Academic Advice (Professionals only Please)

[Andrew Thompson]

The purpose of the assign.

What, this one?

Just addition of few comments in the code would have avoided the
situation that I am in.
Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of it.

Are you gonna' stick to the statement that
<http://www.yorku.ca/yorkweb/index.htm>
failed to provide you with information on
academic misconduct and plagiarism?

It is usually prominently mentioned in the
induction/orientation materials supplied to
1st year students.

Now, I'll take you back to something I asked
previously..

What forum? I can see no evidence of the thread
you refer to in the posts you have made here..
<http://www.google.com/groups?q=robocop+train&group=comp.lang.java.programmer>

You failed to answer that, so I searched further..
<http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jsp?forum=54&thread=532604&start=135&range=15&hilite=false&q=>

Ahh, yes. It seems Peter Cribb is the gent
with the objection to people posting code.

So, straight up. Did you post *here* in the hope
that you could get some 'ammunition' for your
hearing, and guessing that if it came to no good,
none the harm?

It would seem in that case, that you have not learned
the fundamental lesson at the heart of the issue.

"Accurate information properly referenced and credited."
It's not rocket science.

If you choose to go behind the Prof's back in
the wild of Usenet to 'fight' the well deserved
lumps you are getting, it indicates you are still
willing to tell whoever asks, whatever they want to
hear, in order to get what you want.

In that case I feel the 5% punishment *is* unfair..
to the person who *should* be occupying the spot
vacated when you are expelled.

<dripping with sarcasm>
Was that what you wanted to hear?
Shall I drop the URL to the prof?
</dripping with sarcasm>

 

[Andrew Thompson]

Be defiant.

Post over 250 lines of irrelevent quotes.
[ Properly attributed, of course. We
don't want to be *that* defiant.. ;-) ]

 

[Robocop]

In other words the code from the forum was superior to your own.

Not only did it work, but it was better written and more efficient.

If you'd simply studied the forum code, realised your mistake and
corrected your own work, perhaps then I might have some sympathy
for you. Your teacher is less interested in what your code does,
more *how* it does it - the *how* is what he/she is actually trying
to teach you. Not asking for the source code does not mean you're
free to copy. If you are struggling to design your own handglider,
and someone shows you the plans to a jet aircraft, you cannot simply
claim the jet plane as your own merely because it also happens to be
a winged flying machine. ;-)

What do you mean by *HOW*?
Had I corrected my own work then I wouldn't be needing anyone's
sympathy.

*HOW* it does is LEAST or of NO IMPORTANCE HERE since the OUTPUT is
the ONLY concern over here.

you give an INPUT and you get an OUTPUT, you verfiy the OUTPUT and give the MARK. This is done automatically by a testdriver.

matter if the code getting CHECKED was SUPERIOR or INFERIOR. BOTH OF
THEM DO THE SAME WORK THAT THEY SHOULD AND THAT TOO PRECISELY.

comparison of jet plane and winged flying machine has no relation

with this topic.

THIS work isn't going to be PUBLISHED anywhere, I never WROTE my name
in the classes that I submitted, so I am not claiming anything over
here.

I admit the MISTAKE but the 5% reduction is WAY TOO MUCH for a CASE of
this MAGNITUDE. Just for taking 4 LINES of code. That too TRIVIAL.

 

[Hamilcar Barca]

In the professional world, what you did would be perfectly acceptable
[...]

In working for an employer, this depends on the employer's policy. In
every case, what's acceptable depends upon copyright and license.

One guideline I've seen posted about academic honesty in computer
science courses: students may talk about the problems, may even point
out where mistakes are in other students' code. But students may not
actually write or modify other students' code.

I've seen everything from

* students may not use any outside reference whatsoever;

* students may discuss anything but no student may view another's code;

* students may use anything they can find, as long as copyright and
license are respected and the original author is credited properly.

 

[Hamilcar Barca]

I think the professor himself knows that its NOT A BIG DEAL even then
instead of giving a verbal warning (since its my FIRST TIME and the
assign.

When I took a master's level "Advanced Operating Systems" course, the
professor made it clear that the use of anyone else's code would result in
failure for the assignment (15% of the course grade). Using C-Shell code
would result in failure from the course.

 

[Larry Coon]

Are you gonna' stick to the statement that
<http://www.yorku.ca/yorkweb/index.htm>
failed to provide you with information on
academic misconduct and plagiarism?

You mean like this?

<http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~advising/policy.htm#honesty>

Or this?

It is usually prominently mentioned in the
induction/orientation materials supplied to
1st year students.

Where I teach, it also must be included as part of the
syllabus in every course.

It would seem in that case, that you have not learned
the fundamental lesson at the heart of the issue.

"Accurate information properly referenced and credited."
It's not rocket science.

It may not have even been sufficient had he properly
credited it. If the assignment was to write the code,
then that doesn't mean to submit others' code, even if
it WAS properly credited (but this is more a matter of
individual school/professor policy). The better thing
for the student to have done in a case such as this
is make the necessary changes in HIS code, not cut &
paste someone else's code, credited or not.

If you choose to go behind the Prof's back in
the wild of Usenet to 'fight' the well deserved
lumps you are getting, it indicates you are still
willing to tell whoever asks, whatever they want to
hear, in order to get what you want.

In that case I feel the 5% punishment *is* unfair..
to the person who *should* be occupying the spot
vacated when you are expelled.

I've done everything from a verbal warning (with
a really minor infraction) to a 0 on an assignment to
an F in a course, but it takes a lot to expel a student.

TO ROBOCOP: You cheated, intentional or otherwise. I
suggest you learn from the experience.

Larry Coon
University of California

 

[Mike Schilling]

I admit the MISTAKE but the 5% reduction is WAY TOO MUCH for a CASE of
this MAGNITUDE. Just for taking 4 LINES of code. That too TRIVIAL.

If you handed in homework capitalized this annoyingly, I'd give you a 0.

 

[Chris Smith]

Colleges in America (and probably elsewhere) are running into a very
serious problem: they are trying to teach, but their students are trying
to become marketable. If a college fails to teach, and their students
nevertheless are offered degrees, then the college reputation is
tarnished... and even more, the value of a college education in general
is tarnished. They then have less to offer, and are being cheated.
This problem is even more pronounced in many Computer Science programs,
where (in my experience) more students sometimes cheat than proceed
honestly through the program.

Contrary to the beliefs of students, universities know that this is
happening. It's hard not to know, when a junior-level compiler theory
professor has problems with students who can't write simple algorithms
or deal with rudimentary data structures. Students are being given the
benefit of the doubt, though, because there's no direct proof that the
student cheated on any specific occasion. The result is somewhat
extreme measures being taken by universities to protect themselves
against this kind of exploitation by their students, on the few
occasions when they are completely and unquestionably justified in
taking that action. Robocop's situation is such a case, and he is
apparently getting off very easy.

Frankly, I'm completely in favor of academic institutions doing whatever
they can to prevent cheating on coursework. After all, that's the
environment in which the student chose to work when they enrolled in a
university. If they don't like it, they can study at home, AND they can
deal with the consequences when others challenge the legitimacy of their
education and find other ways to prove themselves. Someone who insists
that a university should legitimize their claims to skill in software
development -- and then objects when that university tries to protect
the legitimacy of their courses -- is either so dull as to misunderstand
the point of the whole process or so malicious as to intentionally harm
others around them in order to gain a selfish benefit.

--
www.designacourse.com
The Easiest Way to Train Anyone... Anywhere.

Chris Smith - Lead Software Developer/Technical Trainer
MindIQ Corporation

 

[Brian]

Had I corrected my own work then I wouldn't be needing anyone's
sympathy.

I'm not sure why you are looking for sympathy really. But yes,
your statement above is exactly true.

What I read from your attitude is:
- Plagiarism is a gray line.
- Cheating is a gray line.
- You did 90% of the work and only used a fair method to finish.
- It's only technically plagiarism (and it is!) but nothing serious.
- Academic Dishonesty is meant for more serious stuff (your
teacher should go storm a frat house for instance)

I have sympathy for you. It sounds like you're aggressively
academic. No one counts points like that except for accountants
and grade goalies.

Learn and live. What more can be said? You copied code that
was not your own. GUILTY. Technically. It was a few lines of
modified code. Conservative rule. Conservative teacher. Be
more conservative in the future.

You should let it go. It's a slap on the wrist. (Eh, I should
also warn you that teachers are vindictive. Programming assignments
can be nitpicked to death. Your professor actively pursues
plagiarism... he probably has a magnitude greater experience
with student appeals than you. Really, I'd be grateful for
the lesson. Ease up on the caffeine and pizza and move on!)

 

[FISH]

*HOW* it does is LEAST or of NO IMPORTANCE HERE since the OUTPUT is
the ONLY concern over here.

Aha - so why are you being asked to write the code then? Presumably
your tutor has his own working copy of the solution for testing
purposes. Why didn't you simply ask him for his copy, then hand it
in? After all, as you claim, he isn't bothered about how the code
was implemented, or indeed who wrote it, merely that it works.


[snipped...]

I admit the MISTAKE but the 5% reduction is WAY TOO MUCH for a CASE of
this MAGNITUDE. Just for taking 4 LINES of code. That too TRIVIAL.

As I understood your original posting you didn't hand in a source
file with four lines of code written by another author - you handed
in a file which was an entirely reworked implementation by another
author. Is that not the case?

Suppose a fellow student had copied your source files and handed in
the same classes as you... does he merit the same mark as youself?
What about if he'd *almost* got his own version to work, but not quite,
so decided to just copy your working version instead - is that fair?

Bottom line: the work you submitted was not entirely your own. It
doesn't matter if the output was the same as your own, it still wasn't
your work! You said yourself in the original posting that the reason
you submitted the forum code rather than ammending your own work was
because the forum code was better written --- so obviously implement-
ation *must* have been a factor.


-FISH- ><>

 

[Robocop]

Colleges in America (and probably elsewhere) are running into a very
serious problem: they are trying to teach, but their students are trying
to become marketable. If a college fails to teach, and their students
nevertheless are offered degrees, then the college reputation is
tarnished... and even more, the value of a college education in general
is tarnished. They then have less to offer, and are being cheated.
This problem is even more pronounced in many Computer Science programs,
where (in my experience) more students sometimes cheat than proceed
honestly through the program.

Statement 2 does not imply that students must work, study and learn in
isolation. The Department encourages students to work, study and learn
together, and to use the work of others as found in books, journal
articles, electronic news, private conversations, etc.. In fact, most
pieces of work are enhanced when relevant outside material is
introduced. Thus faculty expect to see quotes, references and
citations to the work of others. This shows the student is seeking out
knowledge, integrating it with their own work, and perhaps more
significantly, reducing some of the drudgery in producing a piece of
work.
___________________________________________________

I just want 5% reduced to something ELSE.

 

[Larry Coon]

You should let it go. It's a slap on the wrist. (Eh, I should
also warn you that teachers are vindictive.

And they also talk to each other. There were times
I strongly suspected a student was cheating, but I
wasn't able to catch him red-handed. But all of his
other professors, current and future, were informed
and knew to watch out for it.

The situation is as Chris described. Students cheat
in lower-level classes, and as a result never
develop the necessary prerequisite skills for the
advanced classes. By the time they get to the
advanced classes, the only way they CAN get through
the class is to continue cheating.


Larry Coon
University of California

 

[Sudsy]

Larry Coon wrote:

The situation is as Chris described. Students cheat
in lower-level classes, and as a result never
develop the necessary prerequisite skills for the
advanced classes. By the time they get to the
advanced classes, the only way they CAN get through
the class is to continue cheating.

Larry Coon
University of California

I was stunned to read some of the posts on this thread claiming
that "it's no big deal" or "everyone does it". The fact remains
that the student included code in his assignment which he did not
write, period. He deserves to be punished. And if you read the
thread Andrew posted then you'll likely agree that he's getting
off easy!
Ask yourself some questions: do you want this person to graduate
and perhaps one day find yourself working with him? If he sees
no harm, no foul in usurping the code of others and claiming it
as his own, is your code safe? Sounds outrageous, right?
It's only a logical extension from the position he's trying to
defend right now. Do you want him to get the bonus (using your
code) while you get the shaft?
Is ethical behaviour going the way of the dodo?

 

[Rene]

Larry Coon wrote:


I was stunned to read some of the posts on this thread claiming
that "it's no big deal" or "everyone does it". The fact remains
that the student included code in his assignment which he did not
write, period. He deserves to be punished. And if you read the
thread Andrew posted then you'll likely agree that he's getting
off easy!

Prior to reading that other thread I gave the OP the benefit of doubt but
afterwards I can only add that reading it was quite enlightening (and funny
too, thanks to some of the messages there)

Oh and it also clearly shows that the OP should have better used his time
to learn the basics and take the clues that were abundantly handed to him
though he seems not to have noticed. The thread also shows that the OP has
quite a lack of understanding of java and basic oop which in itself is
nothing bad but that makes the exchange of his own class not a "trivial"
thing but a necessity at that time to actually hand in a functional
solution.

The fix may have been trivial but not for an unexperienced person (which
was shown since the OP couldn't fix it even when given hints of where to
look) and the handed in copied class is of quite a different quality level
as well.

I do now however think the punishment is appropriate. It was the second
assignment and he seems to be a freshman, so in my book he's entitled to a
second chance.

CU

René

 

[J.F. Cornwall]

Andrew Thompson wrote:




You mean like this?

<http://www.cs.yorku.ca/~advising/policy.htm#honesty>

Or this?

<http://www.cs.yorku.ca/admin/coscOnAcadHonesty.html>

Somebody should really have run a spell-check on that page...

JFC

(snip)

 

[marcus]

you cheated
you plagiarized
you did not *prove* you understand the work
further . . .
you whine, you snivel, you make excuses, you emphatically demonstrate
your ignorance, you seek unqualified opinions to support your untenable
position, you are in denial about your failings

learn to paint . . .

 

[Scott Ellsworth]

Dear Folks:

After spending hours I completed the entire assgn. and I had a little
bug in one of the class given below, so I decided to go to a forum. [...]
Now I am charged with >>>"ACADEMIC DISHONESTY"<<< I don't know what to
do now. I thinks its just laughable to be charged for such simple
thing; also me being a first year student, I don't think its fair.

You hopefully knew going in that going to a forum was risky, just like
asking for a copy of someone else's program source would have been
risky. This is the same problem that all academics face when they have
a chance to find information that will call their efforts into doubt.
(For example, if you are running a drug trial and you have a chance to
unblind the results early, you do not want to even if it would help
other research and would not make a difference in your current work, as
objective onlookers have no way of knowing that.)

What you should have done before, and now need to do under a cloud of
suspicion, is to find a way to prove your innocence. Since you did make
what you claim was a copy and paste error, you are going to have a hard
time.

Under most circumstances, the burden of proof lies with the prosecution,
but if they have clear evidence that you went to a public forum for help
with homework, then it is up to you to prove that you did not actually
cheat.

Frankly, I would see if the professor would accept a "no contest"
penalty, given how hard it will be to prove that you mistake was
incompetence rather than malice. Essentially, you state that you will
not contest the 5% hit to your grade in return for not admitting guilt.
You lose the points, but you have not been branded dishonest.

If you do go before a group, you might want to lose the defensive
attitude. Point out that you know the risks of going to a public forum
with homework, but thought that you could keep the help from the public
separate from your own work. Admit any mistakes you made, such as copy
and paste errors, but hold forth that the intent was not dishonest. I
suspect you will still lose the points, given that you _did_ mix outside
code and your own.

Scott

 

[Scott Ellsworth]

The academic world works a lot differently than the professional world.

In the professional world, what you did would be perfectly acceptable and
indeed, even preferable: you found a way to answer the problem posed, and
probably saved a good amount of time rather than trying to figure it out for
yourself.

If, however, he had grabbed some GPL source to solve his problem, and
put it in his company's proprietary software, it would have been far
from ok. What Robocop did seems similar in terms of misunderstanding
the rules.

Scott

 

[Robocop]

you did not *prove* you understand the work

*prove*? "understand" ?

Did you read the *Subject* before giving a reply?

 

[Hamilcar Barca]

Did you read the *Subject* before giving a reply?

You used someone else's work and you've gotten into trouble. You were
looking for sympathy and/or an excuse. However, you're not getting much
if any of either.

Now, it's time for you to move along and find another newsgroup for your
personal problem.