T
Thufir Hawat
What about Swing on the Mac, though?
-Thufir
What about Swing on the Mac, though?
-Thufir
A
Arne Vajhøj
Swing is possible the easiest possible GUI framework to
port to a new OS.
All you need is something on the platform to draw a bitmap
and then the Swing classes does all the work themselves.
Arne
PS: Well - most Mac OS X users will say "puh badr - it does
not look as it should", but ...
B
BGB / cr88192
Martin Gregorie said:
ermm, because this would probably be even more awkward in general than using
JNI (because then one has to deal with shoving messages into a socket,
getting messages from the socket, and doing something with them on each
end).
the ideal would be to be able to have near transparent interfacing, where
one doesn't have to go so far as to even write out a list of functions to
marshall over, but the system itself is smart enough to figure out how to
make it all work.
with JNI, the main issue is that:
one has to find a common representation for the data on both sides of the
interface (this generally means swizzling pointers as long and most raw data
as byte arrays and similar);
write a class which lists the native methods;
put class in magic list of things to be run through 'javah';
edit resultant header into a C source file (slight manual editing,
find/replace also helps here, but most annoyingly is the lack of variable
names in the declarations, ...);
write in the logic to do something useful for each function;
as with most matters of boilerplate, the boilerplate in itself is not all
that difficult to write, but it doesn't scale well:
10s of methods is ok;
100s is painful;
1000s is unmanagable.
a partial way to sidestep this issue is to use a "generic apply" call, where
then it is more a matter of naming the function and supplying arguments.
for example:
public class CApply
{
public static native Object apply(String name, Object... args);
....
}
i=CApply.apply("FOO_MyFunc", 3, 4);
and this being if one has C-side reflection to figure out the argument types
(otherwise a signature or similar would be needed), say:
i=CApply.applyi("FOO_MyFunc", "(ii)i", 3, 4);
but, then we have this sort of stuff spread all over the place, and
inevitably one needs to wrap it if one wants a nicer interface, leaving one
still not that much better off than just using JNI.
complex data types pose additional problems.
say:
i=CApply.getField(obj, "szbuf");
(this also requiring a reflection mechanism, as otherwise there is know way
to know, for example, what type of object 'obj' is, or what would be the
type or offset of 'szbuf').
alternatively, dynamic typing or delayed binding could be used here, and
could offer a cleaner solution (but, Java is not JS).
one "can" do something like JNA does (within the language), but this still
requires using an interface (meaning one still has to list each and every
possible function in the interface).
another possibility, would be to use a tool to write out Java source or
classes to represent the marshalled interface, but givin the way such a
mechanism would work, would still require some way to identify which
functions to marshall (not free either), and would be limited in terms of
the max number of functions per class (maybe a few thousand?...).
admittedly, sad as it is, the above option (using API calls), is still a
workable option for marshalling a lot of code (one could just use this as a
"good enough" mechanism, despite how ugly it would be).
CApply.apply("glBegin", CApply.getVar("GL_POLYGON"));
CApply.apply("glVertex3f", 1, 0, 0);
CApply.apply("glVertex3f", 1, 1, 0);
CApply.apply("glVertex3f", 0, 1, 0);
....
CApply.apply("glEnd");
nevermind that all the value boxing would probably turn bad (WRT
performance) quickly...
or such...
C
ClassCastException
And your post still does not change *my* point, which appears to actually
be on topic for this newsgroup.
C
ClassCastException
You didn't say "peer review", you said "code review".
M
Mike Schilling
Arne Vajhøj said:
True. I've only used the service part of ASP.NET
T
The Frog
I thought it worth a mention that Apple are also dropping Adobe
Flash / Shockwave from their standard build too. Looks like a new set
of apple tools are about to be pumped into the market. So much for
industry standards......
The Frog
Flash / Shockwave from their standard build too. Looks like a new set
of apple tools are about to be pumped into the market. So much for
industry standards......
The Frog
N
Nigel Wade
The only industry "standards" Apple wants are those over which it
exercises complete control.
Applications (sorry, apps), such as those written in Java, which can be
run on systems other than those under the dominion of The House of Jobs
are to be cast out as unworthy. Programmers who develop for such systems
should be cast down as unclean. Only the truly virtuous, who develop
applications exclusively on His systems, for the sole use of disciples
who are in possession of one of His systems, will be welcome in The
House of Jobs.
So it is foretold.
S
Steve Sobol
<snip>
Please trim your posts. It's beyond irritating to have to scroll down
forever to get to your replies.
At the very least, you can trim all attributions except the most recent
one without removing any context.
S
Steve Sobol
That's actually important. Microsoft and Apple publish human
interface/UI guidelines for a reason.
T
The Frog
Jobs has tried to create a social movement from apples base of users.
The tech is crappy IMO, so he needs something to sell it. Religion
might be giving him too much credit. It seems like he wants to step
back to the computing dark ages. What a waste of progress to satisfy
one man's ego.
The Frog
The tech is crappy IMO, so he needs something to sell it. Religion
might be giving him too much credit. It seems like he wants to step
back to the computing dark ages. What a waste of progress to satisfy
one man's ego.
The Frog
A
Arne Vajhøj
It is already selling fine, so ...
Arne
R
Roedy Green
Jobs has never been big on evolution. He wants something totally
revolutionary, redesigned from the ground up and cool, to be replaced
within months. It is like the old 1950s styling changes on American
made cars each year. You try to make anything a year old or more as
obsolete and incompatible as possible.
The iPhone/iPad thinking is permeating into all Apple product lines.
I have to give credit to Jobs because he is responsible for all kinds
of bold steps including NeXT. Lately, he is more into creating the
flashy than the useful.
I have a little bit of history with him.
Back in 1979 I was working at the Human Dolphin foundation studying
communication with dolphins with Dr. John Lilly and Toni Lilly in
Redwood City California. Jobs was a patron among many other famous
people. The Lillys wanted me to meet Jobs and gave me his home phone
number. I have always had a phobia about phoning anyone, particularly
when I did not have a clear purpose, so I never called.
However, a few years later Apple invited me to California, all
expenses paid. They picked up at the airport in Barbra Streisand's
limo. It was quite a party, to introduce the Lisa, the predecessor to
the Mac.
One thing I learned on that trip was Apple's hardware was incredibly
cheap to produce in highly automated factories. They were not at all
worried about price competition. They could easily undercut the costs
of competitors, but they did not need to at all. They could get away
with huge margins.
--
Roedy Green Canadian Mind Products
http://mindprod.com
Microsoft has a new version out, Windows XP, which according to everybody is the "most reliable Windows ever." To me, this is like saying that asparagus is "the most articulate vegetable ever."
~ Dave Barry
T
The Frog
It seems as though Jobs is able to do as he pleases at the moment. I
am wondering if this will cause a division in the future development
of technology for consumer use. At the moment there is sort of a
divide but basically you can do the same things on most systems. Code
is somewhat portable, with java and scripted languages porting the
best. If however the architectures change radically then I guess there
comes a point where you have to make a decision when developing
software of which path(s) to choose. I things do head in this
direction I will be very disappointed as I can see no benefit to the
path that Jobs is taking - it simply adds no value anywhere (except
perhaps to stockholders).
@Arne: You are right, apple products are selling fine it would seem.
It unfortunately doesnt mean they are any good. To me the products are
like an amalgam assembled from knock of technologies and repackaged as
something 'cool and new' when in fact its not really anything special
at all.
The Frog
am wondering if this will cause a division in the future development
of technology for consumer use. At the moment there is sort of a
divide but basically you can do the same things on most systems. Code
is somewhat portable, with java and scripted languages porting the
best. If however the architectures change radically then I guess there
comes a point where you have to make a decision when developing
software of which path(s) to choose. I things do head in this
direction I will be very disappointed as I can see no benefit to the
path that Jobs is taking - it simply adds no value anywhere (except
perhaps to stockholders).
@Arne: You are right, apple products are selling fine it would seem.
It unfortunately doesnt mean they are any good. To me the products are
like an amalgam assembled from knock of technologies and repackaged as
something 'cool and new' when in fact its not really anything special
at all.
The Frog
N
Nigel Wade
That just goes to show how good Apple's marketing is. Apple's products
sell on design, not functionality. They are kewl fashion accessories,
not fully-functional tech. gadgets. How can any company bring their
latest, greatest, phone to market without actually testing whether it
functions correctly as a phone? Why do people still buy it when they
know it doesn't actually work as a phone?
One day someone's going to point out that the emperor is naked.
T
The Frog
Pete said:
I am not doubting the originality of the repackaged products, merely
stating that there really isnt anything new or special here. I would
not say that apple has produced anything truly original in years.
Current macs are pcs running linux, iPods are Walkman and other MP3
knock-offs (albeit well marketed), iPad is a embedded tablet pc, and
iPhone is an attempt at a smart phone. None of these concepts
themselves is new, just apples offering into the market is a little
unique and really well publicised. Quite frankly I feel that the tech
apple is using as a platform is rather limited, but I suppose thats
how you maintain control over it.
I remember reading an article on the iPhone that said something to the
effect that a wonderful new feature was going to revolutionise the way
we communicate - it was 'Facetime'. A camera on the 'front' of the
device. I was reading this at the time with my (now old) Nokia N95 and
thought to myself: 'I've had this Nokia for more than two years, and I
am pretty sure the camera on the front idea is older than that.' The
point is that this behaviour is simple marketing by apple, not some
great new tech, nor an original idea. Only the package that apple
delivers as a product, this amalgam of others work where apple takes a
'final step' and claims the entire journey as their own, can be said
to have any originality IMO.
Dont get me wrong, I do have respect for the success of the company
and the way they have achieved it. It is masterful enterprising at
work to say the least. But fairs fair - they are more of a social
movement than a technology innovator. A spell checker and an option
key are not new technology or ideas - apple has just implemented them
in apples own form.
The Frog
M
marx2k
I always love reading about comp. industry inside history. Thanks for that.
A
Arne Vajhøj
In business what counts is whether customers buy the product
or not.
Whether it is design or technology does not matter for the
bottom line.
Or maybe it does. It is probably cheaper in cost per unit to
produce fancy design than solid technology.
Arne
PS: And even though iPhone 4 has had problems, then people
somehow manage to use it for making phone calls.
A
Arne Vajhøj
You are free to think that you are smarter than the people
that buys iWhatever.
But Steve Jobs is laughing while walking to the bank.
And in general I consider it a bit foolish to consider
ones own preferences for whatever product better than
other peoples.
Arne
A
Arne Vajhøj
The stock market is betting billions that they will.
Arne