Dealing with marketing types...

F

flyingfred0

A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what that
means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).

The developers (including myself) are growing uneasy; the management is
continuing to push their requirements and ignore the engineers. I think
there's still hope, but I'm at a loss for ideas beyond pointing out the
success stories of Python and Zope and language comparisons between
Python and Java.

What experiences have those in the Python community had in these kinds
of situations?
 
E

EP

flyingfred0 said:
A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what
that means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).


Marketing needs a compelling story to tell the customer: why _this_ technology? Java and XML are cheap buzz words to throw around (but not too much buzz left anymore!) What they need is a story, not a bunch of buzz words, but that story needs to fit into the customers' world view, it needs to mean something to the customer.

It's possible that Python/PostgreSQL is a technology combination that represents a winning story, at least in the right marketplaces. Possibly the development team is more technically savvy than the marketers ;-), so try to gently help them understand why the Python/PostgreSQL story is strong.

Faster incremental development of releases ("Customer, no long waits for the new features you want like you have with Java apps. Ou development is fast and agile like your requirements!") might be the kind of perspective that helps your cause. Give the marketing guys "stories" about why the current product implementation is good from a marketing perspective - how (wx)Python/PostgreSQL will make the product unique and noticeable and easier to sell than another Java/XML client server app.

I think that's about the best you can do.

good luck!


Eric
(Psuedo-marketing-type)
 
W

Will McGugan

flyingfred0 said:
A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what that
means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).

The developers (including myself) are growing uneasy; the management is
continuing to push their requirements and ignore the engineers. I think
there's still hope, but I'm at a loss for ideas beyond pointing out the
success stories of Python and Zope and language comparisons between
Python and Java.

What experiences have those in the Python community had in these kinds
of situations?

Marketing types need a bandwagon to jump on. Point out that Google is
used by Google, ILM and NASA.


Will McGugan
 
D

Diez B. Roggisch

Will said:
Marketing types need a bandwagon to jump on. Point out that Google is
used by Google, ILM and NASA.

Certainly a true statement - but I've got the sneaky suspicion that the
first google was supposed to be python.

Diez
 
H

Harald Massa

They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what
that means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords
(not to mention XML).
There is a very cheap solution: Ryan Tomayko debunkes all these myths.
You can google it up, "astronaut architects"

There is a cheap solution: on this years EuroPython (www.europython.org)
there will be a special Slot in Social Skills track dealing with
"Selling Python", giving you a Python Sales Pitch and two more excellent
seminars about persuading people. More than that, in Python in Business
Track we will do slots about using Python for real worthy enterprise
apps which scale and are FULLY buzzword-compatible.

Join us!

Harald Armin Massa
GHUM Harald Massa
perusasion. python. postgresql.
 
P

phil

What experiences have those in the Python community had in these kinds
of situations?
Ive had lots of experience updating my resume and

developing software at home. In Python.

Java is a clumsy kludge. And the java environment has gone to hell.
Managers DO NOT listen to engineers. Marketing people cannot
spell indianere. Sorry, to be so pessimistic.
They are gonna outsource anyway. It's such a sexy buzzword,
how can they resist? How can you have an interesting
management/marketing meeting in which noone knows their
head from their richard, without cool buzzwords?
There are lots of good projects to work on at home.
Get your unemployment then a good waiter job.

Seriously, its cottage industry/small business that drives this
world, not the clowns you are describing. They are losers.
Don't let them drag you down.

If you really want to fight this on their terms, you need
engineering to write a white paper which is absolute horsedooey
but is loaded with stuff they cannot possible comprehend
and arrives at totally unsupported conclusions that you like.
Have all the engineers sign off and get some authoritative
endorsement. This will introduce fear and paralysis at
the mgmt level. Then get a couple happy customers and
lock it in.
 
T

Thomas Bartkus

flyingfred0 said:
A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what that
means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).

The developers (including myself) are growing uneasy; the management is
continuing to push their requirements and ignore the engineers. I think
there's still hope, but I'm at a loss for ideas beyond pointing out the
success stories of Python and Zope and language comparisons between
Python and Java.

What experiences have those in the Python community had in these kinds
of situations?
Sigh!

> The developers (including myself) are growing uneasy; the management is
> continuing to push their requirements and ignore the engineers.

No - they are not pushing "requirements" here.
They are trying to specify the tools that must be used in order to achieve
those requirements. Sort of like me specifying the brand name and type of
tools the repair shop must use when they replace my alternator. Well - not
*quite* like that since I don't enjoy the power of a true employer/employee
relationship with my repair shop. But you get the picture.

It's a given that management has no way to reasonably evaluate on the
technical merits. However, there is one legitimate reason they might want
to do this. It is a non-technical yet nevertheless reasonable consideration.
Management needs to know they have a reliable labor pool to draw upon for
replacements. If that "small software team" decides to jump ship (or asks
for more $, or already makes enough $ to be attractive targets for
replacement) - would they be able hire the replacement expertise to carry
on? Management is *always* looking to lose the high priced creative
geniuses who brought them to the party. I know this from years as an
independent consultant talking to those managers. I can't tell you how many
times they were simply looking to replace the now highly paid guru(s) with
younger/lower cost and more recently - offshored labor.

That, my friend, is the real reason behind the "Java" buzzword. If that's
what your up against, I'm sorry to say that there are simply hoards of Java
underemployeds out there ready to flood human resources with resumes.
Worse - there are hoards of underbidding (lying? scumsucking?) contractors
with dozens of "Java" experts on the bench and no one with Python
experience. I gaurantee that the likes of these are tripping over one
another to get your employers attention.

If this is the case, then management throws up blather like "scalable" and
"enterprise solution" when they really mean they would like to reduce the
cost and increase the reliability of the labor force available to develop
and maintain the system.

If *thats* what's bothering you bunky - I'm sorry to tell you that I am
short on solutions.

BUT understanding the problem is the first step on the path to a solution
:)
Thomas Bartkus
 
T

Thomas Bartkus

fuzzylollipop said:
get your resume in order and start looking . . .

I *hate* the fact that I agree with this post.

I, for one, am hoping for serious discussion to address the problem.
Thomas Bartkus
 
K

Kay Schluehr

flyingfred0 said:
A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what that
means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).

The product managers and technology responsibles ( marketing people do
less technology decisions at least in those german companys I know from
inside ) may not know which is the "best" technology on the market (
who really knows? ), but he clearly knows the discourse about
technology and he is right in not spending to much trusts in the
sensitivities, vanities and the pets of his developers ( Some like
dotNet, others like Java. Some believe that Perl is the hit and others
stick to "Ruby on Rails".)

The developers (including myself) are growing uneasy; the management is
continuing to push their requirements and ignore the engineers. I think
there's still hope, but I'm at a loss for ideas beyond pointing out the
success stories of Python and Zope and language comparisons between
Python and Java.

The difference between J2EE and Zope may be that SUN promotes it's new
major releases half a year before they enter the market ( EJB3 ) while
Zope 3 ( Zope X3 to be accurate ) vanishes for half a year after it is
released ( if you read the docs e.g. the 'roadmap' in the Zope 3 wiki
you may have the impression the project is completely dead ).
What experiences have those in the Python community had in these kinds
of situations?

Python projects are submarines. You have to care not to go up to soon.

Kay
 
T

Terry Hancock

There is a very cheap solution: Ryan Tomayko debunkes all these myths.
You can google it up, "astronaut architects"

Apparently not -- I can't find anything relevant on the first page with the
searches:

astronaut architects
"astronaut architects"
"astronaut architects" "ryan tomayko"
"astronaut architects" tomayko
"astronaut architects" tomko
"ryan tomayko"

However, after a bit of brainstorming, I tried:

"architecture astronauts" "ryan tomayko"

and got this:

http://naeblis.cx/rtomayko/2005/05/28/ibm-poop-heads

which is probably what you meant.

I love that file name. ;-)

Cheers,
Terry
 
T

Terry Hancock

Python projects are submarines. You have to care not to go up to soon.

Ooh, I like that. I'm going to file that under "useful excuses".
Could come in handy! ;-D

Cheers,
Terry
 
F

fuzzylollipop

i think he was actually referering the the architecture astronauts that
Joel Spolskyl was talking about
 
F

fuzzylollipop

I was completely serious, he is _NOT_ going to win this one. He has
already lost. I have been on both sides of this scenario, the "new
guys" were brought in and will win since they are the new "experts from
out of town". There may be some other _VALID_ business reason that
management has already made up their mind to hire these Java people.
Probably because they want to sell the company or merge with someone or
something and having a Java product would make them more attractive.

There are 2 things he can do.

1. Get your resume ready and approach the CEO or whomever and say. Why
is this happening? Since I can guarantee you they have already decided
to port this app to Java.

2. Be quiet, keep his head down, learn Java fasssstt, start agreeing
with the new party line and get on the bandwagon if he really wants to
stay at this company ( I wouldn't )
 
K

Kay Schluehr

fuzzylollipop said:
There are 2 things he can do.

1. Get your resume ready and approach the CEO or whomever and say. Why
is this happening? Since I can guarantee you they have already decided
to port this app to Java.

The CEO is probably indifferent about particular technology issues but
certainly not about money. Trashing a ready to use project ( it does
not seem to be a functional prototype ) is clearly a waste of effort
and time. Offer him to draw an architecture fulfilling the requirements
of the "enterprise solution" reusing existing components that is much
less expensive. Arguing that a Python project definitely needs less
programmers than the Java counterpart ( which is very cost effective
because you need less management and administration to lead them -
remember that a programmer is always cheap compared to a manager ). A
new ambitious manager wants to enforce changes. That's part of the game
and one has to assume this.

Remember also that there is not only a lot of hype and buzz around Java
technologies but one can also spread adjectives like "agile" in the
debate and buzz back ( doing politics ). There's still a lot to exploit
in this direction: the "agile" company/department relies on lightweight
methodologies, technologies, languages, thinking, eating, drinking and
pissing.

O.K. if the boss is nervous, carefull and weak and goes directed by
it's servants one may be off-chance.

Kay
 
A

Aahz

A small software team (developers, leads and even the manager when he's
had time) has been using (wx)Python/PostgreSQL for over 2 years and
developed a successful 1.0 release of a client/server product.

A marketing/product manager has brought in additional management and
"architecture" experts to propose moving the entire thing to a Java
(application server) platform for the next release. They want a
"scalable, enterprise solution" (though they don't really know what that
means) and are going crazy throwing around the Java buzzwords (not to
mention XML).

Point out that pushing this means they're almost certainly going to lose
at least some of their development team, which means the next release is
going to start from ground zero without the necessary expertise. Even
if that doesn't happen, switching to Java is going to take much more time
than improving the current product:

http://www.JoelOnSoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html
 
D

Drazen Gemic

Ive had lots of experience updating my resume and

developing software at home. In Python.

Java is a clumsy kludge. And the java environment has gone to hell.

I am a freelance developer and I prefer to do job in Java over anything
else. I love Python, and it is my favourite language, but there are some
problems.

With Java I depend very little on customers IT staff, sysadmins, etc. If
I need additional functionality in form library, extension, whatever, all
I need is to drop another JAR in, and that does it.

With Python, the situation is different. Often, some kind of modules are
required to be compiled, or packages installed. Generaly, I do not have sufficient
privileges on customers system to do that. IT personell might be willing
and capable to do that, and might be not. There could be some
inter-department politics and/or friction involved at customers side
which may turn into serious obstacle.

Thnks, but I stick with Java. And considering Jython in the future.

DG
 
T

tom

I was completely serious, he is _NOT_ going to win this one. He has
already lost. I have been on both sides of this scenario, the "new guys"
were brought in and will win since they are the new "experts from out of
town".

Not only do I take you seriously - I agree!

I also have been on both sides of this scenario although my take on it is
slightly different. It's not so much the "experts from out of town" as it
is the tendency to dump the guy(s) that brought them to the party.

The sequence goes like this:
1) When there is little or no money to be made, you start out with an
implied status as a partner. This means you work long + extra hours for
little pay on the promise that you will be rewarded when/if success comes.

2) Then the product gets out the door and it's more long hours with little
pay. Much massaging and tweaking and still little money incoming.

3) Success & money start to roll in. Now your status drops from partner to
hired hand. An overpaid hired hand at that. Now that the heavy lifting is
done, managment is wondering whether they need to actually reward the
guy(s) who brought them to the party. The rational parts of their brains
shut down while every fiber of their larcenous beings wants them to
believe they can now dispense with the high priced talent (you!) for some
low bucks commodity labor. There scads of outsourcing firms tripping over
one another to sell them the latter.
There may be some other _VALID_ business reason that management has
already made up their mind to hire these Java people. Probably because
they want to sell the company or merge with someone or something and
having a Java product would make them more attractive.

Yes, there is a possible _VALID_ reason. That would be the perception,
probably accurate, that a technology like Java will shelter them from
total dependency on some individual developer (you!). In other words,
there is a greater likelihood that they can find replacement talent should
they need it. Thats the optimistic view. More often it sinks to the
sleazy when they decide to stiff the original guys who did all the extra
work up front. If they can replace them, there will be no need to "pay
off" on the extra work they did up front.

I have had this happen to me as an employee. Later, as an outside
consultant, I was frequently disgusted to realize how many manager/owners
were merely seeking to avoid the payoff for the guys who went the extra
mile to give them a profitable product. Tis business in the USA, sad to
say.
There are 2 things he can do.

1. Get your resume ready and approach the CEO or whomever and say. Why
is this happening? Since I can guarantee you they have already decided
to port this app to Java.

Resume ready is certainly wise and I concur with your gaurantee.
2. Be quiet, keep his head down, learn Java fasssstt, start agreeing
with the new party line and get on the bandwagon if he really wants to
stay at this company ( I wouldn't )

I disgree here. The party line is nothing but a cover. The goal is to
break the dependency on the guru(s) who did the developement or worse,
outright replacement. The likelihood of staying on is slim and will
become increasingly unpleasant unless the employer is so lacking in
concience as to fire him outright.

Let me add an Item #3 -
If you have some entrepeneurial savvy and can keep your emotions out of
it tou can simply tell them you have decided strike out on your own and
tell them that you will be available. They will be happy to hear you are
leaving and happier still to hear you can be available for backup.
Their goals and fears are addressed at the same time. AND there is a very
high possibility that they will *need* you at a later date for which you
can charge them dearly.

That last item #3 has actually worked for me with (2) prior employers.
I did have to eat my indignation and keep it friendly but it did pay off
in the end.
Thomas Bartkus
 

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