is laziness a programer's virtue?

[Xah Lee]

2007-03-29

Dear tech geekers,

In a couple of posts in the past year i have crossed-posted (e.g.
recently “What are OOP's Jargons and Complexitiesâ€, “is laziness a
programer's virtue?â€, “On Java's Interface (the meaning of interface
in computer programing)†), there are a some controversy, and lots of
off-topic and careless follow ups.

I think a few things today's tech geekers should remind themselves:

• If you deem something off-topic to “your†newsgroup, and want to
tech-geek by changing the “follow-up groupâ€, start with yourself.
Please do not cross-post yourself, and tweak the follow-up, and
proudly proclaim that you changed the follow-up as a benign gesture.

• Please remind yourself what is on-topic and off-topic. Unless you
are the auhority of a online forum, otherwise, Meta-talk, and
policing, are off-topic in general, and only tends to worsen the
forum's quality. This issue is cleared up in online communications as
early as early 1990s.

• The facility of cross-posting is a good thing as a progress of
communication technology, and the action of cross-posting is a good
thing with respect to communication. What the common tech-geekers's
sensitivity to cross-posting are due to this collective's lack of
understanding of social aspects of communication. Cross-posting isn't
a problem. The problem is the power-struggling male nature and
defensiveness in propergating the tongues of a tech geeker's own.

Tech-geeker's behavior towards cross-posting over the years did
nothing to enhance the content quality of newsgroups, but engendered
among computing language factions incommunicado, and aided in the
proliferation of unnecessary re-invention (e.g. the likes of Perl,
PHP, Python, Ruby that are essentially the same) and stagnation (e.g.
the lisp camp with their above-it attitude).

If you are a programer of X and is learning Y or wondering about Y,
please do cross-post it. If your article is relevant to X, Y, and Z,
please cross post it. If you are really anti-cross-posting, please
use a online forum that is more specialized with controlled
communication, such as mailing lists, developer's blogs, and website-
based forums.

I hope that the computing newsgroups will revive to its ancient nature
of verdant cross communication of quality content, as opposed to
today's rampant messages focused on politics, mutual sneering, closed-
mindedness, and careless postings.

References:

“Tech Geekers versus Spammersâ€
http://xahlee.org/UnixResource_dir/writ/tech_geekers_vs_spammers.html

Netiquette Guidelines, 1995, by S Hambridge. (RFC 1855)
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855

Xah
(e-mail address removed)
∑ http://xahlee.org/

 

[D Herring]

In a couple of posts in the past year i have crossed-posted (e.g.
recently “What are OOP's Jargons and Complexitiesâ€, “is laziness a
programer's virtue?â€, “On Java's Interface (the meaning of interface
in computer programing)†), there are a some controversy, and lots of
off-topic and careless follow ups.

Please don't dismiss so many posts as being "off-topic and careless".

I think a few things today's tech geekers should remind themselves:

• If you deem something off-topic to “your†newsgroup, and want to
tech-geek by changing the “follow-up groupâ€, start with yourself.
Please do not cross-post yourself, and tweak the follow-up, and
proudly proclaim that you changed the follow-up as a benign gesture.

....

A few more points:
- I know many geeks but not so many geekers...
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=geeker

- Please topquote snippets from the threads about which you are commenting.

- Please set your newsreader to prepend "Re: " or somesuch when replying
to a toplevel post.

- Please don't preach about "meta-talk and policing" in a post which is
mostly meta-talk and preaching.

Thanks,
Daniel

 

[Markus E Leypold]

¥ Please remind yourself what is on-topic and off-topic. Unless you

You, Sir, ARE off-topic. I suggest you make the experiment to post
your drivel on your web site and let your fans come to you. Should be
an eye opener, this experiment.

Regards -- Markus

 

[Ingo Menger]

If your article is relevant to X, Y, and Z,
please cross post it.

Yeah right, and if it is not, don't post it at all. Your articles are
nothing but a bunch of unfounded allegations, moralism and your
personal notion of what alledgedly "hurts society". As such, they have
no relevance at all in technical news groups.

 

[Markus E Leypold]

Yeah right, and if it is not, don't post it at all. Your articles are
nothing but a bunch of unfounded allegations, moralism and your
personal notion of what alledgedly "hurts society". As such, they have
no relevance at all in technical news groups.

But we already had of topic discussions in some of those groups
(meandering into the non technical) that weren't stomped upon by the
group's subscribers. The difference in my eyes is, that Xah is a
troll. What makes Xah a troll is neither off-topic posts nor being
incoherent -- its the attitude. He's broadcasting his drivel to a
number of groups not with the intention to discuss (he hardly ever
answers to answers to his posts), but solely with the intention to
inform the world at large about his own magnificient thoughts. As also
evidenced by reposting some of his stuff (as if he had a fan community
or as if it were a FAQ) or posting stuff dated from 2002.

Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible. People who
publish pictures of themselves as he does on the WWW probably don't
have any sense of embarrasment left -- and I consider that a necessary
part in the feedback loop which makes people change: "Look what you
did! Do you really want to look like a dolt in public?" "Umpf. No. God
that was embarrasing" <goes away with the resolution not to get into
such a situation again>.

But that won't happen to Xah.

Regards -- Markus

 

[Mirco Wahab]

Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible. People who
publish pictures of themselves as he does on the WWW probably don't
have any sense of embarrasment left ...

you think of stuff like this
www DOT m-e-leypold DOT de SLASH leypold-small.jpg
;-)

-- and I consider that a necessary
part in the feedback loop which makes people change: "Look what you
did! Do you really want to look like a dolt in public?" "Umpf. No. God
that was embarrasing" <goes away with the resolution not to get into
such a situation again>.

The reason why I answered your posting at all (besides
seeing your x-post going into 5 ng's) is your mentioning
of 'God'. According to christian tradition (which is
somehow on topic in a Perl group) it is exactly the
case of Jesus (imho), who was (in his context) the
"/Do you really want to look like a dolt in public/"
man par excellance. Socrates also comes into the mind ;-)

AFAIK - both were symptoms of the decline
of their societies at the time ...

Regards & sorry for scnr'ing

Mirco

remember - f'up to: comp.lang.perl.misc

 

[Michele Dondi]

- Please topquote snippets from the threads about which you are commenting.

- Please set your newsreader to prepend "Re: " or somesuch when replying
to a toplevel post.

- Please don't preach about "meta-talk and policing" in a post which is
mostly meta-talk and preaching.

FYI "Please" is probably a word that XL ignores completely. Thus do
what most humans in their sane state of mind would do. Killfile it. If
for some reason you can't, then ignore it. Certainly, do not feed it.


Michele

 

[Markus E Leypold]

you think of stuff like this
www DOT m-e-leypold DOT de SLASH leypold-small.jpg
;-)

;-) No. This actually is a picture of myself I like (very much
indeed), even if the long hair has gone now (I have to update the site
some time within the next weeks, but the original site generator has
died and the new site ain't ready yet).

No, what I mean, is what one poster already posted to c.l.f, what
you'll find looking for Xah Lee with Google image search and I won't
link here. My warning: You probably don't want to see a picture of
Xah's penis in full readiness.

That is, what I consider embarrasing.

The reason why I answered your posting at all (besides
seeing your x-post going into 5 ng's) is your mentioning

Your's too (you only changed the f'up) , and now I've done the
ultimate sin and reset the F'up for this answer (if you post URLs to
pictures of me, I reserve the right to say that I LIKE this picture


But that's the last x-post in this thread, I promise.


Regards -- Markus

 

[Ingo Menger]

What makes Xah a troll is neither off-topic posts nor being
incoherent -- its the attitude. He's broadcasting his drivel to a
number of groups not with the intention to discuss (he hardly ever
answers to answers to his posts), but solely with the intention to
inform the world at large about his own magnificient thoughts.

This hits the nail on the head.
Perhaps one could understand this behaviour on cultural grounds. In
chinese culture it may be not uncommon to write something that merely
sounds like great wisdom and it is nevertheless appreciated because
it's a piece of calligraphic art.

Trying to correct Xah's behaviour is probably impossible.

Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
for "hurting international society"

 

[Lew]

Markus E Leypold

Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
for "hurting international society"

Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and horrible.
How dare you?

Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to take
so lightly.

 

[George Neuner]

This hits the nail on the head.
Perhaps one could understand this behaviour on cultural grounds. In
chinese culture it may be not uncommon to write something that merely
sounds like great wisdom and it is nevertheless appreciated because
it's a piece of calligraphic art.


Perhaps somebody could ask the chinese government to put him in jail
for "hurting international society"

That's going to be tough because, according to his web page, he's
living in a Honda Civic somewhere in Illinois, USA.

http://xahlee.org/PageTwo_dir/Personal_dir/xah.html

George

 

[Bruce C. Baker]

Markus E Leypold



Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and
horrible. How dare you?

Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to
take so lightly.

That's right! Momma don't allow no levity around here!

Off with Markus' head! :-D

 

[Lew]

"Lew" ranted maniacally:

That's right! Momma don't allow no levity around here!

Off with Markus' head! :-D

As they walked off together, Alice heard the King say in a low
voice, to the company generally, `You are all pardoned.' `Come,
THAT'S a good thing!' she said to herself, for she had felt quite
unhappy at the number of executions the Queen had ordered.
- /Alice's Adventures in Wonderland/, Lewis Carroll

 

[Ingo Menger]

Markus E Leypold



Y'know, even in jest, calling for an oppressive regime to suppress even
wrong-headed and self-serving garbage self-expression is immoral and horrible.

You're right. I confess this joke was going too far.

Free speech, free press and free expression of ideas is not something to take
so lightly.

I'm with you on this point.
But, since the biggest crime in Xah Lee's opinion apparently is
"harming" and "damaging" society through expression of ideas, it must
be possible to judge him by his own standards.