set' as
the name suggests.
Which BTW, successfully stopped Apple claiming in adverts that they were the
first RISC computer.

Slainte

Liz

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

A well-designed site using CSS for the presentational aspects will still
look fine when CSS is not present. Not the *same* of course, but fine. The
same is an unrealistic goal anyway -- no site will always look the same
when you take into account the myriad of different environments in which
it will be rendered. So "fine" is a worthy goal.

Depends how you define 'fine', I suppose.
Often it mixes up images and text so much that it's hard to know what's
supposed to 'go with' what.
But of course I don't know which ones are using CSS correctly, so maybe
we're not talking about the same thing.
At first I assumed that all the sites which looked crazy had been done in
FrontPage or similar, then I found out more about CSS: at first I though CSS
was just something like Flash you could ignore if you wanted. I changed my
default settings for background and foreground colours, so now I get to seen
when a site is done in CSS or if it's just badly done!

Slainte

Liz
--

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Can you tell me what browser/OS you're using which has problems with 4.00 or
4.01 Transitional, please?

Opera 7.6 preview 3.

Nothing that ordinary user would notice. Problems mostly related to
presentational coding. Of course, speaking of valid but otherwise poor
coding. There is reasons to use transitional or even custom DTD (but
maybe not doctype declaration)

I haven't heard of this, except text-to-speech parsers.

I know my browsers features, and I use about all of them.

Mobile phones/pdas might be a problem: again I don't know anyone who has one
of them so can't try,

I know few people. Haven't used any myself though.

I thought all you had to do was ignore the IE-specific and NS-specific
stuff, which doesn't validate anyway? (Or only use it if it didn't break in
other browsers)

Unless gecko finally supports all HTML4 transitional, there still is no
browser supporting HTML transitional.

The book I learned from indicated which mark-up was IE-only or NS only.
Not an issue, unless there's another the author didn't mention?

Well, you missed the point. I was speaking of time before books that
covered these issues, and that only told you about supported features of
HTML. There has not yet been any book covering CSS support on current
browsers, because sitution and spec keeps changing.

I'm not saying it's not better, I couldn't possibly say, but it certainly
isn't easier.

Then how come there is less well done table layouts than there is
welldone CSS layouts?

I have never said that I only use RiscOS.

I understand that. What I am wondering where is your argument.

the second OS is often Linux, sometimes Mac.

There is good browsers available for those platforms...

I can't say.
I know there are sites I can use with Fresco that she can't use with IE4.

Sure there is. But those are tag soup, so they wont serve as argument
against strict.

Probably non-conforming sites.

Yes. Confoming is nice word, as there is no defined meaning

Oh, when her network went over to Outlook from Eudora for emails she had to
go on a course at the Computing department - where she was taught to
top-post (I'd been trying to get her to stop top-posting for years, now all
she says is "Don't you think a Senior Lecturer in Computing knows more than
you do?"

Ask her what she thinks about expertice on internet in her university, if
the only browser allowed is IE4?

At her uni, some students get laptops, but I don't know the criteria.

There they give them for *all* freshmen.

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

While sitting in a puddle Liz scribbled in the mud:


What is RiscOS.

http://www.riscos.org/

"RISC OS is a windows-and-mouse based operating system that competes
with Microsoft Windows, Mac OS and Linux in an increasingly
computer-orientated world. The beauty of RISC OS is its sheer
productivity and intuitiveness where it outshines alternatives."

...but apparently only with ancient browsers. <g>

 

[David Dorward]

Often it mixes up images and text so much that it's hard to know what's
supposed to 'go with' what.

Not if it is well-designed.

I changed my default settings for background and foreground colours, so
now I get to seen when a site is done in CSS or if it's just badly done!

How does changing your default colour scheme tell you if a site uses CSS or
not? There are both CSS and (obsolete) HTML ways to change the colour
scheme.

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

in alt.html, Liz wrote:

[snipped discussion on html transitional versus css]

Then how come there is less well done table layouts than there is
welldone CSS layouts?

<very much guessing here>
Perhaps the people utilizing CSS are different people, in nature I mean?
More likely to get into things, technical things. More eager to do thing
in the best way possible. More able to addept to new things.
Whereas the table-layout people may be just keep doing what they have
always done, because they found that hard enough to learn in the first
place. Switching to CSS scares them?
< />

 

[Lauri Raittila]

<very much guessing here>
Perhaps the people utilizing CSS are different people, in nature I mean?
More likely to get into things, technical things. More eager to do thing
in the best way possible.

That could be right

More able to addept to new things.

This is no problem for idiots, look at all those pages done using
just flash...

 

[Lauri Raittila]

Not if it is well-designed.


How does changing your default colour scheme tell you if a site uses CSS or
not? There are both CSS and (obsolete) HTML ways to change the colour
scheme.

Set your colors using userstylesheet on Opera. It overrides obsolate HTML
way.

 

[Barbara de Zoete]

That could be right


This is no problem for idiots, look at all those pages done using
just flash...

:-D Yeah, forgot about that all together

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Actually, I wasn't strictly correct. Lots of sites don't validate
but seem to read perfectly well in Fresco.

...and any other modern browser. Validity is not necessary for a site
to render as the author expects.

As you suggest, the problem is generally with older sites written
in Front Page.

Nowadays, the problem is sites written totally in Flash. You're
obviously not advocating doing that.

Obviously not.

Even though at least one college round here is actually teaching
future 'web designers' to do just that :-(((

Eek. Send your children elsewhere.

Another problem is some commercial sites which use Java (not JS) to
complete orders. We have no support at all for Java because of the
cost of porting it to our platform.

Get your group together and port it! <g>

The same as it would with a Transitional with CSS, I'd imagine. I
don't actually know. I've just started using some CSS, but with
tables for presentation, and validating transitional.

I looked at the site in your sig, and while (the main page) it
validates, there is no CSS at all. So it doesn't matter what browser
is used. It would likely display as you expect using ten-year-old
browsers.

So everyone keeps saying. But what are the benefits again? Easier
to change - not so for us. There is a great little RiscOS prog
called WebChange, where you can easily make global changes to a
whole site in a very short time.

Smaller code in the HTML page? I haven't found this to be so,
usually between 100 and 250 bytes more for the markup per page, but
as I said, I'm still using tables.

If you remove all the tables, use a few well-placed <div>s and put the
CSS in an external stylesheet, you reduce each page by quite a lot.
Maybe half. The stylesheet is only downloaded once, then cached.

Compatible with more devices? Maybe so, I couldn't possibly say.

Certainly compatible with all modern browsers.

But since I have two sites, one for an artist and one for a
photographer, I wouldn't even expect my own mother to visit them
with a mobile phone or speech parser. My site looks essentially
similar in the four RiscOS browsers I have, IE5, 5.5, 6, Opera,
Natscape6, Safari and some other Mac browser I checked out at the
Science Centre. I have a much bigger problem with resolution: I'm
designing here on 800x600 (flexible tables, of course). I don't
like the way it 'spreads out' on my hi-res pc monitor, but it's the
same for every other site I've visited which doesn't use
fixed-width tables, so I just have to live with it.

Design width is another (well-discussed) topic, not relevant here. On
your PC, reduce the browser window width to something comfortable.

A few thousand UK users at least, I don't know about 'abroad'. I
have *never* argued for you or anyone else to dump modern
authoring.

I know you didn't.

I just didn't accept the sweeping statement "There is no
need to use Transitional this Millenium - and have demonstrated
where there is a case. Another one is my little subsection where I
have tutorials for a piece of RiscOS software, which only RO users
will be interested in.

But you didn't make your case! Non-CSS Transitional or Strict will
display the same with your Risc browsers (assuming nothing triggers
quirks modes...).

<snip>

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

Liz wrote:

How does changing your default colour scheme tell you if a site uses CSS or
not? There are both CSS and (obsolete) HTML ways to change the colour
scheme.

I chose a light green background colour and a dark rose foreground colour
that could I suppose be chosen by someone else, but fairly unlikely.

If the bgcolor and text are set in the HTML, I'll see what the author has
set in Fresco.
If not, I'm usually right in assuming the author has used CSS.

Liz

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

Liz wrote:

I looked at the site in your sig, and while (the main page) it
validates, there is no CSS at all.

Why does everyone assume I'm saying things I'm not saying?
Nowhere have I said that that my homepage has CSS.
I said I've "just started" to use CSS.
I started my site four years ago.
Only the most recent section in both sites has CSS, and the ones which are
currently in production. I have no intention of converting the older ones on
my own site: there are over 300 pages: by the time browsers won't support
them, any useful info in them will be dated, so I'll probably just delete them.

So it doesn't matter what browser is used. It would likely display as you
expect using ten-year-old browsers.

This is my point.
Since it looks essentially similar in all four RO browsers as it does in the
pc and Mac browsers I've looked in, I have a wider range of similarity than
do sites using only CSS for presentation.

If you remove all the tables, use a few well-placed <div>s and put the
CSS in an external stylesheet, you reduce each page by quite a lot.
Maybe half. The stylesheet is only downloaded once, then cached.

I understand the principle.
But to be totally correct, I have to add quite a lot of stuff I didn't have
before. I actually can't remember what (apart from <p> </p> which I didn't
previously put in), but I do remember when I converted my recent subsection,
I was gaining bytes rather than losing them on each page.

But you didn't make your case! Non-CSS Transitional or Strict will
display the same with your Risc browsers (assuming nothing triggers
quirks modes...).

Oh, right, I see what you mean.
But it would mean abandoning a few deprecated, but still widely supported,
elements which I choose to use, like v-align="top". Of course, I don't
*have* to use these, which I think is your point.

Slainte

Liz

--

 

[Duende]

While sitting in a puddle Beauregard T. Shagnasty scribbled in the mud:

"RISC OS is a windows-and-mouse based operating system

can i use my keyboard too?

 

[kchayka]

Often it mixes up images and text so much that it's hard to know what's
supposed to 'go with' what.

Some deezyners and/or their tools position elements all over the place
because they aren't very fluent in CSS or concerned with document
structure and semantic markup. Often they're attempting a pixel-perfect
layout.

Because they don't have the skills to do it correctly, they just hack
away until it comes out "right" in their own browsing environment. It
usually fails in a number of other browsing situations, though, not just
yours.

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

Opera 7.6 preview 3.

Nothing that ordinary user would notice.

Oh, right.
I thought you meant a browser which actually crashed when Transitional was used.
There are plenty of browsers which show up in my stats which I've never
heard of, so while it would have surprised me, I wouldn't have been totally
astonished.

Slainte

Liz

--

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

While sitting in a puddle Beauregard T. Shagnasty scribbled in the
mud:


can i use my keyboard too?

Apparently not. Windows and mouse only. <g>

Click-click--click-click-click---click-click... Maybe a keyboard
comes up in a window.

 

[Duende]

While sitting in a puddle Beauregard T. Shagnasty scribbled in the mud:

Apparently not. Windows and mouse only. <g>

Click-click--click-click-click---click-click... Maybe a keyboard
comes up in a window.

So it's an OS that you have to use Morse code with. Been a long time since I
used that.

 

[Liz]

In message <[email protected]>

Apparently not. Windows and mouse only. <g>

Click-click--click-click-click---click-click... Maybe a keyboard
comes up in a window.

Bizarrely that's what happens on the Mac system that's used in the internet
'bit' in the Science Centre.
What a pain!

Slainte

Liz