beta2 XHTML compliance? is this necessary. OR STUPID...read UP MICROSOFT

[Steve Walker]

Requested by WHO? And for WHAT REASON?

I'd like it, for a start. We need to parse large third party HTML
documents. We currently do this with PERL scripts. I'd much rather be
able to use the XML toolset (schema validation, XPATH, etc) to do this.
I'd also like to see standardisation within the industry which produces
these documents so that much of the data we currently extract manually
can be extracted programmatically. XML makes this kind of thing
possible.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Thank you, John! :-D

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

Well 99% of the people in this community certainly could become an MVP -
if they had the capability, aptitide and attitude. A thank you is
certainly all I need to realise that the people I help for free appreciate
my time - given freely. Being an MVP is not about reward, its about
community spirit and participation. The reward is the simple thank you
now and again which is enough. I get paid extremely well for what I do in
my job - the recognition of my peers is an added bonus.

Give me a simple thank you any day.

Regards

John Timney
ASP.NET MVP
Microsoft Regional Director

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Sounds like you ought to BE an MVP!

--

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

 

[rhat]

Dear Dudeless,

Why not actually have something to say before posting anything

 

[rhat]

You get PAID? You actually have a REAL JOB?

Real Programmers with REAL JOBS don't have SPARE TIME like you do

Do you actually work for someone? You must NOT WORK MUCH as your here. AND
IF YOU'RE HERE YOU CAN'T BE WORKING THERE.

PERIOD.

ENOUGH OF YOUR B.S.

Software projects are 99% late and I can see that your SO-CALLED next
project (if you actually have one) will be also if you ANY amount of time
here.

Well 99% of the people in this community certainly could become an MVP - if
they had the capability, aptitide and attitude. A thank you is certainly
all I need to realise that the people I help for free appreciate my time -
given freely. Being an MVP is not about reward, its about community spirit
and participation. The reward is the simple thank you now and again which
is enough. I get paid extremely well for what I do in my job - the
recognition of my peers is an added bonus.

Give me a simple thank you any day.

Regards

John Timney
ASP.NET MVP
Microsoft Regional Director

 

[C-Services Holland b.v.]

You get PAID? You actually have a REAL JOB?

Real Programmers with REAL JOBS don't have SPARE TIME like you do

Do you actually work for someone? You must NOT WORK MUCH as your here. AND
IF YOU'RE HERE YOU CAN'T BE WORKING THERE.

PERIOD.

ENOUGH OF YOUR B.S.

Seems like you have no job since you have so much free time to come here
and shout at everyone (hmm did you get fired last week or something?).
You seem to have ample free time and following your logic, you're not a
real programmer. If you're not a real programmer, why the hell are you
complaining about some adaptation MS is making.

So enough of YOUR b.s.

And before you go off on another rant, I browse these newsgroups during
my coffeebrakes. Yes I have coffeebrakes with a some free time, I'm not
a slave. I don't know where you're from, but over here you can't force
people to work 8hrs straight without a break.

 

[Michael Gray]

Well 99% of the people in this community certainly could become an MVP - if
they had the capability, aptitide and attitude.

:
You omitted 'desire'.
(And 'altitude')
:

A thank you is certainly
all I need to realise that the people I help for free appreciate my time -
given freely.

:
There we agree.

Apparently it seems that many software folks confuse "reward" with
"money", "employment", "share bonuses" or even "praise", or some such
equivalent.

Whereas for most of us programmers, (acting as human beings for the
while, instead of persistently infallible compubots), it is merely a
simple and polite "thank you" for our honest, and patently gratis,
input:-
Right or Wrong.

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Hi Rinze,

Hey, I come here for a break too! It's nice to find out that this is
probably relatively common.

The nature of programming is problem-solving, and solving complex problems
requires that one take a break now and then to allow one's unconscious mind
to work on the problem, by freeing up brain processor and memory that is
currently being used by the conscious mind. So, every few hours, I look away
from my immediate and pressing problems, and peruse the problems of others,
attempting to sow a bit of good seed (which I will reap later) in the
process. It is indeed relaxing by comparison, since you generally help with
problems you have solved before.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

 

[Brian Henry]

don't have spare time? that's the biggest load of BS i've ever heard. You
work 8hrs a day, you don't want to work all night too. Where I work they
encourage you NOT to take home your work because of regulations we must
follow with HIPPA complience requirements. So lots of spare time here, and
if you work for the NSA or such they are not allowed to take home work at
all computer related.. for national security reasons, and many other
companies have similar policies... from how you talk it sounds like you have
absoutly no experience in the real world of jobs.

 

[Mendhak The Frog]

Rhat,

The internet is used for purposes other than goat porn, so to some of us who
don't have jobs, standards do matter.

-Mendhak [Most Valueless/Worthless Professional - Professional Circus Clown]

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.

Not pure logic, I'm afraid. I am an MVP. I am NOT here in my spare time,
nor have I ever said that I was. I do have a great job. I suppose it could
pay better, but I do get to do some fascinating stuff with some
fascinating stuff. Now, as to spare time, well, you may be interested to
know that even Microsoft employees are encouraged to participate in
communities, to help others, and to build relationships. This is true even
when they are "on the clock." And, as a Senior Applications Developer for
my company, I also encourage my people to do the same. It's good for both
everyone else and for the person doing the helping. I often have to
research my answers, which increases my knowledge. And networking with
other professionals is always a good thing. I have dozens of friends I can
turn to when I need help with something, as we all do (need help), always.

So, as to your logic, your premise that MVPs "Say there [sic] are here in
their spare time" is incorrect. I for one, have never said such a thing.
Therefore, your conclusions based upon that premise are flawed as well. In
fact, there is no logical reason for making such statements at all. What
does it accomplish? Is there some logical purpose behind this flame war?

In short, we all get a bit pissed at times when we're under the gun, and
those of us on the bleeding edge of things are often under the gun. I
don't know if that's the case with you, but it certainly is the case with
myself. I have found that, while it is nearly impossible to avoid getting
angry, hanging on to anger is counter-productive. Smash a keyboard and get
on with what does matter.

I'm not singling you out, BTW. I have seen quite a bit of vitriol in this
protracted battle of words, from quite a few people. Some discussions are
better off abandoned. The definition of insanity is a person that keeps
doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again. Assuming you
have had a point to make at some time, I'm sure you have had ample
opportunity to make it. If there are those who choose to ignore it, there
is nothing you can do to force them to accept it. Therefore, it is best to
walk away.

Have a cup of Starbucks French Roast (or whatever your personal favorite
is), take a deep breath, and may the force be with you. And now, back to
my screaming deadline, my screaming bosses, personnel, and friends all.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

ZERO FACTS? REALLY?

Here's FACTS: http://tinyurl.com/8lwgb

What does this mean? If you are here every day constantly posting or even
a
just a few days a week, it means you are not at a REAL JOB because REAL
J.O.B. don't have all the SPARE TIME or FREE TIME YOU HAVE.

Do you see the top programmers from MS, or SUN, or IBM here even a single
day of the week?
NO, NO, NO, NO

How about the average programmer? No, No, No, No.

Last time I check, most programming projects from MS are what? L.A.T.E.
but
somehow you have all this SPARE TIME? Since you have all this spare time
why
not see if you can actually get some spare work at MS as they can't even
get
Longhorn or anything else for that matter out the door.

The reality is that in order to get a M.V.P means you have to have
"significant" contributions, i.e.. newsgroup postings and the like...free
info, doesn't mean right info, it actually works in the real world info.

THUS, IF YOU ARE HERE, means you can't be THERE at a JOB or DOING A REAL
J.O.B.
Even if you TELECOMMUTE, you can be in TWO places at the same time. That
is
are busying writing a newsgroup post or busy writing a PROGRAM. See the
difference

Getting an M.V.P almost always means you have no J.O.B. nor can keep a
JOB
But since you are SO WELL KNOWN, how can you have so much SPARE TIME to
begin with? The TOP programmers are ALWAYS in DEMAND and DO NOT, REPEAT
DO
NOT HAVE any SPARE TIME. Thus, you must not be a top programmmer. GOT IT?

SO THERE ARE YOUR FACTS for the REAL WORLD TO SEE just how EMPTY the MVP
and
newsgroup world really is.

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.

 

[John Timney \(ASP.NET MVP\)]

If you dont have any spare time (which is ironic given you are responding in
this thread)- then you probably can't manage your time well. The "real
programmers" who work with me give accurate and concise estimates of their
expected deliverables, measured through experience or concencus of their
peers, as I do - and consequently rarely deliver late. When they do its
managed into the overall plan so impact assessment analysis can be carried
out and mitigation put in place. Projects of any significant consequence
are rarely a single person effort and its a teams cohesive ability to work
collectively and ensure the deliverables can be achieved that creates
success.

If you are delivering late it likely shows your inability to work well in a
productive team. Perhaps you should spend more time here actually learning
about the end to end delivery lifecycle and the factors that affect it - for
example risk management, project planning and service delivery. The groups
could of course help you become more productive, should you have the
courtesy to ask the correct type of questions and have an ability to accept
advice from your more learned and wizened peers. There are lots of free
community resources to help you gain the real world experience your posts
suggest you need.

--
Regards

John Timney
ASP.NET MVP
Microsoft Regional Director

 

[Richard Myers]

Anything is possible in the Matrix dear boy. Time and space are mere
illusions.

Its interesting that you assume the value of ones contribution to any given
project is the amount of time spent on site. Thats hack thinking too me.
Professional developers are not remunerated for the sheer number of hours we
clock up but for the insight we can apply once on site. Which is why some of
us are paid a couple of hundred an hour and others of us are paid $25 p/h.
Simply because YOU need to work more in order to get your fill doesn;t mean
the rest of us do. Therefore i can easily how an MVP would have more than
enough time to both earn a crust and contribute to these boards.

Your so called PURE LOGIC: is flawed. Logic is objective not subjective. You
seem to have taken your own personal circumstances and tried to "therefore"
them into everyone elses lives. So much so that its not logic at all. You
have expressed quite a silly little point of view really.

Richard

Rhat,

The internet is used for purposes other than goat porn, so to some of us who
don't have jobs, standards do matter.

-Mendhak [Most Valueless/Worthless Professional - Professional Circus Clown]

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.

Not pure logic, I'm afraid. I am an MVP. I am NOT here in my spare time,
nor have I ever said that I was. I do have a great job. I suppose it could
pay better, but I do get to do some fascinating stuff with some
fascinating stuff. Now, as to spare time, well, you may be interested to
know that even Microsoft employees are encouraged to participate in
communities, to help others, and to build relationships. This is true even
when they are "on the clock." And, as a Senior Applications Developer for
my company, I also encourage my people to do the same. It's good for both
everyone else and for the person doing the helping. I often have to
research my answers, which increases my knowledge. And networking with
other professionals is always a good thing. I have dozens of friends I can
turn to when I need help with something, as we all do (need help), always.

So, as to your logic, your premise that MVPs "Say there [sic] are here in
their spare time" is incorrect. I for one, have never said such a thing.
Therefore, your conclusions based upon that premise are flawed as well. In
fact, there is no logical reason for making such statements at all. What
does it accomplish? Is there some logical purpose behind this flame war?

In short, we all get a bit pissed at times when we're under the gun, and
those of us on the bleeding edge of things are often under the gun. I
don't know if that's the case with you, but it certainly is the case with
myself. I have found that, while it is nearly impossible to avoid getting
angry, hanging on to anger is counter-productive. Smash a keyboard and get
on with what does matter.

I'm not singling you out, BTW. I have seen quite a bit of vitriol in this
protracted battle of words, from quite a few people. Some discussions are
better off abandoned. The definition of insanity is a person that keeps
doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again. Assuming you
have had a point to make at some time, I'm sure you have had ample
opportunity to make it. If there are those who choose to ignore it, there
is nothing you can do to force them to accept it. Therefore, it is best to
walk away.

Have a cup of Starbucks French Roast (or whatever your personal favorite
is), take a deep breath, and may the force be with you. And now, back to
my screaming deadline, my screaming bosses, personnel, and friends all.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

ZERO FACTS? REALLY?

Here's FACTS: http://tinyurl.com/8lwgb

What does this mean? If you are here every day constantly posting or even
a
just a few days a week, it means you are not at a REAL JOB because REAL
J.O.B. don't have all the SPARE TIME or FREE TIME YOU HAVE.

Do you see the top programmers from MS, or SUN, or IBM here even a single
day of the week?
NO, NO, NO, NO

How about the average programmer? No, No, No, No.

Last time I check, most programming projects from MS are what? L.A.T.E.
but
somehow you have all this SPARE TIME? Since you have all this spare time
why
not see if you can actually get some spare work at MS as they can't even
get
Longhorn or anything else for that matter out the door.

The reality is that in order to get a M.V.P means you have to have
"significant" contributions, i.e.. newsgroup postings and the like...free
info, doesn't mean right info, it actually works in the real world info.

THUS, IF YOU ARE HERE, means you can't be THERE at a JOB or DOING A REAL
J.O.B.
Even if you TELECOMMUTE, you can be in TWO places at the same time. That
is
are busying writing a newsgroup post or busy writing a PROGRAM. See the
difference

Getting an M.V.P almost always means you have no J.O.B. nor can keep a
JOB
But since you are SO WELL KNOWN, how can you have so much SPARE TIME to
begin with? The TOP programmers are ALWAYS in DEMAND and DO NOT, REPEAT
DO
NOT HAVE any SPARE TIME. Thus, you must not be a top programmmer. GOT IT?

SO THERE ARE YOUR FACTS for the REAL WORLD TO SEE just how EMPTY the MVP
and
newsgroup world really is.

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.












Interesting conclusion, especially when you know total 0 about person(s)
who
you flame. And as you have 0 facts to prove your point (with the so
called
XHTML issue). Unfortunately for you, I already have a job (see, I'm
doing
this on my spare time) and quite well paid one. And been for a many
years.
Who says I work when you think I do?

All I'm wondering is that if You are so seriously working developer, how
can
you You also find the time post here a countless number of posts
repeating
the same thing over and over. You must be wasting your valuable time too
(and you are also soon out of a job)

 

[Kevin Spencer]

Now Richard, I have to take issue with your characterization of time and
space as "mere" illusions. In fact, there is nothing "mere" about it. They
are very sophisticated and clever illusions.

--
;-),

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
..Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

Anything is possible in the Matrix dear boy. Time and space are mere
illusions.

Its interesting that you assume the value of ones contribution to any
given
project is the amount of time spent on site. Thats hack thinking too me.
Professional developers are not remunerated for the sheer number of hours
we
clock up but for the insight we can apply once on site. Which is why some
of
us are paid a couple of hundred an hour and others of us are paid $25 p/h.
Simply because YOU need to work more in order to get your fill doesn;t
mean
the rest of us do. Therefore i can easily how an MVP would have more than
enough time to both earn a crust and contribute to these boards.

Your so called PURE LOGIC: is flawed. Logic is objective not subjective.
You
seem to have taken your own personal circumstances and tried to
"therefore"
them into everyone elses lives. So much so that its not logic at all. You
have expressed quite a silly little point of view really.

Richard

Rhat,

The internet is used for purposes other than goat porn, so to some of us who
don't have jobs, standards do matter.

-Mendhak [Most Valueless/Worthless Professional - Professional Circus Clown]

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.

Not pure logic, I'm afraid. I am an MVP. I am NOT here in my spare
time,
nor have I ever said that I was. I do have a great job. I suppose it could
pay better, but I do get to do some fascinating stuff with some
fascinating stuff. Now, as to spare time, well, you may be interested
to
know that even Microsoft employees are encouraged to participate in
communities, to help others, and to build relationships. This is true even
when they are "on the clock." And, as a Senior Applications Developer for
my company, I also encourage my people to do the same. It's good for both
everyone else and for the person doing the helping. I often have to
research my answers, which increases my knowledge. And networking with
other professionals is always a good thing. I have dozens of friends I can
turn to when I need help with something, as we all do (need help), always.

So, as to your logic, your premise that MVPs "Say there [sic] are here in
their spare time" is incorrect. I for one, have never said such a
thing.
Therefore, your conclusions based upon that premise are flawed as well. In
fact, there is no logical reason for making such statements at all.
What
does it accomplish? Is there some logical purpose behind this flame
war?

In short, we all get a bit pissed at times when we're under the gun,
and
those of us on the bleeding edge of things are often under the gun. I
don't know if that's the case with you, but it certainly is the case with
myself. I have found that, while it is nearly impossible to avoid getting
angry, hanging on to anger is counter-productive. Smash a keyboard and get
on with what does matter.

I'm not singling you out, BTW. I have seen quite a bit of vitriol in this
protracted battle of words, from quite a few people. Some discussions are
better off abandoned. The definition of insanity is a person that keeps
doing the same thing that doesn't work over and over again. Assuming
you
have had a point to make at some time, I'm sure you have had ample
opportunity to make it. If there are those who choose to ignore it, there
is nothing you can do to force them to accept it. Therefore, it is best to
walk away.

Have a cup of Starbucks French Roast (or whatever your personal
favorite
is), take a deep breath, and may the force be with you. And now, back
to
my screaming deadline, my screaming bosses, personnel, and friends all.

--
HTH,

Kevin Spencer
Microsoft MVP
.Net Developer
Ambiguity has a certain quality to it.

ZERO FACTS? REALLY?

Here's FACTS: http://tinyurl.com/8lwgb

What does this mean? If you are here every day constantly posting or even
a
just a few days a week, it means you are not at a REAL JOB because
REAL
J.O.B. don't have all the SPARE TIME or FREE TIME YOU HAVE.

Do you see the top programmers from MS, or SUN, or IBM here even a single
day of the week?
NO, NO, NO, NO

How about the average programmer? No, No, No, No.

Last time I check, most programming projects from MS are what?
L.A.T.E.
but
somehow you have all this SPARE TIME? Since you have all this spare time
why
not see if you can actually get some spare work at MS as they can't even
get
Longhorn or anything else for that matter out the door.

The reality is that in order to get a M.V.P means you have to have
"significant" contributions, i.e.. newsgroup postings and the like...free
info, doesn't mean right info, it actually works in the real world info.

THUS, IF YOU ARE HERE, means you can't be THERE at a JOB or DOING A REAL
J.O.B.
Even if you TELECOMMUTE, you can be in TWO places at the same time. That
is
are busying writing a newsgroup post or busy writing a PROGRAM. See
the
difference

Getting an M.V.P almost always means you have no J.O.B. nor can keep a
JOB
But since you are SO WELL KNOWN, how can you have so much SPARE TIME
to
begin with? The TOP programmers are ALWAYS in DEMAND and DO NOT,
REPEAT
DO
NOT HAVE any SPARE TIME. Thus, you must not be a top programmmer. GOT IT?

SO THERE ARE YOUR FACTS for the REAL WORLD TO SEE just how EMPTY the MVP
and
newsgroup world really is.

PURE LOGIC: You can't be in two places at the same time and MVP's violate
that all the time, thus they are not telling the complete TRUTH when they
say there are here in their spare time and have some great job.












Interesting conclusion, especially when you know total 0 about person(s)
who
you flame. And as you have 0 facts to prove your point (with the so
called
XHTML issue). Unfortunately for you, I already have a job (see, I'm
doing
this on my spare time) and quite well paid one. And been for a many
years.
Who says I work when you think I do?

All I'm wondering is that if You are so seriously working developer, how
can
you You also find the time post here a countless number of posts
repeating
the same thing over and over. You must be wasting your valuable time too
(and you are also soon out of a job)

 

[Guest]

Rhat obviously you don't know a thing about webprogramming.

If you have a job you most have a pretty stupid employer.

You see I am writing web applications at the moment, and in visual studio I
don't even dare going to design view cause it will mess with my html. Why?
cause it doesn't hold to the standards. And it thinks it can do html better
than I can (which obviously it can't)

When you learn html, you learn the standards cause that's HTML.

The L stands for language, when someone is speaking a language people that
know this language should understand him. That's why it has rules, and this
rules are the standards.

So that's the theory, and now the practical stuff you think doesn't exist.

I am spending days, weeks even trying to get all my pages to work in all
browsers. I have had to override almost every webcontrol I use to make it
comply to the standards cause if it don't the webcontrol simply is rendered
wrong in some browsers. I want ALL users to view my page correctly. I even
had to add a second stylesheet with css code that only gets rendered by IE so
my users can view my page correctly with IE too.

asp.net 2 and IE7 will end all this nonsense (or at least most of it). By
holding to the standards as most browsers are trying to do they help making
the web a place where everyone can see every page in every browser in the way
the developer wants them to see it.

And about the MVP's, I love you. I've been helped many times by you and I
know that when something complicated works, there probably has been an MVP
doing his (or her) magic in either a direct or an indirect way. Big up for
all of you!

Life is good Rhat,

Tinco Andringa

 

[not]

Obviously some idiot failed his microsoft exam and no thinks he's a god in
w3c standards. What real world experience has this person got in regards to
browsers, compliancy and cross-browser compatability. Has he even designed a
site that is XHTML, W3C, and DDA compliant as well as being fully cross
browser? I don't think he has. However, when you spend the last 8 months
designing a site from the database up to the HTML, you end up with 160,000
lines in my last project and then people like this guy start an argument -
he deserves everything he gets.

 

[Guest]

Dear Rhat,
I was going through your post, I personally do not agree with your
opinion. MVP's are doing a great job by helping fellow developers in solving
problems which the developer is not able to solve by himself. In fact,
because of the tendency to help others is what they have been awarded the MVP
for.

As far as your XHTML query is conserned, I understand that the output from a
ASP.NET page is completely customisable. So if you dont want XHTML, you don't
have to worry about it.

And coming back to the J.O.B issue, few friends of mine who are MVP's are
very well placed in their career and I promise you there arent many of MVP
who are jobless.

Please do consider the helping tendency provided by others and try reducing
the anger you have on others.

Finally, MVP's are the one's towards whom the developer community turns for
suggestions and helping hand in tough situations.

Hope to see you around,

 

[Alvin Bruney [MVP - ASP.NET]]

you shouldn't need to re-adjust all your html, simply set the correct *agent
in the web config file to force the correct html version to render to
requesting browsers and your pages will draw correctly in all browsers.

--
Regards,
Alvin Bruney - ASP.NET MVP

[Shameless Author Plug]
The Microsoft Office Web Components Black Book with .NET
Now available @ www.lulu.com/owc, Amazon.com etc

 

[Guest]

Hi rhat,

If converting an existing site from HTML to XHTML a little care needs to be
taken, as with any conversion on any platform.

The benefits of XHTML compliance aren't always obvious but here are a two
off the top of my head that I believe in:
1) By sticking to the rigours of XML the structure of the page is more
obvious to both humans and software, this makes life easier when writing
Javascript to work with the DOM, and when writing stylesheets (and when
writing browsers but not many people do that). Search engine spiders find
them easy to process too.
2) XHTML is a modular and extensible specification, this enables it to
target multiple devices simultaneously - I believe most mobile devices insist
upon XHTML, not HTML, these days.

Regarding the use of standards, if the accepted wisdom among developers is
to follow the standards, this will hopefully prevent the historical problems
of browser makers bringing their own rules and features (like Netscape's
Layers, or Microsoft's ActiveX controls) that aren't universally available.

The standards-makers have put a lot of practical thought into best
practices, and those site that follow the spirit of these standards (such as
msn.com, wired.com, chevrolet.com) are seeing real benefits - slimmer pages,
better search engine coverage, improved accessibility (screen readers and
other disabled aids get on much better with standards-compliant sites).


But who wants to have to think about all this stuff anyway? I spend most of
my working day writing back-end code - how is it a bad thing for the
development tools we use to support these features - a lot of the new
features in Visual Studio 2005 Beta 2 don't require thought or effort on the
part of the developer, but if the developer wants the resulting web pages to
be XHTML, it will help the developer achieve that. XHTML certainly isn't a
mandatory requirement if you're using asp.net 2beta2, it's just one of the
options - so if you really hate it you don't have to think about it.

I hope this helps,
Mark Watkins

 

[Guest]

While I agree that flaming MVPs is pointless and a lot of times uncalled
for-, I do see rhat's point about their arrogance and I rarely see an answer
that is oriented towards finding a solution rather then providing book
knowledge back; there are, of course, exceptions as always and some are truly
valuable.

To the point of the original subject - XHTML is derivation of HTML -
microsoft has always been beaten up for providing propriatery solutions or
inventing their own "standards"; finally, when someone comes out and states
that all the code will be XHTML standard compliant - someone else needs to
come out and bitch.

Follow the standards, if you dont like standards or evolution thereof - dont
use new products; continue using IE 2.0 / Netscape 3.0; avoid javascript, and
proceed trailing progress.

Standards are needed, in fact they are a must, and if those people that use
non-standard browsers need access to your web site, they will get a standard
one.

(http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp)

IE6 60.7% of users - Obviously supports it
IE5 2.8% of users - Supports it
Opera 7/8 1.8% of users supports it

Firefox which consitutes 26.3% of all users is far more strict with
standards then IE
(http://www.breakingpar.com/bkp/home.nsf/0/87256B280015193F87256F0B005844BE)
Mozilla (3.5%) - Supports it.

Then you have netscape 4 and netscape 7 (not sure if they support XHTML) and
frankly I dont care about users stuck so far in the past.

The last 4% of users - time for an upgrade.

With all that - I think you should stop wasting your time posting countiless
flames and go read a book and validate your web sites.

 

[Guest]

I don't agree with the subject line, and don't think that rhat's comments are
conductive to a technical support site but, no one has addressed his biggest
misconception - that xhtml is not backward compatible with HTML.

xhtml IS HTML formatted as a properly formatted xml document.

What does that mean?

The basics of xhtml are as follows:
1. Has an xml document header - this would be ignored by any HTML browser
that does not recognize xhtml
2. Tag names are in all lower case - regular HTML does not care about case
and will render xhtml tags as HTML tags.
3. All tags must have a closing tag - regular HTML does not require this,
but the HTML tags that are not normally closed can be closed without causing
problems with any HTML browser.
4. Tags cannot be cross nested - Most HTML browsers will deal with this but
MS does it differently from NS and FireFox probably is different still.

There are other differences, but they are designed to be backward readable
by HTML browsers.

Does this address the issues of Vender specific extensions to HTML or xhtml?
No, but it doesn't increase these issues either.

Does it address your need to test your pages in each browser that you are
targeting? No, but if you think that MS, NS, Opera, and FireFox all render
the same HTML the same way and that you only need to test on one of the
browsers, then you obviously haven't done any HTML development. These issues
DON'T increase in xhtml.

I for one am glad that VS is becoming xhtml compatible. This means that the
generated code will work better with browsers going forward and probably
render quicker on xhtml compatible browsers. At some point (once xhtml
compatible browsers have been around for 10 years or so) bowsers will appear
that fail on documents that are not xhtml compatible because the lack of
rigorous coding in HTML forces browser writers to handle all sorts of
non-standard syntax that xhtml browsers can reject as malformed documents.

Finally, just because .NET 2.0 is xhtml compatible, does not mean that it
will force you to use xhtml. There are a number of settings in VS that deal
with most of the issues and compatibility validation depending upon your
target browser. What is does mean is that for those of us who do want
properly formatted xhtml documents we will be able to get them. Also, since
MS addresses the issue in VS, then third party component venders are more
likely to develop components that are xhtml compatible.

Vincent Minden