python is going to die! =(

[julio]

Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.


-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.

 

[Jeremy Bowers]

It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

C# is that-a-way --->

HTH.

 

[Abe Mathews]

There are non-caffeinated brands out there that really do taste just
as good as the high-test. Really.

I'll be honest, I have little experience with IDE's. Every time I've
used one it takes me about 5 minutes to be wishing again for Emacs and
a command line to work with. I'm not a grizzled old veteran; I'm not
as experienced as 99% of this lis,; and I'm probably not much of a
programmer - but - I find I work better with Emacs than an IDE. So
the fact that there isn't a good IDE available isn't that big of a
deal to me. Perhaps I don't realize what I'm missing. Perhaps I'm
better off blissfully ignorant.

As for C# "killing" Python? I don't think so. There are still plenty
of folks programming in Fortran (and heck, some still in COBOL) for
crying out loud. C is still studied, used, and taught, even though
C++ was should have supplanted it. Maybe at some point Python will
stop being a major development language, but that doesn't mean it's
going to die.

Languages are tools, plain and simple. You appear to have found a
tool that works better for you in the methods that you prefer to work
under. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of someone else's
preferred tool. Just because you like your table saw, that doesn't
mean that the usefulness of my old handsaw is diminished, it just
means we have additional options available. Options are a GOOD thing.

Abe Mathews

 

[Rene Pijlman]

Abe Mathews:

the fact that there isn't a good IDE available

I use WingIDE, and I don't know what I'm missing. It just works for the
occasional debugging, and what else is there?

 

[DilbertFan]

Do what you like to do. Do what's fun. What does Julio like to do? Do that,
Julio.


"Self-trust is the first secret of success."
- Ralph Waldo Emerson

 

[julio]

Abe Mathews wrote:

As for C# "killing" Python? I don't think so. There are still plenty
of folks programming in Fortran (and heck, some still in COBOL) for
crying out loud. C is still studied, used, and taught, even though
C++ was should have supplanted it. Maybe at some point Python will
stop being a major development language, but that doesn't mean it's
going to die.

Languages are tools, plain and simple. You appear to have found a
tool that works better for you in the methods that you prefer to work
under. That doesn't diminish the usefulness of someone else's
preferred tool. Just because you like your table saw, that doesn't
mean that the usefulness of my old handsaw is diminished, it just
means we have additional options available. Options are a GOOD thing.

Abe Mathews

If you consider a language used by 5 crazy guys not being dead then
fine.And maybe you can see languages as just interchangeable tools when you
just develop some custom system scripts, but when 90% of the developers
need to consider how many developers you will find to start a proyect, or
how the tools that increase your productivity are ,things looks diferent.

It is exactly as you said, options are good , and there are no options for a
real python ide other than the wingide guys sells their ide for a
ridiculously 200$ because they have no competition or because no one realy
cares about a real python ide.

 

[Simon John]

Don't feed the troll.

If he needs an IDE, then he is not a programmer, he's a code monkey,
just like Java guys - they're a dime a dozen as they can't code, they
rely on the auto-completion and drag'n'drop of visual IDEs.

 

[julio]

Do what you like to do. Do what's fun. What does Julio like to do? Do
that, Julio.

mmm , i like to program , i like open source i hate m$ , i like python , i
dont like c# cause its still in m$ domains , i like c# monodevelop and
sharpdevelop and there is no real python ide avaiable so i dont have to
memorize the 2000 libraries and functions and their behavior to think about
programing seriusly, and the python proyects,adoption and development is
decreasing more and more. so ..

 

[Nikos Kouremenos]

Sorry but there is no another way, c# .net and mono are going to rip
python, not because python is a bad lenguage, but because is to darn old
and it refuses to innovate things, to fix wrong things, just because
retarded backwards compatibility and because the python comunity and
developers refuses to consider tools as being almost as important as the
language itself.

What does c# .net has that python doesnt ? (significant features)

-- tools,tools,tools : have people that likes python ever used an ide? i
mean a good ide, the one that saves you a lot of time, and makes you
productive.

looks like they havent, they think new people is willing to practice emacs
for 6 months before even thinking about being productive, not to mention
you have to learn 20 years old list, and low level c stuff to have fully
advantage. Those guys are realy happy with their stuff that totaly,
completly refuses to try a new tool, a new tool that 'is' better, like say,
an ide??.

Then we have the , you just need a text editor. This is realy amazing,
tecnology improves, people have to change their way of thinking, i realy
cant count the number of text editors avaiable for python, with basicaly
just syntax highlighting.For example, idle :

idle is just a text editor with syntax color,nothing else, then you see
that half of buttons are so fucking retarded things that you never
need,indentation stuff, replace tabs and all crap that you never realy
need, the class browser and path browser were in the right way, before they
got abandoned with just the most basic low functionality.

No help in real programing? why? why do i need to press a retarded button
to indent-deindent reindent stuff but i dont need help with integrated help
system , code completion , source assistant , a freaking decent calltips
support, etc ? It realy makes no sense , no sense at all.

Why do these people keep reinventing text editors again and again and again
to just add some retarded functionality that noone ever needs? pycrust ,
drpython, leo , idle , eclipse plugins(py editors with color) they all love
to reinvent the wheel instead of trying to work together on some common
project to do something usefull, boy if i want a text editor with syntax
color i just use vim,or kate or something.

For the C # Side there IS :

sharp develop, wich is going to be ported to linux and mac, and it is even
better than vstudio! is open source .

monodevelop , which is a little inestable but very very usable , and has
real features!! proyect browsing , full calltips ,code completion,source
help, doc help system , you know , productivity features.


-- C # is almost perfetly designed, python is very well designed but it has
some crap that obscurize it and is not going to be removed because of the
damn backwards compatibility thing, C # has all the advantages there is
new ,it has learned from other languages mistakes. Python must break
backward compatibility to be at the same level of play.
At least python has just a few problems in this area compared to java,which
is 50% crap , just to hold backwards compatibility.

-- C # is easy to use,fast apps coding (as python) but!! it has all the
advantages of a compiled language , like less bugs concerning silly types
mistakes , ides and tools can take much much more advantage of static
typing , it is much much much faster , and finally is much more readable
than python since i dont have to be guessing in the woods to know what type
of value a function return , or what types are the functions argument or
WTF does 'return MOM' means?

-- C # is killing python, first the gnome guys dont know what to choose for
their core system development , if mono-C # ? or java ? the only reason C #
hasnt being choosen is because of legal issues, and java? well it realy
sucks so no surprise , but is considered just because eclipse wich is the
most kick ass ide ever. AND they dont even consider python for a high level
language to choose!!

Look at source-forge,(around) python : 3000 proyects , C # 1500 proyects
and C# is much younger than python, not to mention mono is new!! 2 times
more C # proyects are started than python proyects by month, so very soon
C# is going to completly replace python in their areas. Not to mention that
C# proyects are generaly bigger, compared to small command line tools,
python proyects.

I think is a fact, reality , there is just no way python is going to
survive, i would be happy if someone knows or see something i dont ,
because i realy like python, but : C # which has all the m$ licenses and
crap involved is so superior to python in so many ways, its not even
funny,and C# has serius tools, ides ,etc. Look at
nhibernate,nunit,njasper,the super sharp-develop ,monodevelop,etc. BTW
wingware has a very nice ide, but close sourced and at a price of 200$ for
os is ridiculous,and their personal edition is pure crap, no
code-assistant ? lol. Is there a posibility python survives 2 years more at
least?

Btw , nice quotes on python site : "Python has been an important part of
Google since the beginning, and remains so as the system grows and evolves.
Today dozens of Google engineers use Python, and we're looking for more
people with skills in this language." said Peter Norvig, director of search
quality at Google, Inc.

But the google code jam, the one google searchs for new hackers to join
their lines is only for c# , java , c++ , nice irony , lie,lie.

Juilio do what you like
go buy VS.net and leave clpy out of this.
a lot of devs don't need IDE working with Python
but if you really do want one, buy:
http://www.thekompany.com/products/blackadder/

oh and btw, there's also IronPython and 'boo'.
HTH

 

[Chris S.]

Don't feed the troll.

If he needs an IDE, then he is not a programmer, he's a code monkey,
just like Java guys - they're a dime a dozen as they can't code, they
rely on the auto-completion and drag'n'drop of visual IDEs.

That's a little unfair (and trollish) of IDE users. Microsoft doesn't
spend millions developing it's IDEs just for fun. IBM doesn't support
projects like Eclipse because they want more "stupid untalented code
monkeys". An IDE can be invaluable in a large project. The near default
availability of simplistic IDEs like IDLE and Pythonwin is be proof
enough of their inherent value.

 

[Istvan Albert]

go away, troll

 

[julio]

C# is that-a-way --->

HTH.

So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :

monodevelop is free
sharpdevelop is free and is going to be ported to linux next version

 

[Cliff Wells]

So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ? again :

The fundamental problem with your arguments/complaints is that you
somehow think that someone, somewhere on this list owes you something.
Python (unlike C#, Mono being an exception) is, for the most part, a
volunteer effort. I suppose next you'll be going to the local food
shelter and complaining that their sandwiches can't compete with
McDonalds.

If you want an IDE and you know what makes a good one, then you should
write one. Better yet, help out on one of the existing ones (i.e. Boa
Constructor, Anjuta) and help shape it into what you think an IDE should
be.

Regards,
Cliff

 

[Maurice LING]

I beg to differ...

If you consider a language used by 5 crazy guys not being dead then
fine.

There are people still using dBASE III and dBASE IV. At least, Rip Curl
(surf ans sports apparels) are using it big time. People thought that
dBASE is dead, way dead, and nobody uses or learns it anymore. Yes, the
market for dBASE IV is really tiny, but there are even small numbers of
programmers to support and to maintain legacy systems. You don't just
snap the fingers and world-wide systems change. In the end, these small
groups of people working on dBASE IV are earning big bucks.

I won't be surprised to find QBASIC still in use somewhere.

Sad to say, spagetti codes written in COBOL still needs to be maintained...

And maybe you can see languages as just interchangeable tools when you

just develop some custom system scripts, but when 90% of the developers
need to consider how many developers you will find to start a proyect, or
how the tools that increase your productivity are ,things looks diferent.

True to say that IDE helps many programmers, especially beginners. But
do note that Java certification exams tests emphasizes on the SDK
itself. Make, GNU Make, Ant etc etc is still the norm today and I don't
see a movement of IDE-sizing them.

It is exactly as you said, options are good , and there are no options for a
real python ide other than the wingide guys sells their ide for a
ridiculously 200$ because they have no competition or because no one realy
cares about a real python ide.

I am using Eclipse with pydev support and Jython support. It works fine,
although I am hoping to see improved versions of it.

 

[Kirk Job-Sluder]

The fundamental problem with your arguments/complaints is that you
somehow think that someone, somewhere on this list owes you something.

Bingo.

In addition, the argument that such and such a language is going to
wither away and "die" in the face of the popularity of another language
is an old troll that's been heard many times before about languages that
amazingly still find themselves to be the right tool for a specific job.
Bourne, awk and sed didn't vanish with perl. C++ didn't vanish in the
face of Java and Visual Basic.

If you want an IDE and you know what makes a good one, then you should
write one. Better yet, help out on one of the existing ones (i.e. Boa
Constructor, Anjuta) and help shape it into what you think an IDE should
be.

And if his isn't willing to participate in improving existing IDEs then
complaining about it on c.l.python is a waste of his time and ours. (Of
course, I can use a good waste of time right now.

 

[Maurice LING]

Languages don't die, dying is a personified concept. Languages are just
less use or more used.

Is latin dead? Think again, the term "doctor" is latin. All your medical
doctors have MBBS (Medicus Baccalaureus, Bachelor of Surgery)...

 

[Jeremy Bowers]

So am i missing something ? are any of my arguments wrong ?

Your arguments are *boring*. You think in zero-sum terms. I wouldn't
refute your "arguments", I'd have to refute your entire boring
*philosophy*. If I shared your philosophy, I'd be in either Java or .NET.
Python isn't .NET, isn't going to be .NET, *shouldn't* be .NET just
because some random "julio" wants Python to be .NET. Obligatory mentioning
of IronPython and standard exhortation to go forth and Google.

You weren't arguing, you were declaring and trolling. Meeting your
trolling with arguments is the wrong answer.

Again, C# and its community, wherein I'm sure you'll find a lot of
support and agreement, is that-a-way --->

 

[Jeremy Bowers]

In addition, the argument that such and such a language is going to wither
away and "die" in the face of the popularity of another language is an old
troll that's been heard many times before about languages that amazingly
still find themselves to be the right tool for a specific job. Bourne, awk
and sed didn't vanish with perl. C++ didn't vanish in the face of Java
and Visual Basic.

Which is an elaboration of what I meant by "boring". Been here, heard
this, ain't worth refuting due to fundamental misconceptions.

 

[julio]

go away, troll

Nice argument.

And my the facts are not just about ides, as i mentioned in the original
mail. Is people so close minded to resist change ? things change , is
human's nature to resist the change.

But am i lying? am i missing something ? is python just suited for small
system programing scripts ? why does gnome team doesnt even bother to
consider python as an option, but considers java just because eclipse?

http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/applications/0,39020384,39166682,00.htm

what about google ?

http://www.topcoder.com/pl/?&module=Static&d1=google04&d2=overview

what about sourceforge ?

http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=160

But why so much resistence to the change ? is the denyal of reality fine?
why dont you care? i wouldnt care if i used python for small system
scripts.

 

[Kirk Job-Sluder]

Nice argument.

An accurate one though, but I'm feeling bored.

And my the facts are not just about ides, as i mentioned in the original
mail. Is people so close minded to resist change ? things change , is
human's nature to resist the change.

What are you advocating for? Better IDEs, or abandoning python? You've
complained a lot, but you have not really said much about how the people
who use python should change.

But why are you so closed minded to resist the possibility that many
people find python to be *a* solution for the problems that *they*
solve.

I mean, if you don't like working with python, go forth, find a language
you love, marry it, and make lots and lots of happy programs. Why
complain about the relationship other people have with their favorite
programming languages?