New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough?

M

mogul

'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

/mogul %-)
 
I

ian douglas

Some would argue that vim is always good enough, especially with its plugin
system.

I bounce between vim and Sublime Text 2, and recently bought PyCharm went
it went on sale a week ago.
 
P

peter

'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

/mogul %-)
You going to create a war here. My honest advice, is just taste the
different ides that are out there.

- emacs
- vi
- aptana
- eclipse
- pycharm
- wingide.
- etc
- etc.

I currently use emacs for everything.
 
D

Daniel Fetchinson

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Welcome to the club!
Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
me?

Sure they will!
Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.

Again, welcome to the club!
I should have made the switch much earlier!

Indeed..

BTW, I also use vim only,
Daniel
 
T

Terry Reedy

'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained
on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
years too for me?

We try to avoid religious issues on this list.
Programming editors are a religious issue.
Therefore ... ;-)

Kidding aside, I am sure there is at least one core Python developer
using vim (as well as emacs). I believe there are one or more
'customization files' (or settings packages? don't know proper term for
vim) which you should be able to find if you have not already.

Some 'real IDE' users consider IDLE a limited beginner's toy. I use it
happily for what *I* do. I don't even use all the features if *does* have.

The one thing I would suggest is to make sure that you can run a python
file with the '-i' flag so that the interpreter drops into interactive
mode and gives a prompt instead of exiting when done. Then, if you get
an exception like
AttributeError: 'Foo' object has no 'frobulate attribute
and you know the Foo object is named foo, you can enter (in the
interpreter) 'dir(foo)' and perhaps see that it *does* has a 'fribulate'
attribute. (When IDLE runs the code in an editor window, it stops with
an interactive prompt in the shell window, and one can then enter code
such as above.)
Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python
thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

Welcome to the club.
 
T

Tim Chase

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I
do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the
next 20 years too for me?

Coding Python (and before that C, Pascal, and even some VB in there)
using vi/vim has worked for about 10 of the last 15 years of my
career. Most VCS concepts carry over, even if the exact technology
changes: I started off with zipfiles, then an unfortunate dance
with VSS & CVS before finding Subversion, then Mercurial, and now
git. So time spent with git won't be lost.

Some like the hand-holding of a full-blown IDE, but I prefer to get
intimate with the code and stick to a text editor.
Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this
python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

Alas, one of the worst parts about programming in Python is that I
now find it hard to go back to any of the other languages that I
know. :)

-tkc
 
M

Michael Torrie

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
years too for me?

I've never ever used an IDE with Python. With Python I can code for an
hour in vim and it runs with only maybe one minor syntax error. Often
the code runs first try, and runs correctly. Having a reference to the
python standard library is about the only thing I need. I typically use
python in a nutshell (dead tree) or just a browser page open to the
official docs. Fortunately Python's use of namespaces and allowing the
use of singleton objects (we call them modules!) eliminates must of the
verbose rubbish that Java's libraries have.
 
M

Michael Torrie

Alas, one of the worst parts about programming in Python is that I
now find it hard to go back to any of the other languages that I
know. :)

Amen. I find myself wishing for a python-like language for programming
Arduino boards.
 
M

Modulok

'Aloha!
I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
me?

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.
I should have made the switch much earlier!

/mogul %-)


No. If you want to test one out, great. If not, it's totally not required. I
use jEdit (text editor) and a bunch of command line tools on FreeBSD. I've
tried various IDEs and have yet to find one I totally agree with. Yet, I know
guys who use them and wouldn't part with them 'til death. I always end up back
in a customized text editor and a *nix command shell. I prefer it.

There's a lot of *very* skilled programmers in both camps.
-Modulok-
 
C

Cameron Simpson

| I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained
| on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
|
| Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
|
| Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
| or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
| years too for me?

Your Windows guys are weak. Use the tools that make you happy.

Personally, my normal programming env is an editor window (vim for me,
or vi) and a shell window. With the docs (2.x or 3.x, local
all-in-one-HTML file saved on my desktop for instant open at need and
offline use) in a browser window behind the terminals. (I'm usually on a
Mac, so terminals and browser side-by-side aren't so easy with its
desktop metaphor - it is a single keystroke to toggle back and forth
though).

| Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python
| thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

I thought that after biting the bullet a few years ago. I had (well,
still have, though it grows not these days) this personal Perl library
that kept me back, and hadn;t realised:

- how many batteries are already included in the stdlib

- how little of that library was current; re-implement the live stuff
(better and cleaner) and move on - very liberating

Cheers,
 
C

Chris Angelico

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

Welcome!

No, you don't *need* an IDE. Some people like them and are the more
productive for them, but if standalone tools have served you well for
20 years, they'll continue to do so. My current editor is SciTE,
because it supports all the languages I use (except LilyPond - must
look into that one day) and is available on Windows as well (I support
both platforms), but there are plenty of other excellent editors, and
vim is definitely one of them.

When I'm on Windows, I like to keep IDLE handy, but not for editing
source files. IDLE feels much nicer than command-line Python for
interactive work; the ability to recall entire blocks of code, rather
than individual lines, is hugely advantageous. (I don't do enough on
Linux IDLE to be able to call the difference there, but GNU readline
is so much better than the Windows interactive line reader that it's
not as big an issue.) To me, IDLE is my calculator, my test space for
python-list posts, and so on, but SciTE is where I write actual code.

ChrisA
 
T

TommyVee

"mogul" wrote in message

'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix
alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
me?

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.
I should have made the switch much earlier!

/mogul %-)

I'd say start with IDLE. I wouldn't exactly consider it an "IDE", but it
gives you a decent Python-oriented editor. For me it handles 95% of what I
need to do (for more ambitious projects, I use PyScripter on the Windows
platform).
 
R

Roy Smith

TommyVee said:
Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will
vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for
me?

You'll do fine with vim (or emacs, or whatever). You may find an IDE
convenient, but it's certainly not necessary.
 
S

Steven D'Aprano

'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on
unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or
will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years
too for me?

You only *need* an IDE when your environment has feeble stand-alone
tools, like Windows. As far as I am concerned, Unix (including Linux) is
itself the ultimate in hot-plug IDEs.

http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/

My own preferred IDE is:

* The KDE editor Kate[1];

* For preference, KDE's Konsole with multiple tabs, although any decent
terminal app will do:

- one tab for file system operations (e.g. renaming files) and source code
control using hg or git;
- one for running the script or stand-alone application I am writing,
e.g. "python myscript.py", or if a library, for running unittests
or doctests, e.g. "python -m doctest mylibrary.py"
- at least one for running an interactive Python shell for testing code,
reading documentation ("help(some_object)") etc.
- anything else needed e.g. monitoring system load with top, etc.

* A browser for searching the web and accessing the Python docs.

I've never really got into automatic refactoring tools, but if I needed
something more powerful than my editor's Find And Replace, I would
investigate Bicycle Repair Man, or Rope. At a pinch, there's always sed,
although I'm not a sed expert. (I can just about spell it... *wink*)

I'm sure that IDEs have their good points, but in my experience whatever
good points they have are overshadowed by the negatives (e.g. a clunky
editor that doesn't respond instantly when you type). A Swiss Army Knife
might be the best Swiss Army Knife money can buy, but in general it is no
substitute for a toolbox filled with independent tools.

In sports, it is said that "a champion team will beat a team of
champions", but in software the opposite is the case: a set of excellent
single-purpose tools is usually more powerful than a single tool that
tries to do it all.

Having said all that, if somebody has a personal preference for a
specific IDE, then good for them, I certainly wouldn't tell them that
they shouldn't use it.



[1] KDE 3 only. KDE 4 is unspeakable. Gedit from Gnome 2 is almost a good
substitute.
 
J

Jamie Paul Griffin

* mogul said:
'Aloha!

I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

/mogul %-)

If these are the tools you're used to, stick with them.

I have a tmux session with however many terminals open I need. I use the
traditional vi editor (not vim) and the python shell/interpreter as well
as the UNIX tools I need. A web browser and a separate urxvt window for
my mutt client when I need to mail a list for some help. That's it.

The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.
 
A

Andrew Berg

The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.

tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
some reason.

To answer the OP's question, it's mostly personal preference. Use
whatever makes you productive.
 
C

Chris Angelico

tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
some reason.

Hmm, interesting. I often use screen when I need a terminal on a
remote system (via ssh) and I'm mobile on my laptop, with periodic
connection dropouts. With screen(1), I can cope with that, but it's a
bit ugly at times.

*puts tmux on his "look into this some day" list*

ChrisA
 
K

Kwpolska

'Aloha! Hello!
I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

You are already awesome,
Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

and now you just became more awesome. (sans the Kubuntu part, but I
do not care.)
Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years toofor me?

Do you really think that those Windows idiots know what they are
talking about? It’s Windows, for fuck’s sake. The only OSin the
market that does not give a shit about POSIX. Windows does need an
IDE, then, because it is really hard to do anything useful without
one. Sure, this mail was sent from Windows, but I am using it for
gaming purposes. If I want to do some programming, Linux is the
proper environment. For me, it is Arch Linux with KDE and Konsole,
running tabs of vim (with [python-mode][]) and ipython. And other
useful tools (among others, Chrome with the docs.)

[python-mode]: https://github.com/klen/python-mode
Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

That is great news.
 
G

gst

Le jeudi 27 décembre 2012 21:01:16 UTC+1, mogul a écrit :

holà !
I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

About same than me, though I had not to use/work with perl for new projects, only in maintaining some existing stuffs in some previous jobs.

Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years toofor me?

Obviously I have same comments than others ;) though I think it mainly depends on the project.. I do think/experience that big projects get some real advantage of advanced IDE, like eclipse/pycharm and others "big" python IDE.. Now which one to use is mainly a matter of taste, as always.

Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing.

as others said: welcome to the club :)

I should have made the switch much earlier!

Don't be afraid of the late switch : you'll very quickly make amazing stuffs with Python and anyway it's (always) better late than never and it could be better now than some few years ago (I begin to make the switch about 3-4years ago and now I have the luck to work for a company where I'm 100% working with Python :)).
Python3(.2+) effectively corrects some, I'd say, youth problems related to python2 and it's now quite highly deployed and about all majors libraries are already supporting it, if not they are about all on their way to do it sooner than later ;)

/mogul %-)

good work/fun with Python,

greg.
 

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