Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

[Fredrik Lundh]

It's clear that people use the term "Python developer" similarly to
"Oracle developer", where you don't get many people in the wild
actually developing Oracle products themselves, and so the term has an
established meaning of someone developing with that technology. Thus,
many people, especially those accustomed to using more corporate
technologies like Oracle or Java would see "Developers" or "Developer"
links and think of stuff they can develop with, rather than finished
applications or solutions, for example; it certainly wouldn't occur to
them that the links would point to some internal Oracle portal strictly
for Oracle development staff, some Sun portal for Java development
staff, or tools for working on the Python implementation.

this assumes that the "developers" link lead to a page that's entirely
useless for people developing with Python. that's not even true for
today's "developer" page...

(I'd solve this by adding disambiguation to the page itself, since
people can arrive on it in many different ways. good information
design is not only about what's on the front page...)

</F>

 

[Tim Parkin]

Tim Parkin wrote:
I surely hope you're not optimizing the site only for people who don't in-
tend to leave the front page...

I sureley hope you can stop being facetious..

Tim Parkin

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

Can't say I've ever run into anything that hadn't already been
reported.

how did you check if it was already reported ?

</F>

 

[Peter Decker]

how did you check if it was already reported ?

I asked about it on this list, or on the wxPython list, or whatever
was the appropriate list. That's my first response; if people on the
list had confirmed it as a bug, I would have then asked where to
report it.

Of course, you're straying so far from the original thought behind
this thread, and that is that the Python website is using some terms
differently than the majority of people who will eventually use the
site would understand them. The number of people who are brilliant
enough to actually contribute to the development of the Python
language is miniscule compared to the potential number of programmers
out there who could adopt Python as their language of choice, and thus
consider themselves 'Python developers'.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

I would have then asked where to report it.

on the earlier site, there was a link on the frontpage. on the current
site, you'll have to look under "python-dev" (or in a group of links de-
scribed as "developer info" on the download site).

Of course, you're straying so far from the original thought behind
this thread, and that is that the Python website is using some terms
differently than the majority of people who will eventually use the
site would understand them.

no, I'm saying that we should realize that we have to live with that
ambiguity, and fix the site so that someone who's not the "right kind
of developer" doesn't have to use the back button, whether he/she
arrives on the developer pages via google, via the front-page, or via
some other "python developer" link on or off the site.

</F>

 

[Ron Adam]

Tim Parkin wrote:

while "PSF" is completely incomprehensible for someone who doesn't
already know what it is... why even keep it on the front page ?

Looks like a good place for a tool tip, PSF is obviously an acronym, so
how about having the full name pop up when the mouse is over it?

I think the PSF is important enough to have a link on *every* page. It
doesn't need a lot of space, but it should be easy to get to from
anywhere on the web site.

 

[Fredrik Lundh]

I think the PSF is important enough to have a link on *every* page. It
doesn't need a lot of space, but it should be easy to get to from
anywhere on the web site.

a copyright blurb at the bottom of the page would be one obvious place to
put it.

</F>

 

[Steve Holden]

I sureley hope you can stop being facetious..

And I surely hope we can all work together for the better representation
of Python to *all* of its communities

regards
Steve

 

[Paul Boddie]

[Developer links and developer/development resources]

this assumes that the "developers" link lead to a page that's entirely
useless for people developing with Python. that's not even true for
today's "developer" page...

True. As you say, there are links to bug reporting tools and, at least
on the current site, lots of links to other, potentially useful
resources - too many in the sidebar for my liking, though. However,
other projects and companies tend to move things which developers using
the technology might find useful to other, more focused pages. Again,
looking at the PostgreSQL site, they have such resources available via
the "Support" link:

http://www.postgresql.org/support/

Meanwhile, keeping the more corporate style of site in mind, the
Trolltech one does have bug tracking resources on the developer page,
but then that page isn't really about developing the offered products
themselves, so there is really only one kind of "developer" audience
involved.

(I'd solve this by adding disambiguation to the page itself, since
people can arrive on it in many different ways. good information
design is not only about what's on the front page...)

True, but then I'd hope that, for example, a "Support" link would lead
to a "Support" page which had support-related resources. Any front page
link to a "developers of the implementation" page would also have to
lead to something pertinent to that description, too. But having looked
in the past at various parts of the old site in order to find canonical
resources, perhaps the biggest challenge in maintaining the Python site
is having coherent navigation with less redundant content: I got the
impression that there were a number of pages that had been kept around
"just in case we don't mention this somewhere else" and links through
such pages with no guarantee that you'd get to an up-to-date summary of
the desired information in a timely fashion, if at all.

Paul

 

[Tim Parkin]

True, but then I'd hope that, for example, a "Support" link would lead
to a "Support" page which had support-related resources. Any front page
link to a "developers of the implementation" page would also have to
lead to something pertinent to that description, too. But having looked
in the past at various parts of the old site in order to find canonical
resources, perhaps the biggest challenge in maintaining the Python site
is having coherent navigation with less redundant content: I got the
impression that there were a number of pages that had been kept around
"just in case we don't mention this somewhere else" and links through
such pages with no guarantee that you'd get to an up-to-date summary of
the desired information in a timely fashion, if at all.

Indeed, that is one of the big challenges and we're trying to approach
it from the top down. At the moment we've trimmed down the number of top
level sections and the next stage is to address the top page of each of
those sections (e.g. the 'community', 'documentation','python-dev' pages).

Still some work left cleaning up after the move to the new site but this
is going to be a priority very soon. Do you want me to include you on
any emails regarding this?

Tim Parkin

 

[Tim Parkin]

And I surely hope we can all work together for the better representation
of Python to *all* of its communities

regards
Steve

My apologies to all, I shouldn't rise to the bait..

Tim Parkin

 

[Ron Adam]

a copyright blurb at the bottom of the page would be one obvious place to
put it.

Yes, that was my first thought, but I think since the PFS is directly
involved in recruiting and organizing support for the development of
python and the python community, it probably needs to be a bit more
prominent than that.


I think there is still room for improving the grouping of the web site
in general. For example you could consider that there are three major
groups...

* For Python users: Those using python to write programs. This would b
e the introduction, the user/library guide, the tutorial, and other
documentation on how to use python for writing programs along with the
download links for the current versions.

* Python product(s) suppliers: Finished applications modules and tools
written in python and third party information/products for python users.
(outside website links, books, t-shirts, and other items ... also fit
in this catagory)

* Python development and support: For the development of the python
core and the python library, the documentation, and the web site. As
well as the PFS.

These overlap, but the nice thing about hyper linked documents is that
general groupings can be maintained and it still works. While the PFS
is in the third group, since it is involved in both seeking and
promoting support of python, it needs to be visible in the other groups
as well.

Of course, others would probably arrange things differently.

Ron

 

[skip]

amk> Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think
amk> we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

There was already a "pippy": Python for Palm...

Skip

 

[jjcassidy]

richard wrote:
[snip]
Should the "Python Cheeseshop" have anything in it, though? Having a
stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly!

 

[Ed Leafe]

amk> Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though,
I think
amk> we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced
'Pippy').

There was already a "pippy": Python for Palm...

I second the suggestion earlier for making it a simple, non-silly
name like 'PPI' for the Python Package Index. I mean, does anyone
ever feel tempted to refer to the FBI with a cute name like 'fibby'?

I'm a big Monty Python fan from way back, but I still cringe at
names that sound like they were created at the Ministry of Silly Names.

-- Ed Leafe
-- http://leafe.com
-- http://dabodev.com

 

[Tim Hochberg]

richard wrote:
[snip]
Should the "Python Cheeseshop" have anything in it, though? Having a
stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly!

Well, it shouldn't have any *cheese*, but that's probably OK for a
software repository.

 

[Paul Boddie]

Still some work left cleaning up after the move to the new site but this
is going to be a priority very soon. Do you want me to include you on
any emails regarding this?

I'll have a look into the site developer tools for python.org and see
what I can contribute.

Paul

 

[Ron Adam]

richard wrote:
[snip]
Should the "Python Cheeseshop" have anything in it, though? Having a
stocked cheese shop in relation to Python is just silly!

Cheese (or the lack of cheese) is never silly, Thus the slogan... "The
power of cheese".

Now if you want silliness, then the correct establishment for that is
"The Ministry of Silly Walks".

Ron

 

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

I second the suggestion earlier for making it a simple, non-silly
name like 'PPI' for the Python Package Index. I mean, does anyone

The only flaw with PPI may be if various graphic artists/digital
photographers do a search... It's already used for "Pixels Per Inch"
--

 

[Max M]

Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think we
should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

When short obscure names are bad in programming, whay are they good in
general communication.

"Python Packages" is too obvious perhaps?

When we start using eggs will it then be renamed to "Dairy Shop" or
perhaps "Daisy" to make it obscure? Or the "Chickens Nest"?


Please. If it is meant to be used and understood, both Cheeseshop and
Pypi are bad names.


--

hilsen/regards Max M, Denmark

http://www.mxm.dk/
IT's Mad Science

Phone: +45 66 11 84 94
Mobile: +45 29 93 42 96