Java and avoiding software piracy?

R

Roedy Green

You buy, and it works forever, assuming you don't change or upgrade
the hardware or OS too much

That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades
your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility.

I do hardware upgrades of some sort at least once a year. So that
gives me LESS of a guarantee than if I rented the software for a year.

The problem is:

1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The
assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like
it, you are lying.

2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly
through a hardware or OS upgrade.


With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
period of time. The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
to stop working. During that time I have access to all the bug fixes.
My costs are laid out in advance.

As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for
an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for
a defective light bulb.
 
R

Roedy Green

Not at all. The rental model makes no more guarantees about long-term
upgrades, the company staying in business or continuing to work on the
product, etc. than the sale model does.

Yes, but you can cancel your rental contract before the vendor has all
the money you planned to give him in your lifetime. With purchase,
you trust him, and give it to him all up front. You have no leverage.
 
J

Joe Attardi

For the love of God, Twisted, nobody is censoring your posts and
there's nothing wrong with Google Groups. I and countless others in
here have absolutely no problems posting through Google Groups.

For everyone else - this seems to be a common tactic of Twisted. He
starts complaining about his posts not showing up then starts babbling
about someone specifically targeting him and threatening all kinds of
badness to the mysterious person responsible. This time the suspect
seems to be Oliver Wong.

What exactly to you intend to do Twisted, to make it "curtains for his
net access"? I'd love to hear how you are going to take out someone's
net access - forever!
YOU HAVE VIOLATED THE COMPUTER FRAUD AND ABUSE ACT AND ***WILL*** BE
IDENTIFIED AND PROSECUTED IF YOU DO NOT COMPLY WITH ALL OF THESE
DEMANDS. ACKNOWLEDGE IMMEDIATELY.

One post ago you were threatening to (illegaly) take out someone's
Internet access "forever". Now you are threatening prosecution? Is
this irony? I don't know.

But seriously Twisted, why do you have to turn every argument on
usenet into some kind of personal conspiracy against you? There are no
l337 h4x0rz hacking Google Groups to silence your message. You sound
more and more ridiculous whenever you suggest such a thing, especially
with your ALL CAPS EMPTY THREATS.

Not to mention, going ahead and knocking out someone's net access
(assuming you somehow can, which I'm sure is a near zero probability)
is very stupid after publicly threatening to do so on Usenet.
 
J

Joe Attardi

For more than the childish distortion of Oliver's name, your post is silly.
That is his super-elite tactic, Lew.. I've been called
"Retardi" (which I was called in the second grade, haha!) and now
"Attacki".
You take it a step further with your paranoid blame game - no one is
trying to censor you. Grow up and get over yourself.
There was a huge flame war a few months ago where he did this very
same thing.
 
J

Joe Attardi

In any case, selective propagation delays, selective routing,
selective nuking, or selective whatever, it smells like a rat. After
all, whatever it is is selective -- and selective based on content,
rather than on timing, author, newsgroup, or any other such thing.

And, of course, I don't have any real evidence that it appeared
anywhere but Google Groups and I do have some circumstantial evidence
that it failed to leave their local net (that I specifically looked
for it on a non-atypical news server elsewhere and it had not shown up
after eight full hours).

If you're so goddamn unhappy with the free Usenet service being
provided to you by Google, you have two choices:
(1) Get over yourself and cough up a little money for higher quality
Usenet access.
(2) Stop bitching and appreciate the free access Google provides.
 
A

Andreas Leitgeb

Twisted said:
1. This occurs moving files within a single logical drive.
ok, then there must be some other/further reasons...
2. - 5. [reasons why it is to be considered a bug]

I didn't deny that. I thought my speculations could help Oliver to
reproduce these symptoms, nothing else. Because I don't do this
Windows crap myself, I also couldn't verify these tricks.

You seem to talk a lot about what should be free, and then you
seem to use (and complain about) software that actually *has*
free and better alternatives ...
Probably because you know the bugs and the lovers turn a blind eye to
the same.
Those things I said I knew about windows are actually only rarely related
with bugs. I've seen long-time windows users who hadn't even known
that you could switch windows with Alt+Tab, and rather selected their
just-recently used window from some group in the taskbar whenever they
wanted to return to it.
Or that one can put a shortcut of applications that were installed
deeply nested in the Start->Applications-menu into the taskbar for
quick access.
 
T

Twisted

That's the theory, but in practice every few weeks Microsoft upgrades
your OS.. At any point they could introduce an incompatibility.

And in practise, how often does that actually happen? Here's a hint:
in all the years I've been using WinXP I've not had an MS update break
any third-party software seriously. If worse comes to worst you roll
back the update or use System Restore and freeze at that patch level,
if the third-party app is mission-critical and there's no update
available for it.

Software as a "rental" won't help this. You'd still be stuck until the
software vendor fixed it. You wouldn't be able to avoid or roll back
the problem update either. More generally you'd have much less control
over your hardware and much less freedom to administer your machine as
you wished; more decisions would be made for you by vendors that have
ulterior motives. They will make gratuitous changes that force their
hands deeper into your pockets once they have that level of control,
because the few existing examples actually do.
1. there is no guarantee the software will work when you buy. The
assumption is, once you have the executable, if you claim not to like
it, you are lying.

And a rental would not also have no warranty and no representations of
fitness-for-purpose? In a dream world maybe.
2. there in no guarantee it will continue to work, particularly
through a hardware or OS upgrade.

And a rental company would never dream of screwing its users over by
just up and closing up shop one day? It would never push a buggy
update at its users that was a showstopper? Yeah right. At least with
normal software, if they ship a buggy update, the first users to get
burned by it warn everyone else and the rest don't install that
update. In your dream world, they have no choice -- instead of being
able to avoid the buggy update, all they can do is treat the warning
as a tornado warning and back up everything and hunker down until it's
over and the damage is done. Assuming they can back up anything,
because the data may not be really under their control anymore!
With renting, we are agreeing the software will work for a given
period of time.

Are we? I've never seen any software company agree that software will
work. Ever. I don't expect that to change anytime soon either.
The agreement can be cancelled, and the program made
to stop working. During that time I have access to all the bug fixes.
My costs are laid out in advance.

Why not let you keep using it, but not get updates? That doesn't cost
them anything. It's pure greed!
As I said before, the most outrageous practice is to make me pay for
an upgrade to get a bug fixed. That is like making you pay extra for
a defective light bulb.

Well, the way I see it, software "rental" means you pay every month
for a bug to get fixed EVEN WHEN THERE WERE NO BUGS FIXED THAT MONTH
instead of only when there actually were bugs fixed. I don't see that
as being an advantage to anyone except the vendor.

But then I already know where your sympathies lie. You're
contemplating being such a vendor, not being one of the hapless users
screwed by such a vendor, and that is why you are pushing something
that would harm 99.99% of the population and benefit only 0.01%.
 
T

Twisted

Yes, but you can cancel your rental contract before the vendor has all
the money you planned to give him in your lifetime. With purchase,
you trust him, and give it to him all up front. You have no leverage.

Ah, but you are forgetting to do the math. If I pay $200 for some
software up front, I get anywhere from months to years to forever of
functionality out of it for that $200.

If I pay $50 a month for some "rental" BS, I get only four months from
my first $200.

As for leverage, WHAT leverage? I pay $50 a month for internet service
and another for landline service but I sure the **** don't have any
leverage with the phone company! If they want to change things in a
way that screws over half their customers they just go ahead and do
it, and people grit their teeth and pay for another month. For the
simple reason that a) they try to lock people into long-term contracts
and b) you really get by these days without a phone and broadband, not
in the developed world. Oh and c) they're the only provider of the
phone and one of only two providers of the broadband in the area.

Software vendors "renting" will obviously be worse, because they'll be
the only vendor period. At least the phone company has the cable
company to compete (or just form an uneasy alliance) with in the
matter of broadband service. A rental Windows would mean just
Microsoft, with no competition, and of course they would do whatever
they wanted to do and people would still have an enormous barrier to
switching away. Worse I'm guessing than they do already, with non-
rental Windows.

And of course, rental Windows might sneakily put your own files (or a
decryption key now needed to use them) on a Microsoft server
somewhere, so quitting the Microsoft habit would then mean wipe and
start over from scratch.

You keep ignoring this particular point. SOFTWARE RENTAL NECESSARILY
MEANS THE VENDOR STICKS THEIR GRUBBY MITS INTO MY FUCKING COMPUTER! At
minimum for enforcement purposes. ONCE THEY DO THAT AND HAVE ME
PLUGGED INTO THEIR SERVERS 24/7 ANYWAY WHAT'S TO STOP THEM TAKING MY
DATA HOSTAGE TOO? THEY HAVE EVERY REASON TO, SO DO YOU REALLY THINK
THEY'LL JUST DECIDE TO BE NICE AND NOT DO IT ANYWAY?

If you really do think that, check yourself into the nearest nuthouse
pronto, before you get parted from your money; you will be better off
letting someone trustworthy in your close family manage it for you.
Believe me.
 
T

Twisted

(1) the device isn't patentable (it might be software, insufficiently
novel, a fairly obvious tweak of prior art, or no prototype has
been built and demonstrated).

Tell this to the software patenters out there.
(you can only patent a functioning device, not the theory behind it).

That too.
 
T

Twisted

Ahem, I think you'll find that a patent can only be issued to a named
individual or individuals. They may assign it to another person or
organization if they don't have the resources to develop it past the
prototype stage, but thats a separate commercial transaction that should
recompense the inventor(s) for parting with their invention.

Oh, no. PLEASE tell me you don't believe all that "patents and
copyrights serve the interests of the inventors and artists" bullshit!

Inventors constantly get ripped off. Most artists are lucky to see a
thin dime of commission of some sort, and zero royalties. The vast
majority of all the money paying copyright and patent royalties and
licensing goes to CORPORATIONS NOT INDIVIDUALS. And the vast majority
of that lines the silk-lined pockets of a small number of very
expensive suits, without much trickling down to the rank-and-file
employees. Who get sacked and sacked as more and more divisions get
divested or outsourced or merge and the executives concentrate the
money stream ever more upon just themselves.

I'm not convinced that "IP" law ever was, really, about anything but
greed. Even if it used to be sincerely for the benefit of individual
inventors and artists, and the employees of innovative firms, those
days are obviously long gone.

Read that Against Monopoly link and take the blinders off, please...
 
T

Twisted

Just because a law may benefit a big corporation does not mean it won't
benefit the individual. When it comes to software, copyright does benefit
the individual(s) who created it.

Fairy tales told to comfort small children and dupe the unwary into
not opposing the system.
Every once in a while, you run across
someone who is making a living off their own personal software. No, they
are not household names making billions of dollars like Gates. But, they
have a product, that they market, and sell.

And they would probably make just as much if people could freely clone
their product. Some of them actually do (let people freely clone their
product, and make just as much).

And the vast majority of copyright royalty money goes to people that
are rich already, not to poor starving artists and inventors or
whatever ailed them in the version of the fairy tale you were told.
I know a very well known Origami
author who makes a living off his books. Without copyright, people could just
post them on the net for everyone to steal, and he wouldn't make nearly as much
money.

Steal is a strong word considering nobody is being deprived of any
property they owned. As for "wouldn't make nearly as much money" would
their books still be in the black? If so, I don't see justifying
banning unauthorized copies. And of course his "development" cost
burden would be shared as people would contribute variations and other
new ideas he could then freely incorporate into his next book too.
Making a backup of your own CD for your own use is not stealing.

Making any copy for any use is not stealing.
Keep telling yourself that - but you are wrong. If the copyright
does not allow for you to freely copy the work without payment, and you do,
you are stealing. You are a thief - end of story.

Authoritarian pig. Just because the lawyers say something does not
make it so. Under no theory of natural justice can I steal from person
A by conducting a consensual transaction halfway around the world with
person C != A.

And in fact the lawyers don't say that. The technical term they use is
"copyright infringement", and even so it's bogus, a victimless
"crime". For tens of thousands of years humanity got on fine without
artificial monopolies on things like stories and inventions. Creating
such things is about as unnatural as it gets, and in no way shape or
form does it make sense to consider it to be morally wrong.

But you appear to be an authoritarian -- the type who believes that
disobeying authority is wrong, even if the authority itself is wrong
and clearly so, or worse is corrupt and self-serving, *knowingly*
wrong or lying, instead of acting to serve your best interests.

Your attitude is, to put it bluntly, unAmerican in fact -- because not
questioning authority is unAmerican.
 
T

Twisted

If you're so goddamn unhappy with the free Usenet service being
provided to you by Google, you have two choices:
(1) Get over yourself and cough up a little money for higher quality
Usenet access.

I refuse. I had higher quality Usenet access at my existing level of
payment before. I will not start paying extra for what I used to have
for what I'm paying now, when there is no justification for paying
extra (costs have gone down, not up).
(2) Stop bitching

No, Your Royal Highness. Yeah, I know, high treason, yadda yadda
yadda. If you're really the Emperor of Usenet you should be able to
enforce your Royal Decrees from On High. I strongly suspect you cannot
in fact do so.

GG is a steaming turdpile.

Hmm, it wasn't censored. Looks like you can take off that crown now,
King Nothing.
 
T

Twisted

For the love of God, Twisted, nobody is censoring your posts and
there's nothing wrong with Google Groups. I and countless others in
here have absolutely no problems posting through Google Groups.

Then explain why my posting failed to propagate -- and a second
largely-identical one also did, while nothing else did. A bug wouldn't
be that selective. (They are still missing at the NNTP server I check
these things now - 30 hours after the first one and 26 hours after the
second one was sent. I think it's safe to say that it is no mere
delay; the postings are just gone. AFAICT they exist on GG only and
never left GG's servers.)
What exactly to you intend to do Twisted, to make it "curtains for his
net access"? I'd love to hear how you are going to take out someone's
net access - forever!

Well, if he has hacked Google or someplace to block the sending of
news messages with specific content (say, a paragraph from his own
post to block any reply quoting that paragraph and thereby attempt by
cheating to have the last word) then that violates the Computer Fraud
and Abuse Act. Kevin Mitnick was sentenced to jail and afterward a
long period with a court ordered ban on network access for computer
hacking. So it isn't hard to see how Oliver could suffer the same fate
if indeed he is the guilty party.
One post ago you were threatening to (illegaly) take out someone's
Internet access "forever". Now you are threatening prosecution? Is
this irony? I don't know.

Illegally? Oh no, you misunderstand. Kevin Mitnick's loss of access
was done about as legally as it could be -- by court order! So it
would be for Oliver Wrong if he proved to have maliciously tampered
with my network traffic in violation of antihacking laws.
But seriously Twisted, why do you have to turn every argument on
usenet into some kind of personal conspiracy against you?

I didn't. Oliver (or whoever attacked those two postings) did by
stooping to illegal methods to muzzle an opponent in debate.
There are no l337 h4x0rz hacking Google Groups to silence your message.

Oh, so whatever code suppressed propagation very selectively for just
that one message and any repost attempts just magically wrote and
installed itself without any human assistance?

If so, why aren't we all living in virtual worlds as uploaded
superbeings now? Because that scenario would seem to imply the
achievement of strong AI.

Barring evidence of strong AI having been achieved I will assume that
the code that attacked my postings did not write and install all by
its lonesome without human assistance. And that means that human
assistant(s) to this malicious code exist and are sorely in need of
being arrested and charged with something.
Not to mention, going ahead and knocking out someone's net access
(assuming you somehow can, which I'm sure is a near zero probability)
is very stupid after publicly threatening to do so on Usenet.

Let's see. I threaten to knock out an as-yet-not-positively-identified
hacker's net access. Subsequently a judge hands down a court order
barring the hacker (now a convicted defendant) from use of the net for
a very long time. Would the police then think that I somehow hacked
his net access because he no longer had any? Somehow I doubt it.
 
T

Twisted

That is his super-elite tactic, Lew.. I've been called
"Retardi" (which I was called in the second grade, haha!) and now
"Attacki".

Actually it's simply appropriate. Since you only ever post to this
newsgroup to flame someone named Twisted and never to actually discuss
Java programming or to do anything else for that matter, you do seem
to be very ... attacky. :p
There was a huge flame war a few months ago where he did this very
same thing.

Yes, and as I recall, you started it. Or at least played a major role
in helping to fan the flames. So did Oliver Wrong. Now I see both of
you at it again, posting attack responses fairly indiscriminately
anywhere there's a posting by "Twisted", and I'm seeing odd and
suspicious message disappearances again, of which none occurred during
peacetime, making it seem rather unlikely that they are just glitches
with coincidental timing.
 
N

nebulous99

You seem to talk a lot about what should be free, and then you
seem to use (and complain about) software that actually *has*
free and better alternatives ...

Half my data and other software would be useless, or at least require
some kind of massive conversion effort. Also, migration would mean
getting the older b0x set up properly, which means repairing or
replacing the PSU (its fan died), so I could wipe and install on it,
then move data to it. And of course there'd be a period of low
productivity from learning curve, likely quite steep given the
reputation unix and its derivatives have in that area.
Those things I said I knew about windows are actually only rarely related
with bugs. I've seen long-time windows users who hadn't even known
that you could switch windows with Alt+Tab, and rather selected their
just-recently used window from some group in the taskbar whenever they
wanted to return to it.

Just non-powerusers then?
Or that one can put a shortcut of applications that were installed
deeply nested in the Start->Applications-menu into the taskbar for
quick access.

Blech -- I've dumped the quick launch bar entirely; taskbar real
estate is scarce enough as it is to blow chunks of it on infrequent
tasks like launching apps. I use the start menu left hand side to keep
"quick-launch" shortcuts.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Twisted said:
Tell this to the software patenters out there.


That too.
The USPO may be broken, but the rest aren't. There are no software
patents in the EU despite US pressure.
 
M

Martin Gregorie

Twisted said:
Oh, no. PLEASE tell me you don't believe all that "patents and
copyrights serve the interests of the inventors and artists" bullshit!
If they worked as advertised I think that would be so.

Read your history: see how badly Charles Dickens got burnt in America.
When he was writing America didn't have any copyright laws while the
rest of the civilized world did. He got ripped off left, right and
center in America and never saw a penny from all the books sold there.
That was a gross injustice.
Inventors constantly get ripped off. Most artists are lucky to see a
thin dime of commission of some sort, and zero royalties. The vast
majority of all the money paying copyright and patent royalties and
licensing goes to CORPORATIONS NOT INDIVIDUALS. And the vast majority
of that lines the silk-lined pockets of a small number of very
expensive suits, without much trickling down to the rank-and-file
employees.
>
You're right there. I'd like to see copyright and patents owned by the
creators, made non-transferable and terminating with the creator's
death. I think that would best reflect their original intent.

Its never going to happen, though.
I'm not convinced that "IP" law ever was, really, about anything but
greed.
>
I think it was but it got subverted very soon.

The companies that exist by exploiting patents for items they didn't
invent and don't make are an obscenity. Same goes for people who own
copyright for art they didn't create and don't promote but merely rake
in cash they didn't earn. Stand up and take a bow, Michael Jackson.
 
N

nebulous99

If they worked as advertised I think that would be so.

I don't. They bog creativity down with the need to ask every possible
source for permission and possibly pay that source off or just get
told "no" far more than they promote it.

Copyright and patent look attractive to the first generation that
implement it, because they get all the claimed benefits and none of
the costs. The next generation has to pay the first generation for the
privilege of building on their work, and charge double what they did
to do better than break even. The third generation has to pay both
preceding ones and charge quadruple ...
Read your history: see how badly Charles Dickens got burnt in America.

He did?
When he was writing America didn't have any copyright laws while the
rest of the civilized world did. He got ripped off left, right and
center in America and never saw a penny from all the books sold there.

Did he actually lose money -- have expenses related to American
editions of his books without being able to pay those expenses from
sales of American editions of his books? Or did he just not actually
make money from the Americas, without any going down the drain there
either?
You're right there. I'd like to see copyright and patents owned by the
creators, made non-transferable and terminating with the creator's
death. I think that would best reflect their original intent.

I'd like to see them gone. Failing that, compulsory licensing at a non-
ludicrous fee, with a person who has paid the royalty once having
lifetime rights to as many personal copies as he pleases and to do
whatever he pleases with these copies inside closed doors, and the
person who wants to distribute copies having a not-too-big fee per
copy to pay and not being allowed to be told simply "no". And a no-
fault clause, where if something is unattributed you may use it until
and unless someone with a credible copyright claim complains, and only
become liable for infringement if you continue to do so afterward.
Then there's no liability risk associated with trying to use or copy
orphan works and the like.

But I'd really like to see them plain gone. I don't think they are or
ever were necessary, and I don't think their continued existence will
ever be allowed to benefit anybody much save the already super-rich,
aside from the odd random handout to "prove" the system "works". They
infringe on peoples' property rights in their physical possessions and
enforcement attempts naturally attempt to invade peoples' privacy and
further infringe on their property rights. Their very existence seems
to create a slippery slope with a tendency for lawmakers, lobbyists,
and corporations to enter into a cycle of ratcheting the laws ever
worse over time, which alone is a strong indication of bad law. And
the costs they try to make easier to pay are coming down. Development
costs these days, given maximum efficiency:

Bulky physical inventions: still fairly high, but dropping with
automation, prototyping tools, ever-better computers and CAD software,
etc.; and you can typically make fair margins on physical items
without having a monopoly anyway.
Pharmaceuticals: clinical trials are the big cost center here. Should
probably be taxpayer-funded as part of health and public safety
spending.
Other biotech/bio research: patent licensing is the big cost center!
Drop patent law and the development costs here largely disappear.
(In both of the latter two there's also lab equipment, but you can buy
that just once and then develop multiple drugs or other things using
the same equipment each time.)
Software: coding and testing. With open source the burden can easily
be spread among the core developers, power users, and hobbyists,
reducing the cost to the core developers.
Computer chips: AMD and Intel competing did a lot to usher in faster,
cheaper, better systems for consumers in the past decade or so, versus
when Intel had an effective monopoly on the x86-compatible CPU. I
don't see any benefit to patents here.
Movies: A live-action special-effects film with production values
comparable to Star Wars Ep III can now be produced for about the cost
of an ordinary new car if you know how. Obviously Lucas didn't, or
simply had money to burn, I'm guessing the latter.
TV: see above.
Books: Book authors are notorious for graphorrhea; you could charge
them for the privilege and still they'd write. Day jobs can finance
book-writing, especially since book-writing actually proceeds better
when done part-time than when done full-time as back-burnering it for
a few hours can get you out of blocks and bring insights.

Anything I missed there?
 

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