Cheese Shop: some history for the new-comers

S

Sybren Stuvel

A.M. Kuchling enlightened us with:
Given the endless whiny complaints about the name, though, I think
we should just give up and go back to PyPI (pronounced 'Pippy').

I love The Python Cheese Shop. It's original and distinctive. Besides
that, it gives you more information that PyPI since Python is written
fully.

Not every name has to fully reflect the named. I mean, Microsoft is
the largest software company on the planet, but no way that you can
guess that from the name.

Sybren
 
M

Michael

Not every name has to fully reflect the named. I mean, Microsoft is
the largest software company on the planet, but no way that you can
guess that from the name.
MICRO computer SOFTware. Seems pretty obvious to me and I'd expect the
same from any tech person.pipi and cheese shop both sound like so-so
names to me. Neither sounds to be especially easy for people to remember
and find when searching using generic half remembered terms. Not really
important though so long as they are easy to find from the Python website.
 
S

Sybren Stuvel

Michael enlightened us with:
MICRO computer SOFTware. Seems pretty obvious to me

Where is the size of the company in that story? The fact that they
make software is rather obvious indeed. Just as obvious as that PYTHON
Cheese Shop has something to do with Python.

Sybren
 
D

Dennis Lee Bieber

Where is the size of the company in that story? The fact that they
make software is rather obvious indeed. Just as obvious as that PYTHON
Cheese Shop has something to do with Python.
If it were always referred to as "the Python Cheese Shop", maybe...
But as the subject of this thread shows, "Python" is commonly dropped --
90% of the references over the past few months have been of the nature
"go to the Cheese Shop"...

The "Python Cheese Shop" is the 10th hit on "Cheese Shop" in Google,
but is the first hit under "Python package". So... off-hand, it is
faster to just google for "Python package" than to be told by someone to
"check the Cheese Shop" (which then still needs to be googled, and found
in a page of links).
--
 
A

A.M. Kuchling

and while you're at it, change "python-dev" to "developers" and
"psf" to "foundation" (or use a title on that link).

I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers" is ambiguous
about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
maybe this is the best option.) "Development Team"?

--amk
 
S

Steven Bethard

A.M. Kuchling said:
I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers" is ambiguous
about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
maybe this is the best option.) "Development Team"?

+1 on Core Development. It's still ambiguous, but less so. And I can't
think of anything better. ;)

STeVe
 
F

Fredrik Lundh

A.M. Kuchling said:
I've changed the PSF link, but am not sure what to do about the
python-dev link. As others have noted, "Developers" is ambiguous
about whether it's for people who develop in Python or who develop
Python itself. "Core Development"? (Used on both perl.org and tcl.tk, so
maybe this is the best option.)

back in the old days, python.org used "core developers" ;-)

"core development" is fine with me.

</F>
 
T

Tim Parkin

Fredrik said:
A.M. Kuchling wrote:




"core development" is fine with me.

</F>

I've tried this out on a test page and I think it works well.. I've also
removed a couple of bits from the left hand nav and moved the style
sheet switcher elsewhere (it probably should be in the help section). I
think the left hand nav is a lot clearer if kept simple.

Tim Parkin
 
T

Terry Hancock

Of course, you're straying so far from the original
thought behind this thread, and that is that the Python
website is using some terms differently than the majority
of people who will eventually use the site would
understand them. The number of people who are brilliant
enough to actually contribute to the development of the
Python language is miniscule compared to the potential
number of programmers out there who could adopt Python as
their language of choice, and thus consider themselves
'Python developers'.

But the usual distinction (on any project web page) is
"User" versus "Developer".

Who is a "user" of Python? That would be you, right? It
would be fairly silly to have a page only for people who
have programs written in Python that they use (they're
*your program*'s users, not *python*'s users).

"Developer", in context, is clearly "one who *develops*
python", not "one who *uses* python to develop programs".

I don't see the ambiguity. I would be confused by the
opposite usage.

However, what you are complaining of is similar to the
situation with Zope, where "user" actually does have a sane
interpretation (basically "designer" or "scripter"), while a
"developer" is someone working on the Zope core. People who
"develop using Zope" are (still, I think) underrepresented
-- there never was a "product developer" or "component
developer" mailing list, I don't think.

In that context, some people use a term like "Core
Developer". It seems a little redundant to me, but perhaps
it would be less ambiguous?
 
T

Tim Parkin

Terry said:
Since I just said almost that independently on an earlier
thread, I guess that makes me +1 on "Core Development" (or
"Core Developers") myself.
Sold to the man in the blue hat!! It's on the server now...

Tim Parkin
 
H

Harald Armin Massa

Tim,
For most people 'developers' would mean people developing *with* python,
not developing python.

one of the richest people on earth did define what developers are:

http://www.ntk.net/ballmer/mirrors.html

people developing with something. So, unless we get /F or BDFL to do an
even more astonishing dance proclaiming that people developing Python
are developers, not people developing WITH Python, I guess you are
quite right.

Harald
 
F

Fredrik Lundh

Paul said:
I was wondering when someone would mention the "developers, developers,
developers" Ballmer song-and-dance incident: clearly, he isn't chanting
about internal Microsoft project teams.

since when is Microsoft a programming language ?

</F>
 
P

Peter Decker

But the usual distinction (on any project web page) is
"User" versus "Developer".

Who is a "user" of Python? That would be you, right? It
would be fairly silly to have a page only for people who
have programs written in Python that they use (they're
*your program*'s users, not *python*'s users).

"Developer", in context, is clearly "one who *develops*
python", not "one who *uses* python to develop programs".

I don't see the ambiguity. I would be confused by the
opposite usage.

After your long explanation, your POV makes some sense. However, no
one should be expected to read such an involved explanation before
understanding common terms.

I am a developer. Yes, I 'use' Python for my development work, but
that doesn't make me any less of a developer. A link for 'developers'
would make me think that it is something I should be interested in,
even if your long explanation was included next to the link (I
wouldn't be likely to read it - I *know* what a developer is).
 
P

Paul Boddie

Fredrik said:
since when is Microsoft a programming language ?

Well, to many a recruiter or middle-manager it almost is a kind of
programming language, given their often vague usage of that and other
product and technology names. But anyway, people who call themselves
"Java developers", for example, who respond to job adverts which read
"Java developers", and who might even surf over to python.org to check
out what this Python thing is all about, might well see the label
"developer" or "developers" and think, "That's me!" And, as if I'd
arranged it to make the point, on java.sun.com the main heading
reads...

Java.sun.com: The Source for Java Developers

I guess java.sun.com isn't just for Sun's internal Java development
team after all.

Paul

P.S. The issue is whether python.org is trying to be the kind of site
java.sun.com is, appealing to developers in general (ie. people who
aren't working on open source language runtime implementations). Yes, I
know: what would non-developers be doing looking at a programming
language Web site? Well, the Java site touches on that as well, in a
brand promotion kind of way - do you remember "Python Powered"?
 
C

Christos Georgiou

(e-mail address removed) wrote:

Cheese (or the lack of cheese) is never silly, Thus the slogan... "The
power of cheese".

Now if you want silliness, then the correct establishment for that is
"The Ministry of Silly Walks". ;)

The Ministry was definitely a Cleese shop.
 

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