Mark said:
Obviously I disagree. It may be a common usage in certain parts of the
world, but that doesn't make it correct grammar and more than slang
usage is correct.
Well, this is where the chips come down and we both confess that we have
no actual clue as to how common or uncommon ending your sentence with a
preposition is. Certain parts of the world for sure, but which parts for
certain?
Just because you "know" it's wrong, and I "know" it's not, doesn't make
either of us right, does it? We'd need to hunt down independent sources
and get our facts straight, rather than making appeals to authority --
so we'll probably have to agree to disagree on the particular issue, and
when I'm around you I'll have to be careful about what I end my
sentences with.
Try to reformulate that last sentence to comply with the vaunted rule,
by the way. It's instructive.
And what, pray, are any rules of grammar but "because thats how it
is"? Be sensible.
Linguistics is a science. That is, we can study language, formulate
hypotheses, and test these. The difference between "because we say so"
and "because that's how it is" should be immediately obvious now.
Whether a grammatical rule is "real" is something that can be made more
or less plausible by observing actual application.
What complicates the issue enormously, however, and what is at the heart
of our disagreement, is the fact that language is man-made (some would
claim wholly, most only partially). In a sense, language is "whatever we
make of it". So in that sense, you're certainly right. If you say
sentences should not end with prepositions because that's ungrammatical,
who am I to say that's a silly, arbitrary rule? So is declining
pronouns. Yet someone who refuses to decline is criticized for poor
grammar, and rightly so. The rules are not imaginary or a free-for-all;
there's right and wrong.
So who gets to decide right and wrong? If I tell everyone not to use
"henceforth" anymore because it's an outdated construction that can
easily be replaced with the catchier "from that point on", and they
actually listen to me, then henceforth it's no longer proper English --
archaic at best.
But of course this almost never happens. Instead language mutates in the
wild, according to ill-understood processes that have very little to do
with rational thought, and all the more with how our language instincts
work. "Henceforth" acquires a mothball smell because people simply stop
using it, or use it only in certain contexts.
The rules of grammar as expounded by books, grammarians and classrooms
are at any time a compromise between what is actually spoken and what is
believed to be spoken; what of this is proper, and what not. The rules
as written down are invariably lagging behind actual usage -- mind you,
I say "lagging behind", implying that the rules are eventually adapted
to accommodate live usage, not the other way around. This is because
those who teach language (the part that can be taught) are always the
minority compared to those who use language, both in numbers and
influence. And in language, sad to say for the teachers, tyranny of the
majority does apply.
A change of language always starts out small. When one person does it,
it's wrong. When it's picked up by others, it's slang, or dialect. As it
grows it may become "mainstream", possibly still frowned upon or
"considered informal" by more conservative elements. This non-state can
persist for a very long time, even when everybody is doing it except
those who insist it's wrong because they remember a time when not
everyone was doing it. Eventually they succumb, and the official record
is updated to reflect actual use. This process is much faster for new
words than it is for changes in grammar, but the same principles apply.
Now, what does all this have to do with ending your sentences in a
preposition?! Simple: I believe this particular rule not to be part of
live English; English as spoken by well-intended people who respect a
consensus vision on what proper English should be, and who appreciate
clear communication (an elitist and snobby description, but you get my
drift). It's something cooked up by grammarians because they had visions
of how the language ought to look that had nothing to do with how it was
used.
In doing so, they did not *add* to the man-made construct called
English, they impoverished it by outlawing something for no other reason
than that it did not match their vision of English -- not because anyone
somehow failed to understand these constructions correctly, not because
clear communication was threatened. Grammarians are as free to try and
change the language as anyone else -- and everyone is equally free to
ignore them. The measure of a rule of grammar is how well it is
followed, not how sensible it is to its creators. This is a scary
prospect to those who believe that language is something we wholly
control by application of reason and sensibility, but the fact is, we don't.
I'm not trying to win an argument, just explaining where I'm coming
from. If I have to be any *more* sensible I'll have to invite you to
come over to my place for coffee or tea and we'll talk about this until
we're both blue in the face, but for now let's spare the other folks in
this ng, OK?
I respect your belief that not ending your sentences in
a preposition is a hallmark of proper grammar, though I disagree, and
will continue to merrily end my sentences in prepositions whenever I
think it's appropriate; the argument of who is right can be postponed.
S.
