Writing solid code book

Discussion in 'Python' started by post400, Sep 3, 2003.

  1. post400

    post400 Guest

    Hi,

    there is another famous book 'Writing solid code' but does it apply to
    Python ? Or it's usable only by Microsoft C programmers ? The author
    seems to be an ex-Microsoft guy !

    Thanks ,
    post400
     
    post400, Sep 3, 2003
    #1
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  2. > there is another famous book 'Writing solid code' but does it apply to
    > Python ? Or it's usable only by Microsoft C programmers ? The author
    > seems to be an ex-Microsoft guy !


    Interesting question. This book probably makes a good indirect case for
    using Python rather than C. I found it useful back when I was I C
    programmer. Python makes many of the points in the book moot, and the last
    chapter on attitude applies universally. For example, assertions are much
    less useful in Python because the interpreter essentially asserts many
    properties of each statement. In Python one wants assertions only for
    conditions that the interpreter can't possibly deduce.

    BTW, back when I was a C programmer the book "Code Complete" would have been
    a complete answer to the question, "what do you do?" It's still relevant, I
    would guess.

    Edward
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    Edward K. Ream email:
    Leo: Literate Editor with Outlines
    Leo: http://webpages.charter.net/edreamleo/front.html
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    Edward K. Ream, Sep 3, 2003
    #2
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  3. In article <>, post400 wrote:

    > there is another famous book 'Writing solid code' but does it apply to
    > Python ? Or it's usable only by Microsoft C programmers ? The author
    > seems to be an ex-Microsoft guy !


    It mainly deals with C-specific issues.

    http://tinyurl.com/m3ta

    However, the Code Complete book by McConnel is quite general.

    Dave Cook
     
    David M. Cook, Sep 3, 2003
    #3
  4. post400

    Alan Gauld Guest

    On 3 Sep 2003 04:39:02 -0700, (post400)
    wrote:
    > there is another famous book 'Writing solid code' but does it apply to
    > Python ? Or it's usable only by Microsoft C programmers ? The author
    > seems to be an ex-Microsoft guy !


    Forget this one, it wasn't as good as Code Complete when it came
    out and it has aged less well. Its not even of great value to C
    programmers nowadays, it spends a lot of time dealing with the
    inadequacies of the compilers and other tools around at the time!

    Better tools mean much of it has lost its urgency.

    Alan G.
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
     
    Alan Gauld, Sep 3, 2003
    #4
  5. post400

    Jules Dubois Guest

    On 03 Sep 2003 13:58:00 +0100, John J. Lee wrote:

    > The Python Cookbook is the first book I'd have on my list if I were
    > learning Python now (O'Reilly, eds. Martelli & Ascher).


    That's the only Python book you think worth having? Or buying?

    My "Software Engineering" class votes again tomorrow on the language we use
    for our group project. Tuesday's vote was Java (8 votes), Python (5), C++
    (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.
     
    Jules Dubois, Sep 4, 2003
    #5
  6. post400

    Roy Smith Guest

    Jules Dubois <> wrote:
    > My "Software Engineering" class votes again tomorrow on the language we use
    > for our group project. Tuesday's vote was Java (8 votes), Python (5), C++
    > (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    > get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.


    How many votes does a language need to get to be elected Governor of
    California?
     
    Roy Smith, Sep 4, 2003
    #6
  7. Roy Smith <> writes:

    > How many votes does a language need to get to be elected Governor of
    > California?


    It must fight against Schwarzenegger ;-)

    --
    Lawrence "Rhymes" Oluyede
    http://loluyede.blogspot.com
     
    Lawrence Oluyede, Sep 4, 2003
    #7
  8. post400

    Alan Gauld Guest

    On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:00:45 -0600, Jules Dubois
    <> wrote:

    > (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    > get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.


    If you picked Jython you could all be happy! :)

    Alan G
    Author of the Learn to Program website
    http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
     
    Alan Gauld, Sep 4, 2003
    #8
  9. Roy Smith wrote:

    > Jules Dubois <> wrote:
    >> My "Software Engineering" class votes again tomorrow on the language we
    >> use
    >> for our group project. Tuesday's vote was Java (8 votes), Python (5),
    >> C++
    >> (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python.
    >> I get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.

    >
    > How many votes does a language need to get to be elected Governor of
    > California?


    Given that they vote in a sensible way (runoff between the top two
    candidates, rather than "first past the post") you can't directly
    compare the two elections. (You can get the same results as with a
    preliminary vote + runoff by such methods as STV and Condorcet --
    the whole issue was discussed in depth last spring on this group
    regarding the ternary operator vote -- but that's an issue only if
    arranging for voting twice is costly or inconvenient).


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 4, 2003
    #9
  10. On Thu, 04 Sep 2003 00:06:00 -0400
    Roy Smith <> wrote:

    > How many votes does a language need to get to be elected Governor of
    > California?


    $ 10**7 ?

    /Mikael Olofsson
    Universitetslektor (Associate professor)
    Linköpings universitet

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
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    WWW: http://www.dtr.isy.liu.se/en/staff/mikael
    Phone: +46 - (0)13 - 28 1343
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    Mikael Olofsson, Sep 4, 2003
    #10
  11. safari (was Re: Writing solid code book)

    Jules Dubois wrote:

    > On 03 Sep 2003 13:58:00 +0100, John J. Lee wrote:
    >
    >> The Python Cookbook is the first book I'd have on my list if I were
    >> learning Python now (O'Reilly, eds. Martelli & Ascher).

    >
    > That's the only Python book you think worth having? Or buying?


    Speaking as both the co-editor of the Cookbook and the author of the
    Nutshell, if I had to choose ONE Python book "worth having or buying"
    I think I'd go for the Nutshell. Hard decision, though.

    Fortunately you don't have to choose "sight unseen". You can join
    O'Reilly's "Safari" online-books service: it's for-pay, but you DO
    get a couple of weeks free access, giving you time to examine all
    of the 15 Python books they have available for online reading -- on
    the basis of how you like what you see, you may then decide to
    purchase any one of them -- or even, if you don't like any of them
    well enough, to purchase none of them and go with the other ones
    you can access in entirely free ways off the net.

    In the past, I made my choices about what books to purchase mostly
    by browsing books at a bookstore. Half an hour per book might
    mean a full day's worth of browsing to choose among 15 of them,
    and yet not give me a solid enough basis for choosing. Now I can
    spend 2 or 3 hours examining each book's contents in a more
    convenient setting, and in a weekend plus a couple evenings make
    my choice on a much more solid basis. Even ignoring safari's many
    other advantages, just as a book-choosing device it's superb!-)


    Alex
     
    Alex Martelli, Sep 4, 2003
    #11
  12. In article <>,
    Alan Gauld <> wrote:
    >On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:00:45 -0600, Jules Dubois
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    >> get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.

    >
    >If you picked Jython you could all be happy! :)

    .
    .
    .
    I'm not sure how seriously others take this sug-
    gestion. I think it's worth full consideration.
    Jython is a remarkable achievement, and often
    addresses requirements more fully than either
    Python or Java alone.
    --

    Cameron Laird <>
    Business: http://www.Phaseit.net
    Personal: http://phaseit.net/claird/home.html
     
    Cameron Laird, Sep 4, 2003
    #12
  13. post400

    post400 Guest

    (Alan Gauld) wrote in message news:<>...
    > On 3 Sep 2003 04:39:02 -0700, (post400)
    > wrote:
    > > there is another famous book 'Writing solid code' but does it apply to
    > > Python ? Or it's usable only by Microsoft C programmers ? The author
    > > seems to be an ex-Microsoft guy !

    >
    > Forget this one, it wasn't as good as Code Complete when it came
    > out and it has aged less well. Its not even of great value to C
    > programmers nowadays, it spends a lot of time dealing with the
    > inadequacies of the compilers and other tools around at the time!
    >
    > Better tools mean much of it has lost its urgency.


    Actually I put these questions about books because there's an awful
    lot of them out there in the bookshops and libraries and no time to
    read them all.So maybe you (experienced python guys ) could make some
    suggestions from time to time about the must-read books , not
    necessarily on python but also on stuff about design , project
    management , OOP , etc. be it new stuff or old stuff.Apparently the
    python people are already experienced in some other languages and they
    choose it as a language because is so much better.Of course there are
    programmers who have never heard of python and I'm talking about
    "real" hot java and enterprise stuff programmers.But I really wonder
    how a non-programmer could get into python as a first programming
    language since there's not much publicity and not many people around
    to lure you to it.

    Bye,
    post400

    >
    > Alan G.
    > Author of the Learn to Program website
    > http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld
     
    post400, Sep 4, 2003
    #13
  14. post400

    Bob Gailer Guest

    At 10:00 PM 9/3/2003 -0600, you wrote:
    >[snip]
    >My "Software Engineering" class votes again tomorrow on the language we use
    >for our group project. Tuesday's vote was Java (8 votes), Python (5), C++
    >(3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    >get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.


    Does your class want to learn Software Engineering or does it want to learn
    a language. If the focus is on learning Software Engineering and the
    learning of a language is to support that, the less effort you have to put
    into learning (and using) the language the more time and energy you'll have
    to learn and apply engineering concepts.

    One of the first "productivity languages" was APL. One could solve problems
    in a fraction of the time it took in FORTRAN etc. In the early 1970s a
    college class was given a term project - write a program to solve something
    related to the course subject. Some students wrote the APL solution and
    turned it in the following day. The prof was pissed that they had done it
    so easily, and forbade the use of APL for the assignment!

    So beware of choosing Python. It might make the class too easy.

    Bob Gailer

    303 442 2625


    ---
    Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
    Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
    Version: 6.0.506 / Virus Database: 303 - Release Date: 8/1/2003
     
    Bob Gailer, Sep 4, 2003
    #14
  15. On Wed, 3 Sep 2003 22:00:45 -0600, Jules Dubois <>
    wrote:

    >On 03 Sep 2003 13:58:00 +0100, John J. Lee wrote:
    >
    >> The Python Cookbook is the first book I'd have on my list if I were
    >> learning Python now (O'Reilly, eds. Martelli & Ascher).

    >


    I think Learning Python is the best starter book for Python newbies.
     
    Chris Stromberger, Sep 4, 2003
    #15
  16. post400

    post400 Guest

    Re: safari (was Re: Writing solid code book)

    Alex Martelli <> wrote in message news:<elC5b.11632$>...
    > Jules Dubois wrote:
    >
    > > On 03 Sep 2003 13:58:00 +0100, John J. Lee wrote:
    > >
    > >> The Python Cookbook is the first book I'd have on my list if I were
    > >> learning Python now (O'Reilly, eds. Martelli & Ascher).

    > >
    > > That's the only Python book you think worth having? Or buying?

    >
    > Speaking as both the co-editor of the Cookbook and the author of the
    > Nutshell, if I had to choose ONE Python book "worth having or buying"
    > I think I'd go for the Nutshell. Hard decision, though.
    >
    > Fortunately you don't have to choose "sight unseen". You can join
    > O'Reilly's "Safari" online-books service: it's for-pay, but you DO
    > get a couple of weeks free access, giving you time to examine all
    > of the 15 Python books they have available for online reading -- on
    > the basis of how you like what you see, you may then decide to
    > purchase any one of them -- or even, if you don't like any of them
    > well enough, to purchase none of them and go with the other ones
    > you can access in entirely free ways off the net.
    >
    > In the past, I made my choices about what books to purchase mostly
    > by browsing books at a bookstore. Half an hour per book might
    > mean a full day's worth of browsing to choose among 15 of them,
    > and yet not give me a solid enough basis for choosing. Now I can
    > spend 2 or 3 hours examining each book's contents in a more
    > convenient setting, and in a weekend plus a couple evenings make
    > my choice on a much more solid basis. Even ignoring safari's many
    > other advantages, just as a book-choosing device it's superb!-)
    >
    >
    > Alex


    Hi,

    yes Safari seems ok , you get a few days for free to browse but it's
    not totally free.I think the electronic version should be free.Some
    people offer their books for free , Bruce Eckel for example and his
    Thinking in Java which seems to be a good book.Maybe more writers
    should do the same !

    bye,
    post400
     
    post400, Sep 4, 2003
    #16
  17. Re: safari

    Alex Martelli <> wrote in message news:<elC5b.11632$>...
    > Even ignoring safari's many other advantages


    Safari is definitely a useful service (I am a subscriber) but
    1. its range of titles is quite limited (only best-sellers)
    2. the time lag between release as hardcopy vs. on Safari can be really long

    -- O.L.
     
    Olivier Lefevre, Sep 4, 2003
    #17
  18. Re: safari (was Re: Writing solid code book)

    And let us not forget
    3. poor customer service (you have to try real hard to reach someone)

    -- O.L.
     
    Olivier Lefevre, Sep 4, 2003
    #18
  19. post400

    John J. Lee Guest

    Jules Dubois <> writes:

    > On 03 Sep 2003 13:58:00 +0100, John J. Lee wrote:
    >
    > > The Python Cookbook is the first book I'd have on my list if I were
    > > learning Python now (O'Reilly, eds. Martelli & Ascher).

    >
    > That's the only Python book you think worth having? Or buying?


    As a general Python book, yes (having or buying). The standard
    library docs are good enough that I've never had a need for anything
    else. The Cookbook is good for getting a sense of good Pythonic
    style.

    People have said good things about some of the Python reference books,
    though. In the past -- and quite possibly now -- the books by Beazley
    and Lundh were two that were often recommended, and the more recent
    O'Reilly Nutshell has also been praised.


    > My "Software Engineering" class votes again tomorrow on the language we use
    > for our group project. Tuesday's vote was Java (8 votes), Python (5), C++
    > (3), and Smalltalk (1); Thursday's vote will be between Java and Python. I
    > get the opportunity to learn one or the other in a week.


    Why not ignore the result and dictate the language choice yourself?
    (benevolently, of course ;-)


    John
     
    John J. Lee, Sep 4, 2003
    #19
  20. Re: safari


    > Alex Martelli <> wrote in message

    news:<elC5b.11632$>...
    > > Even ignoring safari's many other advantages

    >
    > Safari is definitely a useful service (I am a subscriber) but
    > 1. its range of titles is quite limited (only best-sellers)


    It is *very* limited; though I think all or O'Reilly's books are in it (and
    MicrosoftPress and SAMS) there is little more; they advertise Addison
    Wesley, but there is only a fraction of their books.

    > 2. the time lag between release as hardcopy vs. on Safari can be really

    long

    3. It *is* expensive in the long run, except you have a *very* broad
    interest in multiple aspects of computer science.


    Kindly
    Michael P
    (also a subscriber)
     
    Michael Peuser, Sep 5, 2003
    #20
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