font-size: 100%;

[jamslam]

Hey,

I have seen many people here suggest to use font-size: 100%;. I myself am
using font-size: 80%;, and it's going good. If I use 100%, the text comes up
way too big.

I already know what you're going to say, let the user define their text
size. I am willing to be that more than likely most people don't know how to
do that, as simple as it might be. So they come to your page, with the font
size set to medium (or default, whatever), and they see the font enormously
huge, then they leave.

Can anyone provide me some insight on this topic?

Thanks.

-jamslam

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

jamslam pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:

Hey,

I have seen many people here suggest to use font-size: 100%;. I myself am
using font-size: 80%;, and it's going good. If I use 100%, the text comes up
way too big.

If it is too big for you, you need to adjust your *own* browser's display
size to something a bit smaller.

I already know what you're going to say, let the user define their text
size.

Isn't the object to let the visitor be in control?

I am willing to be that more than likely most people don't know how to
do that, as simple as it might be. So they come to your page, with the font
size set to medium (or default, whatever), and they see the font enormously
huge, then they leave.

Can anyone provide me some insight on this topic?

If you are really concerned, why not put a note on your main page
describing how to adjust sizes?

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:

jamslam pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:

If it is too big for you, you need to adjust your *own* browser's display
size to something a bit smaller.


Isn't the object to let the visitor be in control?


If you are really concerned, why not put a note on your main page
describing how to adjust sizes?

Aha! Having another look at your site and style sheet, I know why you
think you need 80%. It's Verdana.

body {
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
font-family: verdana, arial, serif;
font-size: 80%;
}

Dump the Verdana and all will be well.

Read this post from Steve Pugh:
http://groups.google.com/groups?
q=why+verdana+is+bad+choice&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
&selm=n96sevgkg1oflie33nb57d6um8o5qjdo7h%404ax.com&rnum=3

 

[rf]

Hey,

I have seen many people here suggest to use font-size: 100%;. I myself am
using font-size: 80%;, and it's going good. If I use 100%, the text comes up
way too big.

I already know what you're going to say, let the user define their text
size. I am willing to be that more than likely most people don't know how to
do that, as simple as it might be. So they come to your page, with the font
size set to medium (or default, whatever), and they see the font enormously
huge, then they leave.

Can anyone provide me some insight on this topic?

<grin/>
This has been discussed here and elsewhere many many times.

The consensus is that if *you* think the font is too large then change
*your* settings. I have my settings just how I want them.

If you specify 80% in your web page I will immediately increase *my* size by
120% or so, putting the font back to the size I like it. The only thing you
have done by specifying 80% is to annoy me. It has no bearing on the actual
size that *I* read at.

Search the archives. Here is a good start:

http://www.google.com.au/groups?q=font+100+80++group:alt.html*

(watch that trailing *, it's supposed to be there)

The very first hit (view the entire thread, it's amusing) is me having a,
well, discussion with a Mr West on exactly what you are doing.

What would happen if a certain TV producer were to decide that the volume
for *his* show were to be 80% lower than everybody else's? I suspect the
standard viewer woule grumble a bit as they reached for the remote to turn
the sound up. Then along comes an ad and they grumble more when they have to
turn it back down. Back to the show and they cannot hear it. Either they
will crumble mightily as they turn the sound back up or they will press the
other button on their remote, the one that changes channels.

Cheers
Richard.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

Beauregard T. Shagnasty pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:



Aha! Having another look at your site and style sheet, I know why you
think you need 80%. It's Verdana.

body {
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
font-family: verdana, arial, serif;
font-size: 80%;
}

Dump the Verdana and all will be well.

Yeah, Verdana is -- at least in my opinion -- a nice looking screen
font, especially for websites, but it is sadly not very practical,
because its typeface is too large.
If you intend to use it, I would suggest to write the entire site in a
font like Helvetica or Arial and ensure that it looks good with those
fonts, and then add Verdana.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

<grin/>
This has been discussed here and elsewhere many many times.

The consensus is that if *you* think the font is too large then change
*your* settings. I have my settings just how I want them.

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

If you specify 80% in your web page I will immediately increase *my* size by
120% or so, putting the font back to the size I like it. The only thing you
have done by specifying 80% is to annoy me. It has no bearing on the actual
size that *I* read at.

Search the archives. Here is a good start:

http://www.google.com.au/groups?q=font+100+80++group:alt.html*

(watch that trailing *, it's supposed to be there)

The very first hit (view the entire thread, it's amusing) is me having a,
well, discussion with a Mr West on exactly what you are doing.

What would happen if a certain TV producer were to decide that the volume
for *his* show were to be 80% lower than everybody else's? I suspect the
standard viewer woule grumble a bit as they reached for the remote to turn
the sound up. Then along comes an ad and they grumble more when they have to
turn it back down. Back to the show and they cannot hear it. Either they
will crumble mightily as they turn the sound back up or they will press the
other button on their remote, the one that changes channels.

The difference is that practically every idiot out there knows how to
control the volume of a TV-set, whereas comparatively few users know how
to control the font settings of their browsers.

However, I would agree that for regular text, it's probably best to
leave well enough alone in most cases and don't change the font size.

 

[rf]

rf wrote:

[question about specifying font-size: 80%]

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

Please cite a study that supports this assertion of "the majority".

Cheers
Richard.

 

[rf]

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

Nicolai, please disregard my prior reply to you on this matter. On sober
reflection I determine that you are, in fact, arguing on *my* side, that is:
do not specify font size at all.

Browsers, out of the box and with no further specification of font size
(either by the author or the user) display text at a size roughly the same
size as an out of the box operating system's "system" font. [1]

If then, as you say, the majority of viewers out there don't know how to
change *their* font size then why should an author take it upon herself to
reduce the font on a web page to 80% (or whatever) of the size of the
standard "system" font.

The viewer looks at windows explorer, the task bar, the icons on her
desktop, the browser menu bar and tool bar. All the text is the same size.
The content of the browser canvas is 80% smaller. Why?

Perhaps because jamslam used verdana as a font.

Cheers
Richard.

 

[George Self]

Yeah, Verdana is -- at least in my opinion -- a nice looking screen
font, especially for websites, but it is sadly not very practical,
because its typeface is too large.
If you intend to use it, I would suggest to write the entire site in a
font like Helvetica or Arial and ensure that it looks good with those
fonts, and then add Verdana.

You may also want to keep in mind that not all of us have Verdana on our
computer. I use Linux and Verdana is not one of the fonts on my machine.
If you are designing your site to have maximum readership, then choose
multiple fonts - but be sure to test your site with each font. If you had
chosen Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif you would have noticed that Verdana was
large, but at that same setting the Arial and Sans-Serif would be small
(I'm assuming this since I don't have Verdana to actual test with). I
suppose it doesn't matter much, but I prefer Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif
since they tend to produce similar results on Linux, Mac, or Windows
systems.

 

[Malcolm Collett]

which I use for my own sites, looks just fine with IE set to medium.

Is there a difference between specifying font-size:100% and just not
specifying a font size at all? In IE, I can't notice a difference between
the two.

Malcolm

 

[Beauregard T. Shagnasty]

Malcolm Collett pounced upon this pigeonhole and pronounced:

Is there a difference between specifying font-size:100% and just not
specifying a font size at all? In IE, I can't notice a difference between
the two.

There is supposed to be a bug in IE that screws up the display if no size
is given.

Someone suggested awhile ago to actually use {font-size: 101% } as earlier
versions of Opera also misinterpreted the CSS.

Here's one reference I found:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=bug+font+size+101%&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8
&oe=UTF-8&selm=urhtevgj46ka2h2pevjfghsku2qji035as%404ax.com&rnum=1>

 

[Toby A Inkster]

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

So include on your website a link:

<a href="fontsize.html">adjust font size</a>

On fontsize.html, include a brief explanation of why the font is the size
it is (e.g. I can't possibly know how good your eye sight is, how large
your screen is, how far you are sitting from it, etc -- so I have decided
to let you choose the font size yourself...) and some instructions (e.g.
Here is how to change the font size if you are using... Internet Explorer
....Netscape ...Opera).

An example of such a page is here:

http://www.greytower.net/en/help/font.html

Although I think this goes overboard on the browser instructions. If you
just cover IE5+, the latest Netscape and the latest Opera and that should
be enough. Add at the end "If your browser is not listed, please consult
the Help files that were supplied with it" or something like that to the
end.

 

[Isofarro]

I already know what you're going to say, let the user define their text
size. I am willing to be that more than likely most people don't know how
to do that, as simple as it might be.

So correspondingly then, users won't know how to _increase_ the default font
size of their browsers. So what are they supposed to do when your preferred
font-size is too small for them to read comfortably?

If the basis of your argument rests on the belief that users don't know how
to change their font size that only _strengthens_ the argument to leave the
font-size at 100% - it will be readable to a larger percentage of your
users than 80%.

 

[nj_dilettante]

rf wrote:

[question about specifying font-size: 80%]

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum
does too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the
majority of websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue
that you can change the font settings of your browser.

Please cite a study that supports this assertion of "the majority".

Cheers
Richard.

Not a study - just an anecdotal example. It's not just casual websufers who
don't realize that web text size can be adjusted. I had a elderly client
who didn't want to purchase a laptop because he couldn't read web text. It
seems a salesperson at a local computer superstore told him the web text
size absolutely COULD NOT be increased! (he did, however, get the regular
windows text resize question right)

 

[Adrienne]

rf wrote:

[question about specifying font-size: 80%]

The consensus is that if *you* think the font is too large then
change *your* settings. I have my settings just how I want them.


Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum
does too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the
majority of websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that
you can change the font settings of your browser.

Please cite a study that supports this assertion of "the majority".

Cheers
Richard.

Not a study - just an anecdotal example. It's not just casual
websufers who don't realize that web text size can be adjusted. I had
a elderly client who didn't want to purchase a laptop because he
couldn't read web text. It seems a salesperson at a local computer
superstore told him the web text size absolutely COULD NOT be
increased! (he did, however, get the regular windows text resize
question right)

In a way, the salesperson was right. If the font size is set in pixels,
and the user has not said to ignore font sizes, IE will not resize. I
tried to convince a former employer this was a valid reason not to use
pixels and fixed width design, but the answer I got back was that if
someone couldn't see it, then <horror>they could change their screen
resolution</horror>.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

You may also want to keep in mind that not all of us have Verdana on our
computer. I use Linux and Verdana is not one of the fonts on my machine.
If you are designing your site to have maximum readership, then choose
multiple fonts - but be sure to test your site with each font. If you had
chosen Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif you would have noticed that Verdana was
large, but at that same setting the Arial and Sans-Serif would be small
(I'm assuming this since I don't have Verdana to actual test with). I
suppose it doesn't matter much, but I prefer Arial, Helvetica, Sans-Serif
since they tend to produce similar results on Linux, Mac, or Windows
systems.

Of course, one should always choose a very general font declaration such
as "Sans-Serif" or "Serif" at the end and ensure that the site is
legible in common, regular fonts.

 

[Nick Theodorakis]

rf wrote:
[...]

The consensus is that if *you* think the font is too large then change
*your* settings. I have my settings just how I want them.

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

If you think the user does not know how to change the font settings,
then that is even a stronger argument for the author not reduce the
font size for body text. What if the user thinks that the default is
already marginally too small and doesn't know how to change it?

Nick

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

rf wrote:

[question about specifying font-size: 80%]

Yes, _you_ do. And the vast majoritiy of the readers of this forum does
too. But the point is, as has been mentioned by Jamslam, the majority of
websurfers out there doesn't have the slightest clue that you can change
the font settings of your browser.

Please cite a study that supports this assertion of "the majority".

I cannot of hand anymore than I could cite a study that supports the
assertion that the majority of users out there simply do a "default
install" when they install new software, yet my own personal experience
-- and I'm personally familiar with many people who regularly work on
PCs -- tells me that it is in fact so. If you have a study at hand that
suggests otherwise? I wouldn't mind to be proven wrong in this matter at
all.

 

[Nicolai P. Zwar]

rf wrote:

Nicolai, please disregard my prior reply to you on this matter.

Whoops, too late, Richard. Sorry.

On sober
reflection I determine that you are, in fact, arguing on *my* side, that is:
do not specify font size at all.

Not unless you have a good reason, in any case. (A better reason than
using Verdana, that is.) I would say indeed that most of the time it's
best to not specify a font size for your regular text. That way, those
people who actually have their font size changed for various reasons
will see the font in a size to their liking, and all other users will
see the font in a size they are used to.

 

[jamslam]

So correspondingly then, users won't know how to _increase_ the default font
size of their browsers. So what are they supposed to do when your preferred
font-size is too small for them to read comfortably?

If the basis of your argument rests on the belief that users don't know how
to change their font size that only _strengthens_ the argument to leave the
font-size at 100% - it will be readable to a larger percentage of your
users than 80%.

Hmmm, all really interesting points. I appreciate all the insight. I'll
definitely consider revising my way of thinking on this subject

-jamslam